Fordham Rising 3L Taking Question. . . Forum

[3L_At_Law]

Ask away.

[gentlemanscholar]

How have your experiences been with OCI, SA's, or the employment search in general?

[3L_At_Law]

How have your experiences been with OCI, SA's, or the employment search in general?

Going in to 2L OCI my grades were around the median. I had 6 EIW interviews, and then 2 other OCI interviews (weeks 1-8) but 0 callbacks. I interned 1L summer and 2L spring for federal judges. After OCI I didn't have much success until late spring. I mass mailed out to large firms at the end of summer/early fall. Mid-size in late fall and then in early spring to smaller/midsize firms. I tried to network as much as possible all 2L year. Networking landed my my spring internship, which in turn probably landed my my summer job (at least helped).

In late spring I interviewed with a few different places and accepted an offer at a firm (30 attorneys or so). This was one of the firms that I mass mailed out application materials to, so although the success rate of landing something through mass mail is low. . . it definitely is worth the time and effort. My summer has been an amazing experience (paid as well) and there is a decent chance that I will receive an offer to come back full time after graduation. I would have no problem coming back once I graduate.

I've also applied to federal clerkships. I've sent out hard copies out to 95 judges and have applied to almost everything on OSCAR. I've had luck landing interview(s) but unfortunately no offer.

Hope that answers your question . . . LMK if you have any more specific questions.

[gentlemanscholar]

Yes, thanks. I am just always interested in hearing anecdotes about job searches. Good luck with everything.

[MaxK1985]

How have your experiences been with OCI, SA's, or the employment search in general?

Going in to 2L OCI my grades were around the median. I had 6 EIW interviews, and then 2 other OCI interviews (weeks 1-8) but 0 callbacks. I interned 1L summer and 2L spring for federal judges. After OCI I didn't have much success until late spring. I mass mailed out to large firms at the end of summer/early fall. Mid-size in late fall and then in early spring to smaller/midsize firms. I tried to network as much as possible all 2L year. Networking landed my my spring internship, which in turn probably landed my my summer job (at least helped).

In late spring I interviewed with a few different places and accepted an offer at a firm (30 attorneys or so) that does bankruptcy/commercial law. This was one of the firms that I mass mailed out application materials to, so although the success rate of landing something through mass mail is low. . . it definitely is worth the time and effort. My summer has been an amazing experience (paid as well) and there is a decent chance that I will receive an offer to come back full time after graduation. I would have no problem coming back once I graduate.

I've also applied to federal clerkships. I've sent out hard copies out to 95 judges and have applied to almost everything on OSCAR. I've had luck landing interview(s) but unfortunately no offer.

Hope that answers your question . . . LMK if you have any more specific questions.

Hey, did you have any friends in the top 25%, how did they do at EIW? (also were they LR/LJ/MC?)

[3L_At_Law]

How have your experiences been with OCI, SA's, or the employment search in general?

Going in to 2L OCI my grades were around the median. I had 6 EIW interviews, and then 2 other OCI interviews (weeks 1-8) but 0 callbacks. I interned 1L summer and 2L spring for federal judges. After OCI I didn't have much success until late spring. I mass mailed out to large firms at the end of summer/early fall. Mid-size in late fall and then in early spring to smaller/midsize firms. I tried to network as much as possible all 2L year. Networking landed my my spring internship, which in turn probably landed my my summer job (at least helped).

In late spring I interviewed with a few different places and accepted an offer at a firm (30 attorneys or so) that does bankruptcy/commercial law. This was one of the firms that I mass mailed out application materials to, so although the success rate of landing something through mass mail is low. . . it definitely is worth the time and effort. My summer has been an amazing experience (paid as well) and there is a decent chance that I will receive an offer to come back full time after graduation. I would have no problem coming back once I graduate.

I've also applied to federal clerkships. I've sent out hard copies out to 95 judges and have applied to almost everything on OSCAR. I've had luck landing interview(s) but unfortunately no offer.

Hope that answers your question . . . LMK if you have any more specific questions.

Hey, did you have any friends in the top 25%, how did they do at EIW? (also were they LR/LJ/MC?)

I have numerous friends in the top 25% (LR and MC) and some friends in the top 33% (some LR some secondary journals, majority on MC) that landed summer jobs through OCI. My feeling from talking with others is that if you are top 25%, put some thoughts into your OCI bids, and are not terrible at interviewing you will have a pretty good shot at landing something through OCI.

