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icytoes wrote:I'm planning on attending a T14 this fall that places well into biglaw. I will be receiving no aid or grants from my school. However, I am fortunate enough to have my living expenses covered. I estimate this will put me in at least 180,000 worth of debt. (does this sound reasonable? I couldn't believe Grad PLUS loans have 8.8% interest) I feel like I could make more as an uber driver. Is it worth it for me to go to law school from your perspective?

Which T14?

icytoes wrote:I'm planning on attending a T14 this fall that places well into biglaw. I will be receiving no aid or grants from my school. However, I am fortunate enough to have my living expenses covered. I estimate this will put me in at least 180,000 worth of debt. (does this sound reasonable? I couldn't believe Grad PLUS loans have 8.8% interest) I feel like I could make more as an uber driver. Is it worth it for me to go to law school from your perspective?

No. You will be a slave to ludicrous debt and a job you hate for your foreseeable future. Assuming you get/keep a job at all.

What's your LSAT/GPA? You need to retake until you can guarantee a COA of ~$100k at the highest. And even that's an uncomfortable debt level.

penn

With that much debt, and without knowing which T14, the chances of ruining your life is about 50/50.

Go take out a $180K loan, fly to Vegas, and bet it all on black. It's less of an opportunity cost.

sure you could do well as an uber driver for a year or two maybe.. but is that a career? a JD and a 3-4 year biglaw stint would help you form a valuable career -- but you'll have work considerably harder than an uber driver.

I would take the time to evaluate your goals. working in biglaw seems basically like working 2 jobs, 80 hours a week for $160k. if you are considering becoming an uber driver instead of law school I feel like you need to evaluate why you're doing to law school - do you really want to be lawyer or are you driven by what your friends/family want and/or money? would you be happier making 75k in a 9-5?

icytoes wrote:penn

Great placement, but not even Penn's worth that much debt.

JCougar wrote:With that much debt, and without knowing which T14, the chances of ruining your life is about 50/50.

Go take out a $180K loan, fly to Vegas, and bet it all on black. It's less of an opportunity cost.

Are you implying that getting biglaw would mean I didn't ruin my life? I feel like I only want biglaw to pay back that debt. That's a pretty tempting idea but having 180,000 in debt with a shitty job is probably better than 180,000 with no job. I majored in basketweaving so my options seem limited outside of law school. I do want to be a lawyer just maybe not a corporate one. I feel like a lot of the advice i've been getting is from jaded law students and lawyers. Is there really no good outcome that can come from this?

You should be a whole lot more specificabout your career goals than "I do want to be a lawyer, just maybe not a corporate one" before taking out $180K of non-dischargeable debt at 7%-9%. (Also tuition and fees alone at Penn will leave you with $200K+ debt three years from now after accounting for accrued interest).

icytoes wrote:

JCougar wrote:With that much debt, and without knowing which T14, the chances of ruining your life is about 50/50.

Go take out a $180K loan, fly to Vegas, and bet it all on black. It's less of an opportunity cost.

Are you implying that getting biglaw would mean I didn't ruin my life? I feel like I only want biglaw to pay back that debt. That's a pretty tempting idea but having 180,000 in debt with a shitty job is probably better than 180,000 with no job. I majored in basketweaving so my options seem limited outside of law school. I do want to be a lawyer just maybe not a corporate one. I feel like a lot of the advice i've been getting is from jaded law students and lawyers. Is there really no good outcome that can come from this?

I disagree and I do think Penn is worth 180k (depending on a lot of factors).

However, you say you do not actually want biglaw. If, for you, getting biglaw means = ruining your life, you have approximately 95% chance at ruining your life.

What do you want to do? Many people have no idea what "corporate law" means. In fact, people say the same thing as you "I want to be a lawyer but not a corporate one" but don't realize what this means.


I agree. Be more specific about your goals

icytoes wrote:

JCougar wrote:With that much debt, and without knowing which T14, the chances of ruining your life is about 50/50.

Go take out a $180K loan, fly to Vegas, and bet it all on black. It's less of an opportunity cost.

Are you implying that getting biglaw would mean I didn't ruin my life? I feel like I only want biglaw to pay back that debt. That's a pretty tempting idea but having 180,000 in debt with a shitty job is probably better than 180,000 with no job. I majored in basketweaving so my options seem limited outside of law school. I do want to be a lawyer just maybe not a corporate one. I feel like a lot of the advice i've been getting is from jaded law students and lawyers. Is there really no good outcome that can come from this?

I was banking on the general TLS wisdom for that one.

Biglaw is the only way you can pay off that debt without being bailed out by the government, but whether staying in Biglaw long enough to pay off that debt will ruin your life is another matter. Some people kind of like Biglaw, but the majority of people I know in it are simply suffering through it to get their loan debt down. And not all will last more than a year or two.

Going to Penn at that price when you don't want biglaw isn't likely to ruin your life. But it will create substantial hardships: emotional/psychological and/or financial. You will most likely regret your decision.

Paul Campos wrote:You should be a whole lot more specificabout your career goals than "I do want to be a lawyer, just maybe not a corporate one" before taking out $180K of non-dischargeable debt at 7%-9%. (Also tuition and fees alone at Penn will leave you with $200K+ debt three years from now after accounting for accrued interest).

