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So, from what I understand after reading TLS, PI/Gov positions are all about hustling, getting experience/interning/doing mock trials etc and biglaw is all about gunning and getting top grades. How does one aim to get into a small firm? Is it by taking specialized classes related to their practice area/taking clinics in that area? Is it really networking heavy? How do you break into smaller firms in this rough market? I'd love some insight on this.

psyduckiscool wrote:So, from what I understand after reading TLS, PI/Gov positions are all about hustling, getting experience/interning/doing mock trials etc and biglaw is all about gunning and getting top grades. How does one aim to get into a small firm? Is it by taking specialized classes related to their practice area/taking clinics in that area? Is it really networking heavy? How do you break into smaller firms in this rough market? I'd love some insight on this.

Some of the stuff you mentioned plus a ton of luck. Small firms rarely hire, so you could network like crazy with a bunch of small firms but then graduate when none of them have openings.

The friends I have who have already graduated got into small firms by way of legit personal connections that came thru for them. One was offered a job by her dad's friend who has his own firm with a few associates and the other was offered a job after being asked by a friend of a friend if there were any openings. If you know people who know people who have their own practices, that is the only conceivable way I could see it happening. As pp said, you can't really "network" with small firms...they either have room to grow or they don't.

Networking, ttt symplicity, work for one part time in law school. Email alumni while you're in school and see if they need cheap help or can talk about their practice. Most of my friends working at small firms got in the door because a classmate worked there before them and when they moved on they recommended their friend who the firm hired. The rest all worked part time in law school at their place and after passing bar the firm felt bad and hired them.

Interesting stuff guys, thanks. Do you think that small firms are a goal that a law student could realistically work for as their main goal or is it really just something to have as a potential option while mainly gunning for biglaw or hustling for PI/gov?

You can always try for smaller firms but their hiring is almost always as-needed, and they often don't have the time or resources to train a fresh graduate, so they look for a bit of experience. Not all, but a good bit of them. Big firms hire on a regular schedule and they typically hire quite a few people, which is why it makes more sense to try for a large firm.

kalvano wrote:You can always try for smaller firms but their hiring is almost always as-needed, and they often don't have the time or resources to train a fresh graduate, so they look for a bit of experience. Not all, but a good bit of them. Big firms hire on a regular schedule and they typically hire quite a few people, which is why it makes more sense to try for a large firm.

Do you think that doing a state or fed clerkship would make one more attractive to smaller firms because of prior legal training/experience?

psyduckiscool wrote:

kalvano wrote:You can always try for smaller firms but their hiring is almost always as-needed, and they often don't have the time or resources to train a fresh graduate, so they look for a bit of experience. Not all, but a good bit of them. Big firms hire on a regular schedule and they typically hire quite a few people, which is why it makes more sense to try for a large firm.

Do you think that doing a state or fed clerkship would make one more attractive to smaller firms because of prior legal training/experience?

Not really. It's attractive to large firms for prestige and other things, but you don't actually get a lot of practical skills doing a clerkship. In fact, it may make you less desirable because you're behind in terms of actual practical skills that apply on a day-to-day basis.

kalvano wrote:

psyduckiscool wrote:

kalvano wrote:You can always try for smaller firms but their hiring is almost always as-needed, and they often don't have the time or resources to train a fresh graduate, so they look for a bit of experience. Not all, but a good bit of them. Big firms hire on a regular schedule and they typically hire quite a few people, which is why it makes more sense to try for a large firm.

Do you think that doing a state or fed clerkship would make one more attractive to smaller firms because of prior legal training/experience?

Not really. It's attractive to large firms for prestige and other things, but you don't actually get a lot of practical skills doing a clerkship. In fact, it may make you less desirable because you're behind in terms of actual practical skills that apply on a day-to-day basis.

Dang, all I can say is lol @ big firms for caring so much about prestige. IDK, the whole biglaw hiring timeline and caring so much about 1L grades only is ridiculous to me. Back to small firms though, I guess working as an ADA would be attractive to criminal defense firms, revolving door kinda deal?

Yeah, there are a lot of prosecutors-turned-criminal defense attorneys out there. Most criminal defense firms are REALLY small, like solos or a couple of people teaming up small, though.

kalvano wrote:

psyduckiscool wrote:

kalvano wrote:You can always try for smaller firms but their hiring is almost always as-needed, and they often don't have the time or resources to train a fresh graduate, so they look for a bit of experience. Not all, but a good bit of them. Big firms hire on a regular schedule and they typically hire quite a few people, which is why it makes more sense to try for a large firm.

Do you think that doing a state or fed clerkship would make one more attractive to smaller firms because of prior legal training/experience?

Not really. It's attractive to large firms for prestige and other things, but you don't actually get a lot of practical skills doing a clerkship. In fact, it may make you less desirable because you're behind in terms of actual practical skills that apply on a day-to-day basis.

100% disagree. OP if you can squeeze an offer from a federal judge, get on it my dude. A lot of boutique firm lawyers have hard ons for ex-clerks and it is EXCELLENT experience--I'm telling you. Plus you'll meet a lot of attorneys if you get the right judge; and this is even more applicable in state court (aka, the wild wild west)

Thanks for your responses guys. I'd love do crim work for a small firm, but as you guys mentioned, it is hard to shoe in. Looks like I'll be hustling for a state or fed clerkship or DA internships throughout LS to get my foot through the door.