[nightcheese]

First of all, congrats on the job! I'm leaning toward putting Fordham on my backup list. I've heard both positive and negative things about the school, so I'd like to hear your opinion.

Since someone already asked about OCI for the top 25%, how about others who are around median? Have their job search results been similar to yours?

How do you and your friends feel about your prospects after graduation? The school overall? Do you think Fordham was a good choice, or would you advise 0Ls to look elsewhere?

Also, I've only visited NYC and never lived there, so I'm curious about living expenses. Fordham puts COA at $27k/year. Would you say that's accurate? How far from school do you live, and how much is rent/utilities (ballpark figures are fine)?

[3L_At_Law]

First of all, congrats on the job! I'm leaning toward putting Fordham on my backup list. I've heard both positive and negative things about the school, so I'd like to hear your opinion.

Since someone already asked about OCI for the top 25%, how about others who are around median? Have their job search results been similar to yours?

How do you and your friends feel about your prospects after graduation? The school overall? Do you think Fordham was a good choice, or would you advise 0Ls to look elsewhere?

Also, I've only visited NYC and never lived there, so I'm curious about living expenses. Fordham puts COA at $27k/year. Would you say that's accurate? How far from school do you live, and how much is rent/utilities (ballpark figures are fine)?

When I was applying Fordham was my "backup" as well. I was waitlisted at Cornell/UCLA/Texas rejected from everything higher. The schools I was waitlisted at was my original cut-off, I told myself if I didn't get in to one of those I was going to sit out a year or two, re-take the LSAT and then reapply (I didn't take the LSAT until December of the year I applied). However, after talking to several attorneys about Fordham and what it could offer, I decided to go ahead and enroll.

So . . . should I have re-applied to see if I could have gotten in to a better school, probably. But with that being said I love Fordham. I love NYC, I love my classmates (for the most part) and I love how receptive alums have been when I've been networking. Has it been tough-yes. At times I thought I may have made a terrible decision, but right now heading into my third year of law school, I believe that enrolling at Fordham was the best decision I have ever made. That is my opinion and maybe its skewed because I've been fortunate enough to land a summer job at a firm and because things appear as if they may work out for me after graduation.

As far as my friends go, I essentially see my friends falling in to one of three groups:

Group A - The ones that had success at OCI, have jobs lined up, clerkships lined up, etc. obviously they are set;

Group B - The ones that still have hope. These people tend to enjoy law school, went through OCI and failed but they are still hustling (networking, mass mailing, etc.) to find a job. These people (like me) most likely won't end up doing biglaw, but if they network enough, intern at the right places, and have a little luck will end up at a small/midsize firm practicing law and making a decent living.

Group C - The ones that are at around the median or below. They thought law school was going to be a breeze (but didn't really think through why they wanted to go to law school) and are always complaining how bad the legal market is. They say they "want" a job but in my opinion they really aren't doing everything in their power to find a job.

My advice to you - don't go to Fordham if you are going to law school because you solely want to do biglaw or you are only going to law school because you want to make a lot of money. Do go to Fordham if you have a genuine interest in practicing law, want or think you want to practice in NY, and are fine with the fact that more likely than not, you will not end up doing biglaw.


As far as living in NYC, I would say $27k/year is fairly accurate(maybe a tad high), that comes out to $2250/month obviously your budget will be different then mine - My commute to school is about 20 minutes . After my share of rent, cable, internet, and utilities I pay about $1000/month (which is extremely low). $125 for my unlimited metro card. Just taking a guess I spend $150 on groceries and because I worked and commuted last year I probably spent $100/month eating lunch/takeout/etc., then another $150/month to support my drinking habits(probably too low of a number). Just at my fixed expenses I am at $1575/$2250 and that is because I live in a very inexpensive apt. Overall, I would say the number is pretty accurate, but with a fixed and thought out budget you probably could live for less (or more).

I ended up writing more than I thought I would and probably went off topic, I didn't really proofread anything so excuse me if I did (or if there are grammar issues). Let me know if I can follow up on anything.

[3L_At_Law]

First of all, congrats on the job! I'm leaning toward putting Fordham on my backup list. I've heard both positive and negative things about the school, so I'd like to hear your opinion.

Since someone already asked about OCI for the top 25%, how about others who are around median? Have their job search results been similar to yours?

How do you and your friends feel about your prospects after graduation? The school overall? Do you think Fordham was a good choice, or would you advise 0Ls to look elsewhere?

