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I don't mean reading law school confidential and regretting the four hours or spending money on LEEWS and feeling like it did nothing.

I mean following all of Arrow's advice, or reading every hornbook, or every advice book you can find and feeling like you should have just gone in cold.

Reason I ask is I'm basically doing that. I've unintentionally read (I read a lot) most of the advice books, OneL, watched the Paper Chase, read all of the advice columns on TLS, and am starting to delve into Gannon's E&Es and have already ordered LEEWS.

Basically, does anyone have gunner's remorse?

I don't have anything to say besides great avi. Lionel hutz is my lawyer inspiration

I read GTM. Didn't help. 0L prep mostly doesn't do anything because each class is geared towards a specific professor. While I didn't do extensive prep, looking back, I feel that no amount of prep would have prepared me for law school.

Just enjoy your summer. I know you won't listen (because I didn't, despite others telling me not to 0L prep), but if anything, just browse through the material and don't stress about memorizing a bunch of stuff.

This is the opposite of the question you asked, but I did zero prep, and I am so glad about that. Anything I could have done just would have stressed me out, and wouldn't've helped me with my classes.

0L here, but frankly you couldn't pay me enough to do the 1L prep things you just mentioned.

It'll be a miracle if I buy getting to maybe because that shits like 30 bucks

In august I'll consult a few of the "how to do well in law school" threads on tls and call it a day

I did pretty extensive prep 0L summer. Was a completely useless endeavor that provided little to no help in the end. Any advantage I had on the first few days of law school was completely gone come exam time. I used to be outspoken on these forums against doing 0L prep (since there are so many more important and useful things you could be doing 0L summer). But I gave up since the neurotic are going to do it anyway.

Clemenceau wrote:0L here, but frankly you couldn't pay me enough to do the 1L prep things you just mentioned.

It'll be a miracle if I buy getting to maybe because that shits like 30 bucks

In august I'll consult a few of the "how to do well in law school" threads on tls and call it a day

The e-book was on sale for half of that on Amazon recently.

Hikkomorist wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:0L here, but frankly you couldn't pay me enough to do the 1L prep things you just mentioned.

It'll be a miracle if I buy getting to maybe because that shits like 30 bucks

In august I'll consult a few of the "how to do well in law school" threads on tls and call it a day

The e-book was on sale for half of that on Amazon recently.

Yeah that's how I read it. Most of them--including the E&Es--are on eBook now. PLS is the only one I had to physically order, although I did order hard copies of the E&Es

nreese970 wrote:

Hikkomorist wrote:

Clemenceau wrote:0L here, but frankly you couldn't pay me enough to do the 1L prep things you just mentioned.

It'll be a miracle if I buy getting to maybe because that shits like 30 bucks

In august I'll consult a few of the "how to do well in law school" threads on tls and call it a day

The e-book was on sale for half of that on Amazon recently.

Yeah that's how I read it. Most of them--including the E&Es--are on eBook now. PLS is the only one I had to physically order, although I did order hard copies of the E&Es

For a bunch of topics, E&E isn't really the best supplement. Sure, for torts or civ pro its probably the best you are going to find, but for things like crim law or contracts, there are better supps. This is why you shouldn't be buying this stuff in the summer before school starts. As a general matter, your school library will have almost every supplement you need. And supplements are the kind of books you only need from time to time anyway, so its no issue to just hit the library for it. Plus, by waiting until school starts, you can see if your prof has a recommendation for a supp that correlates particularly well with his take on the material.

And for the record, your approach is all wrong. Reading E&E's and doing LEEWS in the summer before law school is time wasted that you could be putting to much better use. Again, I was you about 5 years ago, and it was a mistake.

I could imagine people regretting substantive prep - attempting to learn the law before getting to law school. If you think you know torts because you read the E&E, it could actually disrupt how you approach the course, and in turn the precise formulation of the law you're drawing from on the exam. Professors only teach what they teach, and if you're using a hornbook cold instead of grabbing info from it to supplement what you actually covered in class, that could screw you up.

