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I'll be a non-traditional (43 years old) student if I attend law school, I also have a wife and son. One question I have is about the workload expectations upon getting a job. I'm not expecting a 40 hour workweek, but at the same time I don't want to be putting in regular 70-80 hour weeks that I have heard can sometimes be expected from new hires right out of law school. I've spoken with a few lawyers today and my general sense is that if you're hired by a big law firm (500+ lawyers, depending on market) then a heavy 70 - 80 hour workload isn't uncommon, but if you go to a mid-size or smaller firm, or join a corporation's in-house legal staff, then the hours are typically a lot more reasonable.

I'm wondering if anyone can confirm this, or share their thoughts?

Law is a service-oriented profession. No matter where you work, there will be some very long weeks. They will be more standard at a larger firm (which, by the way, for this particular question should be more like 50+ and not 500+), but even at smaller firms, stuff has to get done. Smaller firms will just have less volume typically, and therefore not as much to do. I'm at a 6-attorney firm and I usually work about 55-60 hours a week, give or take. I'm sure some small (like under 10 attorneys) firms will have a 40 hour work week as a general rule, but you won't be doing much corporate work there.

And yes, if you go in-house, the work week is much more 9-5, but those jobs are typically reserved for experienced attorneys, and usually the ones who worked at the larger firms.

Why do you want to be a lawyer, and what do you envision doing as "corporate" work?

The good news is that you almost certainly won't have to worry about the hours required at a large firm: unless you go to a T14 law school, your chances of getting one of these positions is very, very low (and it's not that great at some of the T14).

The bad news is that, if you don't go to a T14, getting any legal job will be no walk in the park, and you likely will not be able to pick and choose based on the workload. Mid size firms do not hire a lot of students, and in-house opportunities are virtually non-existent for fresh graduates. Small law firms at $40-60,000 per year are a more realistic target, with a significant chance of not being able to find any law-related employment whatsoever.

As an older student with a family, I sincerely hope you are not going to law school for financial reasons (and/or are going to law school for free), because this is a bet that is statistically unlikely to pay off.

kalvano wrote:Law is a service-oriented profession. No matter where you work, there will be some very long weeks. They will be more standard at a larger firm (which, by the way, for this particular question should be more like 50+ and not 500+), but even at smaller firms, stuff has to get done. Smaller firms will just have less volume typically, and therefore not as much to do. I'm at a 6-attorney firm and I usually work about 55-60 hours a week, give or take. I'm sure some small (like under 10 attorneys) firms will have a 40 hour work week as a general rule, but you won't be doing much corporate work there.

And yes, if you go in-house, the work week is much more 9-5, but those jobs are typically reserved for experienced attorneys, and usually the ones who worked at the larger firms.

Why do you want to be a lawyer, and what do you envision doing as "corporate" work?

Thanks for the feedback! Not sure I want to do corporate law, it's just an option. I've got some experience in the health care field (not a provider), so health care law has a lot of appeal, and likewise some experience in the world of campaign and election law. Want to be a lawyer because I want to directly make a difference in people's lives, and I've had the fortune of working with a number of lawyers and seen how effective they can be in advocating for people and causes. If you want to know more you'll have to be on the admissions committee and read my personal statement!

sdp001 wrote:

kalvano wrote:Law is a service-oriented profession. No matter where you work, there will be some very long weeks. They will be more standard at a larger firm (which, by the way, for this particular question should be more like 50+ and not 500+), but even at smaller firms, stuff has to get done. Smaller firms will just have less volume typically, and therefore not as much to do. I'm at a 6-attorney firm and I usually work about 55-60 hours a week, give or take. I'm sure some small (like under 10 attorneys) firms will have a 40 hour work week as a general rule, but you won't be doing much corporate work there.

And yes, if you go in-house, the work week is much more 9-5, but those jobs are typically reserved for experienced attorneys, and usually the ones who worked at the larger firms.

Why do you want to be a lawyer, and what do you envision doing as "corporate" work?

Thanks for the feedback! Not sure I want to do corporate law, it's just an option. I've got some experience in the health care field (not a provider), so health care law has a lot of appeal, and likewise some experience in the world of campaign and election law. Want to be a lawyer because I want to directly make a difference in people's lives, and I've had the fortune of working with a number of lawyers and seen how effective they can be in advocating for people and causes. If you want to know more you'll have to be on the admissions committee and read my personal statement!

He asked you what you meant by "corporate law" and you didn't define it. Would you mind doing that please?

Also, why do you think "corporate law" will be an option for you?

sdp001 wrote:I'll be a non-traditional (43 years old) student if I attend law school, I also have a wife and son. One question I have is about the workload expectations upon getting a job. I'm not expecting a 40 hour workweek, but at the same time I don't want to be putting in regular 70-80 hour weeks that I have heard can sometimes be expected from new hires right out of law school. I've spoken with a few lawyers today and my general sense is that if you're hired by a big law firm (500+ lawyers, depending on market) then a heavy 70 - 80 hour workload isn't uncommon, but if you go to a mid-size or smaller firm, or join a corporation's in-house legal staff, then the hours are typically a lot more reasonable.

I'm wondering if anyone can confirm this, or share their thoughts?