Also, I've only visited NYC and never lived there, so I'm curious about living expenses. Fordham puts COA at $27k/year. Would you say that's accurate? How far from school do you live, and how much is rent/utilities (ballpark figures are fine)?

Thank you! I forgot to thank you in the previous post.

[nightcheese]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply! Don't worry about proofreading or going off-topic. I really appreciate the advice.

When I was applying Fordham was my "backup" as well. I was waitlisted at Cornell/UCLA/Texas rejected from everything higher.

What was your GPA/LSAT, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't have a fantastic undergrad GPA (over 3.0 but below every decent school's median) so even if I do well on the LSAT (I'm taking in December), getting admitted to a T14 will also be a crapshoot for me. I'm prepared to get rejections and settle for a lower-ranked school like Fordham. So it's good to hear that Fordham eventually worked out for you.

I just remembered something else I wanted to ask: From what I've read on TLS, Fordham seems to be pretty stingy with scholarships. Search results gave me a whole slew of people deciding between Fordham sticker and full-ride elsewhere. Those posts are a couple of years old, so would you say Fordham's stinginess is true today?

My advice to you - don't go to Fordham if you are going to law school because you solely want to do biglaw or you are only going to law school because you want to make a lot of money. Do go to Fordham if you have a genuine interest in practicing law, want or think you want to practice in NY, and are fine with the fact that more likely than not, you will not end up doing biglaw.

I fall into the latter group. I almost applied to law school in undergrad, but decided against it. Had I gone then, it would've been for all the wrong reasons you listed. I've been out of school for three years. After trying out a couple of careers, I'm (mostly) convinced that law is the best fit for me. I don't plan to apply until next year, so there's still the possibility that my attitude will change; or that I'll be offered the Best Job Ever (doubtful); or I will bomb the LSAT, forget about law school, and settle down with my current job. We'll see! And again, thanks for the reply.

[3L_At_Law]

Still taking questions if anybody is interested. . .

[alexalva27]

I have a hypothetical question that may or may not be a reflection of my current situation

Looking back on your experiences as someone that is approaching graduation would you say that the Fordham brand has been instrumental in helping you obtain opportunities in the legal field or would you say it had more to do with personal accomplishments?

Hypothetically speaking if you had a friend that was offered a full ride at a T2 (Rutgers) or almost no money at Fordham what advice would you give him or what things should he consider before making a decision?

Assuming that this friend would probably be top 10 percentile at Rutgers but at Fordham would be around the median, in the current job market is it likely that they would be treated as equals or do you think that the Fordham name would be the deciding factor when choosing between an average Fordham grad or a top Rutgers grad?

Your "hypothetical" friend is not hell bent on Big Law but would like to have a successful career which means private practice. He is also very nervous about taking on $200k worth of debt but at the same time is equally nervous about spending 3 years at law school (even if tuition is free) and then ending up unemployed afterwards.

[3L_At_Law]

I have a hypothetical question that may or may not be a reflection of my current situation

Looking back on your experiences as someone that is approaching graduation would you say that the Fordham brand has been instrumental in helping you obtain opportunities in the legal field or would you say it had more to do with personal accomplishments?

Hypothetically speaking if you had a friend that was offered a full ride at a T2 (Rutgers) or almost no money at Fordham what advice would you give him or what things should he consider before making a decision?

Assuming that this friend would probably be top 10 percentile at Rutgers but at Fordham would be around the median, in the current job market is it likely that they would be treated as equals or do you think that the Fordham name would be the deciding factor when choosing between an average Fordham grad or a top Rutgers grad?

Your "hypothetical" friend is not hell bent on Big Law but would like to have a successful career which means private practice. He is also very nervous about taking on $200k worth of debt but at the same time is equally nervous about spending 3 years at law school (even if tuition is free) and then ending up unemployed afterwards.

I sent you a PM

[3L_At_Law]

If anybody is interested in starting this back up....I'm open to answering more questions

[bhlowe]

Hi, thanks for taking the time to answer questions. I was wondering if you have friends/classmates aiming for public interest careers (criminal, etc), and if so, if you know how they view their experiences at Fordham. I don't feel like the school gives prospective students a good idea of how it operates in this area outside of the standard spiel about the concentration/PIRC and the like. Thank you in advance!

[3L_At_Law]

Hi, thanks for taking the time to answer questions. I was wondering if you have friends/classmates aiming for public interest careers (criminal, etc), and if so, if you know how they view their experiences at Fordham. I don't feel like the school gives prospective students a good idea of how it operates in this area outside of the standard spiel about the concentration/PIRC and the like. Thank you in advance!

