Top Law Schools

I've mostly lurked here during my time in law school, but TLS has definitely been a big help to me during the past three years, especially during OCI.

Just graduated from University of Minnesota Law School last month, and overall, I'm glad I attended. UMN is definitely not the best choice for everyone (and it probably wasn't even the best choice for me), so if you're thinking about attending or applying, post here and I'll do my best to answer all your questions or point you in the right direction. I know there are older threads on UMN, but a lot has changed in the past year or so at the school, and I know a fair amount about outcomes for class of 2013, as well as what's going on with my own.

About me:

OOS, from the Midwest, with weak Minnesota connections coming in.
Several years of WE between undergrad and law school.
Came in with 168 LSAT and 3.5 GPA, got a 1/2 scholarship (plus resident tuition after my 2L year).
Total debt: a smidge over $100k as of today.
Secondary journal, top 20% after my 1L year.

I've got a local biglaw job lined up for after the bar, via OCI.

(Other than the enormous help during OCI, the best thing I got from lurking on TLS was reading Ludo's stuff. Follow http://ludostories.com/ if you don't already. I even read his entries to my husband, who's not in law, and they entertain the shit out of him too.)

Did your weak ties to Minnesota hurt you any when it came to OCI? What percentage of the class had real full time jobs lined up by graduation? Thanks

What sort of work experience before law school? Generally speaking, do you think your work experience had something to do with your success at OCI?

how did you manage to get resident tuition

& what are the best strategies to do so

should-i-do-it wrote:Did your weak ties to Minnesota hurt you any when it came to OCI? What percentage of the class had real full time jobs lined up by graduation? Thanks

My lack of strong ties may or may not have hurt me in some of my screener interviews, but they didn't stop me from getting them in the first place. Maybe I missed out on a few of the boutiques and smaller firms that came to our OCI due to being OOS, but I still got somewhere between 15-20 screener interviews. At that point, my job was to sell what connections I did have to the state. My pitch was basically:

1. My husband and I want to stay in the Midwest, where we grew up, so I only applied to law schools in states where we were confident we'd be happy living.
2. I only applied for legal jobs in the Twin Cities area, since after my 1L year we were confident we wanted to stay here.
3. Most of my extended family lives in a neighboring state, which makes it much more feasible to visit them often than it was from Old State, which is especially meaningful, as some of them are aging and have failing health.

I also included an "interests" section on my resume that made it clear that I enjoy winter sports and access to all the lakes in Minnesota. That probably didn't hurt.

It also probably helped that the state we moved from isn't considered a particularly desirable place to live for young professionals, so the idea that I'd want to go back seemed unlikely.

From what I can tell, probably 35%-45% of the class of 2014 have legal jobs lined up, counting clerkships, fellowships, school positions, etc. I'm not counting those who are still volunteering at organizations they volunteered at during law school or those who are making ends meet with non-legal jobs. A small handful landed NYC BigLaw, and a few got Chicago BigLaw. Usually something like 13% of the class gets jobs at 101+ attorney firms, so presumably everyone in that group knows already. I know at least one student who's clerking for the 8th circuit, several with federal district court clerkships, at least one with a Minnesota Supreme Court clerkship, and UMN grads generally have decent luck with state clerkships as well.

The friends I have who really want government jobs are largely still waiting and/or have been rejected from their top picks. Government jobs in and near the Twin Cities are at a premium, and there's strong competition. A couple are doing JAG for sure though, and a few have accepted public defender positions. My friends without jobs are split into two camps. Some come off as very mellow about it and don't seem too panicky (in a few cases, I know this is because debt isn't a factor for them), and some are doing mad scrambling. It's important to remember that according to LST, about 1/3 of them will STILL not have full-time, long-term, JD-required positions eight months from now.

d cooper wrote:What sort of work experience before law school? Generally speaking, do you think your work experience had something to do with your success at OCI?

