Top Law Schools

I've heard this often that the market will pick back up and the job market will get better. What do you think? If this topic has been beaten to death, tell me so, and I'll dig up the old thread and read up!

Preach. I certainly hope so....

PharmaLaw wrote:Preach. I certainly hope so....

I know every career, well almost every career, has its highs and lows. It's basically a cycle. I just want to have faith that we are out of this rut when we graduate.

Mumbo Jumbo.

They've been saying that since before I went to law school (2012). "Next year is the year!!"

minnbills wrote:Mumbo Jumbo.

They've been saying that since before I went to law school (2012). "Next year is the year!!"

Admittedly, 2015 has been much better for legal hiring than 2012. Still, I think it's unlikely that we will be going back to the legal market of a decade ago anytime soon. So I'm with Bills, completely unsubstantiated mumbo jumbo.

UVAIce wrote: Admittedly, 2015 has been much better for legal hiring than 2012. Still, I think it's unlikely that we will be going back to the legal market of a decade ago anytime soon. So I'm with Bills, completely unsubstantiated mumbo jumbo.

Really? I don't think things have changed

I think the current group graduating in that time frame will have better prospects than those graduating right now.

Tepidly stabilizing market, small graduating class, more LS transparency.

It seems to me that the main thing that has changed is that significantly fewer people are going to law school, which raises the percentage of JDs getting jobs without actually increasing the number of jobs.

TasmanianToucan wrote:It seems to me that the main thing that has changed is that significantly fewer people are going to law school, which raises the percentage of JDs getting jobs without actually increasing the number of jobs.

This.

TasmanianToucan wrote:It seems to me that the main thing that has changed is that significantly fewer people are going to law school, which raises the percentage of JDs getting jobs without actually increasing the number of jobs.

This is what I'm thinking of as well. I do approve of the anti law school raw raw raw. I law schools to be wiped of applicants only going because they haven't nothing better to do and think law=$$. Let those who actually are interested in practicing, become lawyers. I feel like the market would not be as oversaturated as it is, if the profession had more regimented steps. For instance, like med school requires certain classes that allow for you to pass the MCAT and proceed to med school. Law school is a free for all, it requires only a test that has nothing to do with law itself. I do feel like those who didn't know what to d just went to law school to have a flashy or prestigious career and money...

Blueberrypie wrote:

TasmanianToucan wrote:It seems to me that the main thing that has changed is that significantly fewer people are going to law school, which raises the percentage of JDs getting jobs without actually increasing the number of jobs.

This is what I'm thinking of as well. I do approve of the anti law school raw raw raw. I law schools to be wiped of applicants only going because they haven't nothing better to do and think law=$$. Let those who actually are interested in practicing, become lawyers. I feel like the market would not be as oversaturated as it is, if the profession had more regimented steps. For instance, like med school requires certain classes that allow for you to pass the MCAT and proceed to med school. Law school is a free for all, it requires only a test that has nothing to do with law itself. I do feel like those who didn't know what to d just went to law school to have a flashy or prestigious career and money...

What about the almost entirely standard 1L curriculum? Or the bar exam?

I think free money from the government and a total lack of understanding of what the practice of law actually entails are the more likely culprits.

Who knows when technology takes over doc review? soon probably

TasmanianToucan wrote:

Blueberrypie wrote:

TasmanianToucan wrote:It seems to me that the main thing that has changed is that significantly fewer people are going to law school, which raises the percentage of JDs getting jobs without actually increasing the number of jobs.

This is what I'm thinking of as well. I do approve of the anti law school raw raw raw. I law schools to be wiped of applicants only going because they haven't nothing better to do and think law=$$. Let those who actually are interested in practicing, become lawyers. I feel like the market would not be as oversaturated as it is, if the profession had more regimented steps. For instance, like med school requires certain classes that allow for you to pass the MCAT and proceed to med school. Law school is a free for all, it requires only a test that has nothing to do with law itself. I do feel like those who didn't know what to d just went to law school to have a flashy or prestigious career and money...

What about the almost entirely standard 1L curriculum? Or the bar exam?

I think free money from the government and a total lack of understanding of what the practice of law actually entails are the more likely culprits.

I don't know, what about it? This has no bearing on the quality of people entering law school. At 1l or bar exam they have already pass the threshold.

There are many people who decided to go to ls and flood the market, because they did not know what they wanted to do with their lives and figured law was a path to riches and prestige. then they get to be lawyers and they suck and complain about the profession. I know a lot and when I say a lot...I mean it, of lawyers who did so because of what they thought it would do for them, but cared nothing for the profession and were surely disappointed in the outcome and sucked at their job, because they did not possess the skills or desire to develop them.