I'm not to familiar with the public interest programs at Fordham. I do have some friends that are "Stein Scholars" and that seems to be a really great program, but I don't know much about what they actually do. Sorry I couldn't be more of a help.

[canon1845]

Hi, thank you for taking questions. Do you know of any international students in your class? If so how do they fare in terms of finding jobs and etc?

[3L_At_Law]

Hi, thank you for taking questions. Do you know of any international students in your class? If so how do they fare in terms of finding jobs and etc?

Most international students are in the LLM program and I am not too familiar with the process they go through regarding jobs. I am only aware of one international student (Canada) in the JD program, although I am sure there are more. His job search was just like everybody else--he participated in OCI, etc.--except that he couldn't intern/clerk for a federal judge (from my understanding you have to be a US citizen).

[starry eyed]

Thanks for this. Since the economy has picked up, have employment prospects improved? The classmates (group c) that were struggling to find jobs... are they doing better now? I just got a better-than-expected scholarship and I've never considered Fordham til now.

[Creditisgood]

Thank you 3L for taking the time to answer.

To follow up Starry, I have a friend who is 1L at Fordham. Below median or at median, KJD with unpaid internship this summer. He knows big law is not in his future. What about midlaw? What do you recommend he does to improve his prospects?

[starry eyed]

Wow, thanks for the detailed reply! Don't worry about proofreading or going off-topic. I really appreciate the advice.

When I was applying Fordham was my "backup" as well. I was waitlisted at Cornell/UCLA/Texas rejected from everything higher.

What was your GPA/LSAT, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't have a fantastic undergrad GPA (over 3.0 but below every decent school's median) so even if I do well on the LSAT (I'm taking in December), getting admitted to a T14 will also be a crapshoot for me. I'm prepared to get rejections and settle for a lower-ranked school like Fordham. So it's good to hear that Fordham eventually worked out for you.

I just remembered something else I wanted to ask: From what I've read on TLS, Fordham seems to be pretty stingy with scholarships. Search results gave me a whole slew of people deciding between Fordham sticker and full-ride elsewhere. Those posts are a couple of years old, so would you say Fordham's stinginess is true today?

My advice to you - don't go to Fordham if you are going to law school because you solely want to do biglaw or you are only going to law school because you want to make a lot of money. Do go to Fordham if you have a genuine interest in practicing law, want or think you want to practice in NY, and are fine with the fact that more likely than not, you will not end up doing biglaw.

I fall into the latter group. I almost applied to law school in undergrad, but decided against it. Had I gone then, it would've been for all the wrong reasons you listed. I've been out of school for three years. After trying out a couple of careers, I'm (mostly) convinced that law is the best fit for me. I don't plan to apply until next year, so there's still the possibility that my attitude will change; or that I'll be offered the Best Job Ever (doubtful); or I will bomb the LSAT, forget about law school, and settle down with my current job. We'll see! And again, thanks for the reply.

Thought i could help out here. My stats are median LSAT and slightly higher than 75th GPA and just received a half scholarship.

[3L_At_Law]

Thanks for this. Since the economy has picked up, have employment prospects improved? The classmates (group c) that were struggling to find jobs... are they doing better now? I just got a better-than-expected scholarship and I've never considered Fordham til now.

Congrats on the scholarship and sorry for the delayed response...I have been on spring break on a beach and chose to ignore all emails/texts/work.

I think the market has improved tremendously. Last year it was reported that Fordham had 118 students from the class of 2013 as first year associates at NLJ 250 firms. I don't have the data but I feel that this number has increased both for last years class and it will also increase for my class. That being said I think there is always going to be a group c, regardless of the economy. However of all my friends...every one who has been proactive with their job search has found something. Not all are big law. Some are going into compliance, some ADAs, a few at mid-size firms (but its too generally too soon for small and midsize firms to hire entry level associates). From talking with friends it appears the only students without jobs are the ones who have kinda sat back and not been super active (i.e. not mass mailing, networking, etc.)

Let me know if I can expand. Hope this helps.

[3L_At_Law]

Thank you 3L for taking the time to answer.

To follow up Starry, I have a friend who is 1L at Fordham. Below median or at median, KJD with unpaid internship this summer. He knows big law is not in his future. What about midlaw? What do you recommend he does to improve his prospects?

1) Work his tail off this semester and improve his grades for the spring. Talk with professors from last semester, review your exams, re-evaluate study methods, come up with a new game plan for Spring finals. If they want to talk more about this I'd be happy to chat with them.