For just neurosis about how to prep, what exams are like, reading guides or getting to maybe, I can't imagine anybody regretting it. It's useful and not highly time consuming. I don't think people are meaningfully behind if they don't do it, but I also don't see it as a waste.

Dear 0L,

This is quite possibly one of the last "free" summers you'll have. Enjoy it. Seriously. 1L is a grind and doing substantive prep work is going to leave you burned out well before finals.

Moreover, as discussed above, there's a chance it will interfere with learning the law as your professor teaches it (e.g., your professor will be telling you his/her take on the law/policy, and you'll be thinking about how you know better because you read an E&E or other supplement over the summer... hint: you're not trying to learn the law, you're trying to learn your professor's take on the law).

Read Getting to Maybe, or don't. Here's the gist: when confronted with an issue, argue both sides. I didn't find the book particularly helpful, but you can knock it out in an afternoon.

nreese970 wrote:I don't mean reading law school confidential and regretting the four hours or spending money on LEEWS and feeling like it did nothing.

I mean following all of Arrow's advice, or reading every hornbook, or every advice book you can find and feeling like you should have just gone in cold.

Reason I ask is I'm basically doing that. I've unintentionally read (I read a lot) most of the advice books, OneL, watched the Paper Chase, read all of the advice columns on TLS, and am starting to delve into Gannon's E&Es and have already ordered LEEWS.

Basically, does anyone have gunner's remorse?

Jesus Christ. Do you not have a job

DON'T DO ANYTHING. You have no idea what the teacher is going to emphasize in the course. You're just going to be filling your head with useless crap that you'll forget anyways. Professors are supposed to teach. Learn from the professors, not a random supplement. I used E&Es to study starting half way through or towads the end of the semester (to supplement, not to learn). The E&Es didn't really make much sense until my course had covered the material.

I think reading advice threads on TLS about study methods is good, but I wouldn't mess with the actual substantive material.

Clemenceau wrote:0L here, but frankly you couldn't pay me enough to do the 1L prep things you just mentioned.

It'll be a miracle if I buy getting to maybe because that shits like 30 bucks

In august I'll consult a few of the "how to do well in law school" threads on tls and call it a day

You're on the right track. I never read GTM since pretty much anything you would need to know is covered better on TLS anyways if you search around.

FWIW OP, it sounds like you're on track to burn out pretty badly, and let me tell you there is a point where everyone burns out during 1L. Don't do this to yourself.

As someone who has been there, here are a few things you can do 0L summer to actually get some tangible benefit that will give you a leg up:

1. Update your resume and have it ready before school even starts - If you want any of the competitive 1L summer jobs, you will be applying right around the time of finals. The more time you have to study for finals, the better, so have the resume all set and ready.

2. Draft cover letter templates for the types of jobs you may want - Its the corollary of #1. If you think you may be applying to fed. judge internships, or firm summer positions, or public interest organizations, make a stock cover letter template. You can easily tweak and revise it later, but you don't want to be starting from scratch writing a cover letter while you should be outlining and studying for finals

3. Try and improve your typing speed and accuracy - Exams are often button-mashers, so you will be handicapped if you are particularly slow at typing. Spend some time improving your typing speed and you will be rewarded for it.

4. Network with alums of your soon-to-be school - Nothing to go crazy with, but I reached out to some young alums of my school to ask about their experiences, good professors to take, good restaurants around the school, etc. I just picked their brains a bit, and almost everyone I contacted was more than happy to chat. And this networking was an immense help come OCI since nearly everyone passed along my resume and got me extra interviews. Networking is a slow and steady marathon, and the earlier you start, the better. Again, nothing to go crazy with, but it can definitely help.

5. Learn about law school exams - They are very different from undergrad exams, and the sooner you flip your mental switch, the better. As opposed to substantive prep, I would recommend reading online guides on law school exams, maybe skim Getting to Maybe, or something like that (though you will need to re-read later in the semester for it to all make sense). You can be the substantive master of law doctrine, but still screw it up if you don't understand the structure and style of law school exams.