That's a fair criticism and perhaps I should included that in my original post. I want to work at a nonprofit that works with immigrants. I've talked to a lawyer at frag omen and she seems to do interesting work there. Realistically I probably won't get hired to do immigration law at a big firm out of law school. I will pursue the biglaw route as a means to pay back some debt and gain experience. My friends seem to think I'm on the way to riches when in realty I'll be in a substantially worse position, financial speaking, in three years. It's difficult because I have to make this decision with the knowledge that my aspirations might change once I actually enter law school. Any advice helps and it's nice to get different perspectives.

icytoes wrote:

Paul Campos wrote:You should be a whole lot more specificabout your career goals than "I do want to be a lawyer, just maybe not a corporate one" before taking out $180K of non-dischargeable debt at 7%-9%. (Also tuition and fees alone at Penn will leave you with $200K+ debt three years from now after accounting for accrued interest).

That's a fair criticism and perhaps I should included that in my original post. I want to work at a nonprofit that works with immigrants. I've talked to a lawyer at frag omen and she seems to do interesting work there. Realistically I probably won't get hired to do immigration law at a big firm out of law school. I will pursue the biglaw route as a means to pay back some debt and gain experience. My friends seem to think I'm on the way to riches when in realty I'll be in a substantially worse position, financial speaking, in three years. It's difficult because I have to make this decision with the knowledge that my aspirations might change once I actually enter law school. Any advice helps and it's nice to get different perspectives.

In this case, I'd look to get a full scholarship at a lower T14.

Immigration law does seem to have a decent number of job openings relatively speaking, but you don't want to have the stress of relying on PSLF if you want to do plaintiff-side non-profit work. It's a plus if you can speak Spanish or, depending on your location, another language. If you don't know one already, I'd take some language classes as electives while you're in law school, if your school allows this.

icytoes wrote:

Paul Campos wrote:You should be a whole lot more specificabout your career goals than "I do want to be a lawyer, just maybe not a corporate one" before taking out $180K of non-dischargeable debt at 7%-9%. (Also tuition and fees alone at Penn will leave you with $200K+ debt three years from now after accounting for accrued interest).

That's a fair criticism and perhaps I should included that in my original post. I want to work at a nonprofit that works with immigrants. I've talked to a lawyer at frag omen and she seems to do interesting work there. Realistically I probably won't get hired to do immigration law at a big firm out of law school. I will pursue the biglaw route as a means to pay back some debt and gain experience. My friends seem to think I'm on the way to riches when in realty I'll be in a substantially worse position, financial speaking, in three years. It's difficult because I have to make this decision with the knowledge that my aspirations might change once I actually enter law school. Any advice helps and it's nice to get different perspectives.

So your end goal is to work at a nonprofit?
I don't know about the current state of LRAP but I would go to another school (like NYU) which has a strong PI presence. PI at penn is harder but not impossible.

I don't know how comfortable you are on relying on LRAP but that's one option. PI isn't by all means "easy" but it's doable. Maybe look into that.

I can tell you though, as a current law student, that many people who were set on PI entering my school (NYU) changed their minds. Now, the reasons were various, including paying off loans, or just changing their mind and wanted to go into private work. However, realistically, it sounds like your interest in immigration law isn’t grounded in anything too substantial (I might be wrong though). Unless you have a passion for it (your parents were immigrants, etc.), there are millions of other practice areas that have “interesting work”. In fact, you might even like being a “corporate lawyer”.

Biglaw at 180k is not life ruining. In fact, many people will kill to be in that situation. However, that doesn’t matter. What matters is what YOU want.
The fact that most 0L’s have no clue what lawyers do makes this decision much more difficult. I would do some more research if I were you, and keep an open mind on things.

Hey OP, I personally think that going to a t14 for non-profit work can be a good idea. I won't start work until the fall, so I guess check back in with me in 5 years when my life is closer to ruined haha.

Before you go though I would recommend coming up with a compelling story about why immigration if you don't already have one. Even if its simply shadowing the lawyer that you talked to and being able to say that you were "struck" by the disparity or something. If you already have a compelling reason to want to do the work then you should be solid.

Get on board with the immigration professor at your school as soon as you can. From what I can tell these people are usually pretty connected and are happy to find kids at t14s who care about their field. A solid relationship with a professor could be your ticket to an immigration law job.

I would also try to get out of the pattern of thinking of big law as a necessary evil. Either you want it or you don't. Schools are set up so that you can go non-profit take advantage of that and pursue your goals. At least in my experience, trying to get motivated to get good grades for a job I didn't want and sounded terrible was difficult. Once I was able to re focus my motivation school was a lot more enjoyable.

Also, I don't mean to totally thread hi-jack but I've always questioned the do big-law for a few years to pay down loans and then go non-profit. It doesn't seem to make financial sense since you really won't pay that much of your debt down in two years and you'll probably have to start off at the bottom rung of whatever non-profit you go to since you kinda won't have transferable skills.

As someone with a combined 270K debt and a law degree from Penn, I feel like I'm uniquely qualified to tell you that this is probably not a good idea. The LRAP and PI support is getting much better at Penn, and the low PI rates are more because of self-selection than lack of school support. That being said, you'll probably wind up doing OCI and working at a firm "just for a few years." The problem is the stress of having such a high debt-load. Even if you get biglaw, which you probably will from Penn, you are shackled to a minimum of 5 years (and I mean 5 years of paying all disposable income into loans) just to pay off that ungodly sum of money. Chances of you lasting that long? Slim. Maybe you get the boot two years in. Maybe you burn out as all of your relationships fall apart. Maybe you make it to 5 years and realize you haven't been paying enough down and need another two years of living like a college student until age 35. Hell, maybe you get no-offered and your career dies before it begins. Even when you win the game, you lose with this much debt. I won the game, this is my prize.