2) Stay active in the application process. Mass-mail large firms beginning in the summer. Mid-size firms in the fall and then smaller firms in the spring. I landed a paid 2L summer job by mass-mailing. I landed a federal clerkship so I will not be returning to the firm, but would have been more than happy to return.

3) Network and build connections. I've met people who have helped me land internships, who have helped review my resume, who given me feedback on my interviewing skills. Professors who have reached out to me when they hear of a job opening and professors who wrote me great letters of recommendations that helped me land my clerkship. This is probably the easiest thing to do (its all in your control) and sadly most law students are terrible at it (or don't do it at all).

4) Intern/Extern/Gain Experience. Improve your writing. Take any opportunity you can to write. The more you do it the more you will improve. A lot of people end up finding jobs with firms that they intern with during their 3L year. Obviously your chances improve if you are able to produce quality work. Also somebody you work for may not be able to hire you, but sometimes they know people who are looking to hire somebody. Once again if you have produced quality work, they are going to be comfortable recommending you.

5) Stay confident. Its a tough process coming back from the median at 1L but it can be done. I struck out at OCI and ended up finding a firm job and a federal clerkship.

Best of luck to your friend!

[confused_humpback]

Thanks for this. Since the economy has picked up, have employment prospects improved? The classmates (group c) that were struggling to find jobs... are they doing better now? I just got a better-than-expected scholarship and I've never considered Fordham til now.

Congrats on the scholarship and sorry for the delayed response...I have been on spring break on a beach and chose to ignore all emails/texts/work.

I think the market has improved tremendously. Last year it was reported that Fordham had 118 students from the class of 2013 as first year associates at NLJ 250 firms. I don't have the data but I feel that this number has increased both for last years class and it will also increase for my class. That being said I think there is always going to be a group c, regardless of the economy. However of all my friends...every one who has been proactive with their job search has found something. Not all are big law. Some are going into compliance, some ADAs, a few at mid-size firms (but its too generally too soon for small and midsize firms to hire entry level associates). From talking with friends it appears the only students without jobs are the ones who have kinda sat back and not been super active (i.e. not mass mailing, networking, etc.)

Let me know if I can expand. Hope this helps.

This seems to mirror a lot of what I understand about Fordham. It seems on TLS that when Fordham comes up it usually gets bashed for having bad stats, but I'm not really sure where people are getting their numbers. Anecdotally, it seems that most of the Fordham students I've talked to have done well in the job search and are happy with having gone to the school, and as far as the ABA reports and the date I can find goes, it seems that Fordham is sending a pretty decent amount of their graduating class to BigLaw (considering its rank) and also avoiding having major unemployment issues.

[Creditisgood]

Creditisgood wrote:
Thank you 3L for taking the time to answer.

To follow up Starry, I have a friend who is 1L at Fordham. Below median or at median, KJD with unpaid internship this summer. He knows big law is not in his future. What about midlaw? What do you recommend he does to improve his prospects?



1) Work his tail off this semester and improve his grades for the spring. Talk with professors from last semester, review your exams, re-evaluate study methods, come up with a new game plan for Spring finals. If they want to talk more about this I'd be happy to chat with them.

2) Stay active in the application process. Mass-mail large firms beginning in the summer. Mid-size firms in the fall and then smaller firms in the spring. I landed a paid 2L summer job by mass-mailing. I landed a federal clerkship so I will not be returning to the firm, but would have been more than happy to return.

3) Network and build connections. I've met people who have helped me land internships, who have helped review my resume, who given me feedback on my interviewing skills. Professors who have reached out to me when they hear of a job opening and professors who wrote me great letters of recommendations that helped me land my clerkship. This is probably the easiest thing to do (its all in your control) and sadly most law students are terrible at it (or don't do it at all).

4) Intern/Extern/Gain Experience. Improve your writing. Take any opportunity you can to write. The more you do it the more you will improve. A lot of people end up finding jobs with firms that they intern with during their 3L year. Obviously your chances improve if you are able to produce quality work. Also somebody you work for may not be able to hire you, but sometimes they know people who are looking to hire somebody. Once again if you have produced quality work, they are going to be comfortable recommending you.

5) Stay confident. Its a tough process coming back from the median at 1L but it can be done. I struck out at OCI and ended up finding a firm job and a federal clerkship.

Best of luck to your friend!

Thank you 3L for taking the time to answer. Will pass the info.