6. Spend some time to self-reflect, clear your head, and ask yourself what you want to get out of this whole process - This is your last free moment before the marathon begins. It is very important that your head be fresh and clear going into it, with a sense of purpose, and with certain goals in mind. I call this a form of constructive relaxation, in which you are both easing your mind, but also setting yourself up for future success.

Any of these would be better uses of your time compared to substantive prep. Many people on here have already said why 0L substantive prep is a bad idea. But I wanted to answer the inevitable follow up of "well, if I don't do 0L prep, and I don't want to sit around and do nothing, what should I do?"

I don't regret not having prepped for law school before starting. So take that for whatever it's worth.

kaiser wrote:As someone who has been there, here are a few things you can do 0L summer to actually get some tangible benefit that will give you a leg up:

1. Update your resume and have it ready before school even starts - If you want any of the competitive 1L summer jobs, you will be applying right around the time of finals. The more time you have to study for finals, the better, so have the resume all set and ready.

2. Draft cover letter templates for the types of jobs you may want - Its the corollary of #1. If you think you may be applying to fed. judge internships, or firm summer positions, or public interest organizations, make a stock cover letter template. You can easily tweak and revise it later, but you don't want to be starting from scratch writing a cover letter while you should be outlining and studying for finals

3. Try and improve your typing speed and accuracy - Exams are often button-mashers, so you will be handicapped if you are particularly slow at typing. Spend some time improving your typing speed and you will be rewarded for it.

4. Network with alums of your soon-to-be school - Nothing to go crazy with, but I reached out to some young alums of my school to ask about their experiences, good professors to take, good restaurants around the school, etc. I just picked their brains a bit, and almost everyone I contacted was more than happy to chat. And this networking was an immense help come OCI since nearly everyone passed along my resume and got me extra interviews. Networking is a slow and steady marathon, and the earlier you start, the better. Again, nothing to go crazy with, but it can definitely help.

5. Learn about law school exams - They are very different from undergrad exams, and the sooner you flip your mental switch, the better. As opposed to substantive prep, I would recommend reading online guides on law school exams, maybe skim Getting to Maybe, or something like that (though you will need to re-read later in the semester for it to all make sense). You can be the substantive master of law doctrine, but still screw it up if you don't understand the structure and style of law school exams.

6. Spend some time to self-reflect, clear your head, and ask yourself what you want to get out of this whole process - This is your last free moment before the marathon begins. It is very important that your head be fresh and clear going into it, with a sense of purpose, and with certain goals in mind. I call this a form of constructive relaxation, in which you are both easing your mind, but also setting yourself up for future success.

Any of these would be better uses of your time compared to substantive prep. Many people on here have already said why 0L substantive prep is a bad idea. But I wanted to answer the inevitable follow up of "well, if I don't do 0L prep, and I don't want to sit around and do nothing, what should I do?"

This is all very, very good and pretty much the perfect answer to the 0L prep debate that's constantly going around. I spent a lot of time doing prep of all sorts as an 0L (some substantive but mostly test-skills related) and I wish I would have focused much more on (1) getting comfortable talking to professionals [which is a skill you might not need to practice but, if you're like I was and get anxious at the thought of sending someone an email asking for a professional interview, is one you should grab by the horns and develop NOW in order to get a leg-up on the other kids] by reaching out and talking to alums and lawyers in different fields and family friends and strangers; and (2) getting as many ducks in a row for 1L firm applications as possible. Get your cover letters for firm stuff ready (if you need guidance, google around and read here or check your school's career services sites for last years pdfs explaining the process to 1Ls) or at least judge-stuff/whatever you want to do. Having that to worry about/putting it off until after finals and hamstringing your chances is really suboptimal and getting ready to pull the trigger on your applications now will net you much more of an advantage (even grade-wise) than substantive prep (but test-prep is still good).