Blueberrypie wrote:
I don't know, what about it? This has no bearing on the quality of people entering law school. At 1l or bar exam they have already pass the threshold.

There are many people who decided to go to ls and flood the market, because they did not know what they wanted to do with their lives and figured law was a path to riches and prestige. then they get to be lawyers and they suck and complain about the profession. I know a lot and when I say a lot...I mean it, of lawyers who did so because of what they thought it would do for them, but cared nothing for the profession and were surely disappointed in the outcome and sucked at their job, because they did not possess the skills or desire to develop them.

Are you a lawyer?

.

minnbills wrote:

Blueberrypie wrote:
I don't know, what about it? This has no bearing on the quality of people entering law school. At 1l or bar exam they have already pass the threshold.

There are many people who decided to go to ls and flood the market, because they did not know what they wanted to do with their lives and figured law was a path to riches and prestige. then they get to be lawyers and they suck and complain about the profession. I know a lot and when I say a lot...I mean it, of lawyers who did so because of what they thought it would do for them, but cared nothing for the profession and were surely disappointed in the outcome and sucked at their job, because they did not possess the skills or desire to develop them.

Are you a lawyer?

It feels like it.

It was ugly before the recession. It's still ugly now. It will be ugly for the rest of our careers.

Law schools have been pumping out too many attorneys for years and underemployed/jobless attorneys aren't just going to lay down and die. They're going to keep fighting to survive in the profession. They'll be joined by the fresh, newly baptized attorneys year in and year out.

After the recession, expect to struggle to stay in the profession for the rest of your career, the same way attorneys struggled to stay in the profession before the most recent recession. Best keep that debt low and remember that the next recession is always just around the corner. Winter is always coming.

Skool wrote:It was ugly before the recession. It's still ugly now. It will be ugly for the rest of our careers.

Law schools have been pumping out too many attorneys for years and underemployed/jobless attorneys aren't just going to lay down and die. They're going to keep fighting to survive in the profession. They'll be joined by the fresh, newly baptized attorneys year in and year out.

After the recession, expect to struggle to stay in the profession for the rest of your career, the same way attorneys struggled to stay in the profession before the most recent recession. Best keep that debt low and remember that the next recession is always just around the corner. Winter is always coming.

I'm so lucky I dont have to take out a loan!

I do think the precession is filled with idiots who don't know how or even care about being a lawyer. Their outlook is bleak and their hopes and dreams crushed, because of a delusion the fed themselves. Hopefully this crushing weight will keep them ill-equipped to be a competitive condendor.

Sorry, but I have yet to meet 5 happy attorneys in my time and I've dealt with a lot. The happiest attorneys I met were in my family and others were high profile nyc attorneys whose only regret was not taking time to live their lives to the fullest while young.

Blueberrypie wrote:

Skool wrote:It was ugly before the recession. It's still ugly now. It will be ugly for the rest of our careers.

Law schools have been pumping out too many attorneys for years and underemployed/jobless attorneys aren't just going to lay down and die. They're going to keep fighting to survive in the profession. They'll be joined by the fresh, newly baptized attorneys year in and year out.

After the recession, expect to struggle to stay in the profession for the rest of your career, the same way attorneys struggled to stay in the profession before the most recent recession. Best keep that debt low and remember that the next recession is always just around the corner. Winter is always coming.

I'm so lucky I dont have to take out a loan!

I do think the precession is filled with idiots who don't know how or even care about being a lawyer. Their outlook is bleak and their hopes and dreams crushed, because of a delusion the fed themselves. Hopefully this crushing weight will keep them ill-equipped to be a competitive condendor.

Sorry, but I have yet to meet 5 happy attorneys in my time and I've dealt with a lot. The happiest attorneys I met were in my family and others were high profile nyc attorneys whose only regret was not taking time to live their lives to the fullest while young.

This is too harsh and doesn't get at the fundamental problems. The American economy doesn't offer enough opportunities to young people; law schools take advantage of this by offering a leaky temporary life-raft built with federal dollars.

So there's plenty of contempt to go around and while many of our classmates suck, I think some empathy is warranted.

Edit:

Also, it's not just prospective students feeding themselves bull shit. Last fall I listened to Bill Hoye of Duke sit in Morgan Lewis' Philadelphia offices and tell 0Ls how business was good at Morgan Lewis and how good things were in the legal profession generally. It was the exact same day Morgan Lewis announced its--um-- acquisition of Bingham.

It's in law schools' interests to bull shit. They always have and always will.

Skool wrote:

Blueberrypie wrote:

Skool wrote:It was ugly before the recession. It's still ugly now. It will be ugly for the rest of our careers.

Law schools have been pumping out too many attorneys for years and underemployed/jobless attorneys aren't just going to lay down and die. They're going to keep fighting to survive in the profession. They'll be joined by the fresh, newly baptized attorneys year in and year out.