It can vary significantly from firm to firm. Even within a single firm, it can vary significantly from job opening to job opening. I landed my position because I had a writing background, and at the time the firm was looking for someone to help out with motion practice. One of my colleagues was hired a few years before I was for the same reason. I know another attorney who was hired because he had a year of experience in an area of law that the firm was interested in trying out. Another attorney was hired because he interned at the firm over a summer and everyone liked him. A few of the attorneys were hired because they graduated from the same school as one of the partners. Another was hired because she was a friend of the partners from way back.

Several of my friends landed jobs because they had specialized in a particular practice area during law school. One landed a job with an immigration firm, and another with a tax law firm.

A lot of different things can help you get your foot in the door. Don't focus on one particular method. Network, specialize, get work experience... anything you can use to market yourself after you graduate.

What do small firms pay? I know, "it depends" --but for instance, TheGreatFish --could you say what your starting salary was?

Hipster but Athletic wrote:What do small firms pay? I know, "it depends" --but for instance, TheGreatFish --could you say what your starting salary was?

It's so broad as to be not worth asking. Anywhere from $30K all the way to $150K.

I have to agree with kalvano. I would assume it also varies significantly by region. At my firm in CA, the starting salary range is 60k-80k for a new attorney. While interviewing at various small firms, the lowest offer was 50k/year. Most were in the 60k-70k range.

I work as a law clerk at a small criminal defense firm, and attorneys hired here range from people with years of practice experience in a solo or maybe 2-3 person firm that wanted to move somewhere with more stability and support (lots of paralegals/office staff to handle the admin stuff) to recent grads from out of the area who applied on a whim and wound up getting hired. Additionally, they occasionally hire law clerks that worked here during school, but I get the impression that only occurs when they clearly need another attorney and they really are impressed with the student. I think we also have at least 2 or 3 former PDs and ADAs

Here, and at other smaller firms in this area (small = 5-6 up to 30 or so attorneys), a fair number of students get hired for the summer and during the semester, but there is no expectation that the job will turn in to a permanent position regardless of how good/bad your work product is, personality or "fit," etc. So you can't really compare it to big law hiring, and like other people have mentioned, luck really is the most important thing to getting a job, but I don't think grades stop mattering either.

As somebody who also plans on working in a small firm, I spend a lot of time talking to local attorneys, following which firms are looking to expand/cut back, and where recent alumni have been able to find work. But I also accept that it is unlikely I'll know for sure where I'm working before graduation, and what that position will pay, which is why keeping debt low is the absolute most important thing to do if you want to go this route.

I dont understand why you'd only make 80k. What is your billing rate at a small firm like that? $150?

Your billing rate has very little to do with what you're paid.

And I get billed at $270/hour, by the way.

kalvano wrote:Your billing rate has very little to do with what you're paid.

And I get billed at $270/hour, by the way.

That's fucked. Ask for a raise

I legit don't get it. How much does a seat cost a year? $50k for rent utils and support? So the partnership is making still like 350k off your head? They really try to minimize your salary as much as possible?

What I'm trying to get at is --what should someone with an offer at a small firm ask to be paid to begin with? Why not start at say 130 say, "Im gonna keep looking at the bigger places if you can't come close?? They'll say you'd go if you could then I'll say then you don't really want me? Then they say we do --here's 110.

Hipster but Athletic wrote:What I'm trying to get at is --what should someone with an offer at a small firm ask to be paid to begin with? Why not start at say 130 say, "Im gonna keep looking at the bigger places if you can't come close?? They'll say you'd go if you could then I'll say then you don't really want me? Then they say we do --here's 110.

What if they could find another body in a suit willing to do the work for 50K? It's not like there is a shortage of JDs out there.

Also, how is someone looking at small firm work supposed to just acquire a 130K job at a bigger firm? Or at least legitimately threaten that they could? Wouldn't they have most likely had to have summered at that firm, in which case that ship has already sailed?

How do you not get this? Even at a larger firm that pays $130K or more, you'll bill 1950 or more hours at around $300 or so per hour. That only takes about 434 hours to make your salary. The firm has to pay for stuff, the partners have to make money....it's the way the world works.

I'm well compensated for my work, and the partners at my firm are even more well compensated. They are the partners, they run the firm, it's their name on the door. They have loads of experience, and I'm learning a ton from them. Why shouldn't they make more money, or specifically make money off of me? They didn't bring me in to just to look pretty, they brought me in to ease their workload and bill hours to make money for the firm. If you work for a firm, until your name is first on the door, someone is always going to make more money than you, and likely off the work they are asking you to do.

If you have trouble with that concept, then don't be an attorney.

Hipster but Athletic wrote:What I'm trying to get at is --what should someone with an offer at a small firm ask to be paid to begin with? Why not start at say 130 say, "Im gonna keep looking at the bigger places if you can't come close?? They'll say you'd go if you could then I'll say then you don't really want me? Then they say we do --here's 110.

It's not entirely about base salary. I have a lot of perks working at a small firm that people (making more money) at a large firm don't get.