That said, I don't seem to have the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH A CIVPRO E&E DON'T YOU KNOW YOUR PROFESSOR MIGHT NOT EVEN COVER SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION AND YOU'LL BURN OUT IN OCTOBER!?!?"-feeling that most of TLS seems to have about substantive prep. I ended up doing really well and would make myself do more substantive prep if I could go back. NOTE: by substantive prep I mean practice WRITING OUT how a law/rule applies to a mini-fact pattern, not merely learning rules so you can recite them. The thing you need to practice is applying law to fact. The reason that reading GTM doesn't make a lot of sense yet, and the reason I think learning substantive laws as an 0L is okay, is that you can't practice it unless you know a little law and you can't know a little law until you learn it. I think going casually through the torts E&E and actually working out the problems (NOT just reading it and knowing the rules, which would be pretty worthless for the usually cited reasons), but actually applying the getting to maybe nitpicking that everyone talks about, in a word document under time constraints trying to make as many arguments on the section's questions as possible, could be beneficial. Also I'd tell myself to spend more time reading the civpro e&e so I could get a general overview of it ahead of time, but my prof was meh so I had to teach myself all the material eventually anyways. you don't need to learn all 6 subjects, remember you're not trying to learn the rules, you only need to know a handful of rules as means to the end of practicing the skill you'll do for all the marbles in about 5 months.

McGruff wrote:That said, I don't seem to have the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH A CIVPRO E&E DON'T YOU KNOW YOUR PROFESSOR MIGHT NOT EVEN COVER SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION AND YOU'LL BURN OUT IN OCTOBER!?!?"-feeling that most of TLS seems to have about substantive prep. I ended up doing really well and would make myself do more substantive prep if I could go back. NOTE: by substantive prep I mean practice WRITING OUT how a law/rule applies to a mini-fact pattern, not merely learning rules so you can recite them. The thing you need to practice is applying law to fact. The reason that reading GTM doesn't make a lot of sense yet, and the reason I think learning substantive laws as an 0L is okay, is that you can't practice it unless you know a little law and you can't know a little law until you learn it. I think going casually through the torts E&E and actually working out the problems (NOT just reading it and knowing the rules, which would be pretty worthless for the usually cited reasons), but actually applying the getting to maybe nitpicking that everyone talks about, in a word document under time constraints trying to make as many arguments on the section's questions as possible, could be beneficial. Also I'd tell myself to spend more time reading the civpro e&e so I could get a general overview of it ahead of time, but my prof was meh so I had to teach myself all the material eventually anyways. you don't need to learn all 6 subjects, remember you're not trying to learn the rules, you only need to know a handful of rules as means to the end of practicing the skill you'll do for all the marbles in about 5 months.

Honestly, I beat the drums against substantive 0L prep harder than anybody, but nothing you wrote is unreasonable. I do it because TLS has horrific rubberized walls and easily turns into a nightmare disaster echo-chamber/arms race. Next thing you know campus psychiatrists are overwhelmed a month earlier than usual

I still believe substantive prep is not necessary, but what you describe, especially with the strong focus on exam skills, makes sense.

If there was a pattern to my 1L grades, it was that the less work I did for a class the better. I'm not just talking about pre-law school, I'm talking during the year too.

Civ Pro was the only class I looked at a horn book for over the summer. Civ Pro 1 was my lowest grade, civ pro 2 was my next lowest.

The problem with anecdotes about prepping is that you really have nothing to compare it to. Any given person will only do 1L once, and 1L can feel very random. Case in point: my first semester my wife was having a major health crisis, and I barely studied. Median grades. Second semester, all was well and I studied plenty. Median grades.