After the recession, expect to struggle to stay in the profession for the rest of your career, the same way attorneys struggled to stay in the profession before the most recent recession. Best keep that debt low and remember that the next recession is always just around the corner. Winter is always coming.

I'm so lucky I dont have to take out a loan!

I do think the precession is filled with idiots who don't know how or even care about being a lawyer. Their outlook is bleak and their hopes and dreams crushed, because of a delusion the fed themselves. Hopefully this crushing weight will keep them ill-equipped to be a competitive condendor.

Sorry, but I have yet to meet 5 happy attorneys in my time and I've dealt with a lot. The happiest attorneys I met were in my family and others were high profile nyc attorneys whose only regret was not taking time to live their lives to the fullest while young.

This is too harsh and doesn't get at the fundamental problems. The American economy doesn't offer enough opportunities to young people; law schools take advantage of this by offering a leaky temporary life-raft built with federal dollars.

So there's plenty of contempt to go around and while many of our classmates suck, I think some empathy is warranted.

I can't provide any empathy to the select I described. However, I have empathy for the ones struggling partly on behalf of those who flood the market over delusions and lack of clear direction or path. There are too many of those who feel they are owed high salaries and lifestyle simply do to the fact that they are lawyers, rather than seeking out or embracing a passion for practicing law.

Skool wrote:

Blueberrypie wrote:

Skool wrote:It was ugly before the recession. It's still ugly now. It will be ugly for the rest of our careers.

Law schools have been pumping out too many attorneys for years and underemployed/jobless attorneys aren't just going to lay down and die. They're going to keep fighting to survive in the profession. They'll be joined by the fresh, newly baptized attorneys year in and year out.

After the recession, expect to struggle to stay in the profession for the rest of your career, the same way attorneys struggled to stay in the profession before the most recent recession. Best keep that debt low and remember that the next recession is always just around the corner. Winter is always coming.

I'm so lucky I dont have to take out a loan!

I do think the precession is filled with idiots who don't know how or even care about being a lawyer. Their outlook is bleak and their hopes and dreams crushed, because of a delusion the fed themselves. Hopefully this crushing weight will keep them ill-equipped to be a competitive condendor.

Sorry, but I have yet to meet 5 happy attorneys in my time and I've dealt with a lot. The happiest attorneys I met were in my family and others were high profile nyc attorneys whose only regret was not taking time to live their lives to the fullest while young.

This is too harsh and doesn't get at the fundamental problems. The American economy doesn't offer enough opportunities to young people; law schools take advantage of this by offering a leaky temporary life-raft built with federal dollars.

So there's plenty of contempt to go around and while many of our classmates suck, I think some empathy is warranted.

Edit:

Also, it's not just prospective students feeding themselves bull shit. Last fall I listened to Bill Hoye of Duke sit in Morgan Lewis' Philadelphia offices and tell 0Ls how business was good at Morgan Lewis and how good things were in the legal profession generally. It was the exact same day Morgan Lewis announced its--um-- acquisition of Bingham.

It's in law schools' interests to bull shit. They always have and always will.

In response to your edit,

I have heard lawyers say the market was good. They aren't lying but seeing in a bubble that surrounds their discipline. My relatives are lawyers, went to good schools and they will tell you he market is good. NO ONE THEY KNOW had problems finding a good or great paying job. In my expierence I hace witnessed both. Seton law grads land jobs at JP morgan for close or at 100k. I've seen NYlS students gain internship at high profile companies. It doesn't mean they will get hired but it is nice to land those opportunities considering a tough market. Also on the other hand I've heard of struggle stories from real estate/foreclosure lawyers who make less or at 45k.

Then you have those who are apart of the problem liek the Duke dude who lies bc he can't be a man and be straight up.

Blueberrypie wrote:

Skool wrote:

Blueberrypie wrote:

Skool wrote:It was ugly before the recession. It's still ugly now. It will be ugly for the rest of our careers.

Law schools have been pumping out too many attorneys for years and underemployed/jobless attorneys aren't just going to lay down and die. They're going to keep fighting to survive in the profession. They'll be joined by the fresh, newly baptized attorneys year in and year out.

After the recession, expect to struggle to stay in the profession for the rest of your career, the same way attorneys struggled to stay in the profession before the most recent recession. Best keep that debt low and remember that the next recession is always just around the corner. Winter is always coming.

I'm so lucky I dont have to take out a loan!

I do think the precession is filled with idiots who don't know how or even care about being a lawyer. Their outlook is bleak and their hopes and dreams crushed, because of a delusion the fed themselves. Hopefully this crushing weight will keep them ill-equipped to be a competitive condendor.