Maybe you could find some local firms that do work you would be interested in and ask the lawyers there these questions? Hours vary depending on a lot of factors.

sdp001 wrote:

kalvano wrote:Law is a service-oriented profession. No matter where you work, there will be some very long weeks. They will be more standard at a larger firm (which, by the way, for this particular question should be more like 50+ and not 500+), but even at smaller firms, stuff has to get done. Smaller firms will just have less volume typically, and therefore not as much to do. I'm at a 6-attorney firm and I usually work about 55-60 hours a week, give or take. I'm sure some small (like under 10 attorneys) firms will have a 40 hour work week as a general rule, but you won't be doing much corporate work there.

And yes, if you go in-house, the work week is much more 9-5, but those jobs are typically reserved for experienced attorneys, and usually the ones who worked at the larger firms.

Why do you want to be a lawyer, and what do you envision doing as "corporate" work?

Thanks for the feedback! Not sure I want to do corporate law, it's just an option. I've got some experience in the health care field (not a provider), so health care law has a lot of appeal, and likewise some experience in the world of campaign and election law. Want to be a lawyer because I want to directly make a difference in people's lives, and I've had the fortune of working with a number of lawyers and seen how effective they can be in advocating for people and causes. If you want to know more you'll have to be on the admissions committee and read my personal statement!

When I say "why do you want to be a lawyer" I don't mean the personal statement answer. Is it money? Does your current career suck? Why the sudden switch? Because at 43, with a wife and kid, that's a hell of a big commitment to make. You've realistically got about 23-26 more working years left now. That'll drop by 3 by the time you're done (if you start Fall 2014), and you'll be starting over at the bottom. You'll do a lot of drudgery and shit work that will keep you from being with your family for long stretches.

It'll take years before you're in a position where you can truly advocate for clients and "make a difference in their lives," if ever. Additionally, not knowing what you mean by "corporate work," it's hard to say for sure, but in general, most corporate work will be done for (surprisingly) corporations, not individual people.

Hours are the same at all entry level private practice options, only difference is how much you are paid for those hours.

BigZuck wrote:

sdp001 wrote:

kalvano wrote:Law is a service-oriented profession. No matter where you work, there will be some very long weeks. They will be more standard at a larger firm (which, by the way, for this particular question should be more like 50+ and not 500+), but even at smaller firms, stuff has to get done. Smaller firms will just have less volume typically, and therefore not as much to do. I'm at a 6-attorney firm and I usually work about 55-60 hours a week, give or take. I'm sure some small (like under 10 attorneys) firms will have a 40 hour work week as a general rule, but you won't be doing much corporate work there.

And yes, if you go in-house, the work week is much more 9-5, but those jobs are typically reserved for experienced attorneys, and usually the ones who worked at the larger firms.

Why do you want to be a lawyer, and what do you envision doing as "corporate" work?

Thanks for the feedback! Not sure I want to do corporate law, it's just an option. I've got some experience in the health care field (not a provider), so health care law has a lot of appeal, and likewise some experience in the world of campaign and election law. Want to be a lawyer because I want to directly make a difference in people's lives, and I've had the fortune of working with a number of lawyers and seen how effective they can be in advocating for people and causes. If you want to know more you'll have to be on the admissions committee and read my personal statement!

He asked you what you meant by "corporate law" and you didn't define it. Would you mind doing that please?

Also, why do you think "corporate law" will be an option for you?

Actually, I didn't say "corporate law"*** I simply said that my understanding was that corporate work hours were probably closer to 'normal' than the heavy workload I've been told can be fairly typical of a 'big' law firm, however that's defined (varies by market). I'd assume corporate law has a number of different branches, including banking/M&A, bankruptcy, contracts, IP, litigation defense, and other areas as well, some of which may or may not appeal to me. I'm keeping an open enough mind to think that just about anything is an option for me, including corporate law.

Hope this answers your questions!

***EDIT: Whoops, I was re-reading my original post, not my later response, and I did indeed use the term 'corporate law.' My apologies! Anyways, I've defined it above, hope that explains what I meant. To elaborate, 'corporate law' would just mean (in the context of my original question) working for the in-house legal team of a corporation, the type of work depending on what type of corporation it is - Microsoft might be IP/patent law, Blue Cross/Blue Shield might be health law, etc. Not saying I'm going to apply for or get those types of jobs, just explaining what 'corporate law' means a bit better than in the original.

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon with the others and really caution you to think about this before making a final decision. Not sure where you are in the process, but Law School Transparency is a great site to give you figures on employment outcomes for various schools.

You seem well-intentioned, but a little all over the place. You won't be helping people in corporate law or health care law. Campaign and election law are almost non-existence fields. In house positions are nearly impossible to get straight out of law school, and most require that you come from a big firm. Each year, only about ~10% of law grads end up in big firms. If you miss biglaw out of the starting gate, it's almost impossible to get later in your career. Oh, and with your age, assuming you end up in a firm, you'll be taking orders from midlevel and senior associates that are almost ~20 years younger than. And finally, hours are likely to be bad at almost any entry-level job. Some are worse, but it stops mattering at a certain point (60 hours vs 70 hours? Meh).

Try to not be too dreary, but that's sort of the state of things. If you are hellbent on doing it, like many of us, then you'll go despite the warnings and the potential costs. But if you aren't, then please don't. Especially considering the family piece.