Anyway, the one thing I might suggest is to review some basic civics and terminology. Just read some wikipedia articles, review the basics of the court system, etc.

thesealocust wrote:

McGruff wrote:That said, I don't seem to have the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH A CIVPRO E&E DON'T YOU KNOW YOUR PROFESSOR MIGHT NOT EVEN COVER SUBJECT MATTER JURISDICTION AND YOU'LL BURN OUT IN OCTOBER!?!?"-feeling that most of TLS seems to have about substantive prep. I ended up doing really well and would make myself do more substantive prep if I could go back. NOTE: by substantive prep I mean practice WRITING OUT how a law/rule applies to a mini-fact pattern, not merely learning rules so you can recite them. The thing you need to practice is applying law to fact. The reason that reading GTM doesn't make a lot of sense yet, and the reason I think learning substantive laws as an 0L is okay, is that you can't practice it unless you know a little law and you can't know a little law until you learn it. I think going casually through the torts E&E and actually working out the problems (NOT just reading it and knowing the rules, which would be pretty worthless for the usually cited reasons), but actually applying the getting to maybe nitpicking that everyone talks about, in a word document under time constraints trying to make as many arguments on the section's questions as possible, could be beneficial. Also I'd tell myself to spend more time reading the civpro e&e so I could get a general overview of it ahead of time, but my prof was meh so I had to teach myself all the material eventually anyways. you don't need to learn all 6 subjects, remember you're not trying to learn the rules, you only need to know a handful of rules as means to the end of practicing the skill you'll do for all the marbles in about 5 months.

Honestly, I beat the drums against substantive 0L prep harder than anybody, but nothing you wrote is unreasonable. I do it because TLS has horrific rubberized walls and easily turns into a nightmare disaster echo-chamber/arms race. Next thing you know campus psychiatrists are overwhelmed a month earlier than usual

I still believe substantive prep is not necessary, but what you describe, especially with the strong focus on exam skills, makes sense.

Yeah we don't disagree; I think my advice is likely to lead to a lot more 0Ls wasting their time and memorizing adverse possession elements than practicing applying law to fact (just because it's unintuitive and not like what they've done before). You're more worried about protecting law students from freaking out unnecessarily (see, e.g., the hospice thread) whereas I'm pretty resigned to the fact that by the time we're asking about 0L prep on TLS we clearly have a terrible and almost-always-incurable sickness that brought us to this point and will likely prevent us from being able to enjoy the finer things in life because we're worrying about whether we're striving hard enough. Spending tons of time reading guides about exam skills probably wasn't as wise as spending more time mountain climbing/socializing would have been but there was no way anyone could have talked me out of it; some people are just hopeless gunners.

TheUnicornHunter wrote:If there was a pattern to my 1L grades, it was that the less work I did for a class the better. I'm not just talking about pre-law school, I'm talking during the year too.

Yalright but correlation causation etc etc (setting aside the obviously nonsense explanation that the less you know about an area of law the better situated you are to apply it).

Also, OP, I forgot to mention that LEEWS is not as good as some say/definitely not sufficient or directly applicable for top schools but imo it is still an absolute must for any self-respecting self-doubting gunner's 0L prep routine. Also snag a used copy of Bramble Bush on amazon and read it. Seriously, seriously do this, it is so much better than Law School Confidential, One-L or the other typical intros.

nreese970 wrote:I don't mean reading law school confidential and regretting the four hours or spending money on LEEWS and feeling like it did nothing.

I mean following all of Arrow's advice, or reading every hornbook, or every advice book you can find and feeling like you should have just gone in cold.

Reason I ask is I'm basically doing that. I've unintentionally read (I read a lot) most of the advice books, OneL, watched the Paper Chase, read all of the advice columns on TLS, and am starting to delve into Gannon's E&Es and have already ordered LEEWS.

Basically, does anyone have gunner's remorse?

I think it definitely can be very helpful to prepare during the summer before law school if you're gunning for a top spot in your class. Most of my friends who graduated in the top 5% from HYS went into law school pretty much already knowing the black letter law. This is just my observation. I'm not sure if this is true at all school.

Well I guess your anecdote is better than mine then.

No regrets. I read a bunch of E&Es and did LEEWS. I think LEEWS was very helpful.

The only thing that you should do prepare for 1L is learn how to type fast. Seriously, that skill will not only help during 1L but will carry over into practice. Get that speed up to breakneck pace.