Sorry, but I have yet to meet 5 happy attorneys in my time and I've dealt with a lot. The happiest attorneys I met were in my family and others were high profile nyc attorneys whose only regret was not taking time to live their lives to the fullest while young.

This is too harsh and doesn't get at the fundamental problems. The American economy doesn't offer enough opportunities to young people; law schools take advantage of this by offering a leaky temporary life-raft built with federal dollars.

So there's plenty of contempt to go around and while many of our classmates suck, I think some empathy is warranted.

I can't provide any empathy to the select I described. However, I have empathy for the ones struggling partly on behalf of those who flood the market over delusions and lack of clear direction or path. There are too many of those who feel they are owed high salaries and lifestyle simply do to the fact that they are lawyers, rather than seeking out or embracing a passion for practicing law.

Most of the ones I've met just want to be able to discharge their debt through BK and start over.

The hiring market for corporate attorneys is actually pretty good right now. The M&A market can't really get much hotter. Don't know if that'll be the case 4 years from now. Chances are, we'll have a recession from now till then.

Blueberrypie wrote:I can't provide any empathy to the select I described. However, I have empathy for the ones struggling partly on behalf of those who flood the market over delusions and lack of clear direction or path. There are too many of those who feel they are owed high salaries and lifestyle simply do to the fact that they are lawyers, rather than seeking out or embracing a passion for practicing law.

In the above referenced talk, Dean Hoye also mentioned that "while your debt will also be considerable, your salaries will also be substantial." He was making the point about how Duke, Stanford, NYU, and Cornell (the schools represented on the panel that night) were not like some of the schools you've heard about in the news. Their schools were being painted with an unfairly broad brush.

Our classmates listen to these kinds of talks and they decide to take on substantial debt on the basis of them. Nevermind the fact that few people get and keep the best jobs long enough to pay off their debt.

After taking that kind of risk, partially on the Dean's words, yeah, some people feel that they are owed a certain salary and a certain lifestyle. The underlying assumption of any investment is that you're trying to make back more than what you put in. I don't necessarily see the reason for contempt, although, obviously no one should trust Dean Hoye. But it seems to miss the big picture to simply blame students and not save some for the other players.

And by the way, what is that lifestyle? I don't know if I want to live models and bottles, but I want to be able to afford a family, save for retirement, buy a house in a town with good schools, etc. Wanting and fighting for those things... does that make me entitled?

Lawyerrr wrote:The hiring market for corporate attorneys is actually pretty good right now. The M&A market can't really get much hotter. Don't know if that'll be the case 4 years from now. Chances are, we'll have a recession from now till then.

But... how many more jobs does this create? We are talking about the very top of the pyramid doing fancy ass M&A stuff. And are they asking for experienced attorneys or junior folks? I'm genuinely curious. That makes a difference for this conversation.

If you look at trends (which I do think are all gradually positive), It's likely that the class of 2018/2019 will have better job prospects than the class of, say, 2010. I think it's likely that the legal job market is going to continue to gradually improve (and that job prospects will continue to gradually improve -- a somewhat separate question driven not only by the supply of jobs but the demand for those jobs). I would not expect things in 2018/2019 to look as good as they did in the rosy days immediately prior to the recession (in 2006-2007, for example), however.

The crucial question, though, is not whether the job market is overall improving. It's whether the market at whatever school you end up in is improving--law hiring is sufficiently regional and sufficiently hierarchical that trends in NYC biglaw hiring will have close to no impact on second tier midwest regional schools. My sense is that not all schools are benefiting from the weak upwards trend in hiring. If I had to guess, I'd guess that the gradual improvement is going to help most the top regional schools and kids at the bottom half of the lower T-14s--the folks who seem to have been hit hardest by biglaw's reactionary cuts and the relative disappearance of midlaw.

Now's probably a notably better time to go to Georgetown, USC, or University of Wisconsin than five or so years ago. So, if you're looking to go to a respectable state school like the University of Maryland, or even to an elite regional an Emory or a Wash U, I'd feel much more bullish about your chances as a 2019 graduate than I would a 2013 graduate.* But if you're going to John Marshall in Chicago, well, you still shouldn't expect much. (And if you're going to HYS, things were swell during the recession and things will continue to be swell now that the job market's loosening up a bit.)

*I'd be pretty cognizant of regional hiring trends before just assuming that Emory, for example, is solid: Emory is a very respectable school, but your career prospects at Emory are going to be driven mostly by regional hiring trends in Atlanta and the south more generally. And Emory does have some national placement power. (Wisconsin, on the other hand, may not.) The more purely regional that a school is, the more closely that school's fortunes will be knit to that school's region. FWIW, my sense is that the T14 is mostly national, schools ranked roughly 15-30 are mostly regional, and schools outside of the top 30 or so are entirely regional.