I both worked and put in serious volunteer time in public service roles that weren't closely related to government, politics, or law. While I didn't make any useful connections for law school purposes, I did get to demonstrate good work ethic, positive interactions with clients and co-workers, etc. Being able to talk about that intelligently during interviews probably helped demonstrate maturity and discipline to some extent. Unexpectedly, I think being married also helped place me firmly in the "adult" instead of "kid" category. I'm often told/teased that I look considerably younger than I am (late twenties), so I'm always grateful for whatever pushes an interviewer's opinion toward viewing me as a mature, responsible adult. I do think my WE helped. None of the other summer associates at my firm were k-JD, so it almost certainly helped in landing me the job I ended up taking.

Nova wrote:how did you manage to get resident tuition

& what are the best strategies to do so

My biggest regret from law school is failing to do this after my 1L year, because I likely would have gotten resident tuition for 2L if I had. Basically, you fill out some forms and mail them (you can find the packet here: http://www.law.umn.edu/uploads/Af/-2/Af ... rocity.pdf). Be as thorough as possible in your responses. Eventually, you'll hear from the campus office that handles all residency requests (for all of UMN, not just the law school). A very nice older lady will want to meet with you, and so you head over to West Bank and talk with her for about 20 minutes.

She'll want to "get a better sense" of who you are. Be enthusiastic about Minnesota, the law school, and the roots you've put down here. She LOVED hearing that I had participated in TORT (our law school musical), that I was active on one of the school's competition teams, and that I'd spent my 1L and 2L summer working in the Twin Cities. Make sure to be clear that you really want to practice in Minnesota and that's why you chose to attend law school here. Just be pleasant, don't say anything negative about the school or the state, and bring up everything you've done in Minnesota.

And right then and there, she'll probably approve your request (or else you'll have to wait a couple of days and then it'll be approved). This was exactly my experience and it exactly matched the experience of a friend of mine from class of 2013 who was OOS from a coast with no MN connections coming in (he got approved after his 1L year). A couple of other OOS friends from the class of 2015 got resident tuition after their 1L year (although I didn't ask if they had the same experience I did with the informal interview).

I know rumors fly around about it being hard to get residency tuition (although I've never heard from anyone directly about being denied), and I think that keeps a lot of people from applying for it in the first place. So try, and with any luck, you'll succeed!

kd5 wrote: My biggest regret from law school is failing to do this after my 1L year, because I likely would have gotten resident tuition for 2L if I had. Basically, you fill out some forms and mail them (you can find the packet here: http://www.law.umn.edu/uploads/Af/-2/Af ... rocity.pdf). Be as thorough as possible in your responses. Eventually, you'll hear from the campus office that handles all residency requests (for all of UMN, not just the law school). A very nice older lady will want to meet with you, and so you head over to West Bank and talk with her for about 20 minutes.

She'll want to "get a better sense" of who you are. Be enthusiastic about Minnesota, the law school, and the roots you've put down here. She LOVED hearing that I had participated in TORT (our law school musical), that I was active on one of the school's competition teams, and that I'd spent my 1L and 2L summer working in the Twin Cities. Make sure to be clear that you really want to practice in Minnesota and that's why you chose to attend law school here. Just be pleasant, don't say anything negative about the school or the state, and bring up everything you've done in Minnesota.

And right then and there, she'll probably approve your request (or else you'll have to wait a couple of days and then it'll be approved). This was exactly my experience and it exactly matched the experience of a friend of mine from class of 2013 who was OOS from a coast with no MN connections coming in (he got approved after his 1L year). A couple of other OOS friends from the class of 2015 got resident tuition after their 1L year (although I didn't ask if they had the same experience I did with the informal interview).

I know rumors fly around about it being hard to get residency tuition (although I've never heard from anyone directly about being denied), and I think that keeps a lot of people from applying for it in the first place. So try, and with any luck, you'll succeed!

Thanks for this. Around what month did you apply and when do you find out?

Jchance wrote:Thanks for this. Around what month did you apply and when do you find out?

I applied in August of my 2L summer and found out in September of my 3L year (it was retroactive for my tuition for that semester). I should have done it in June, probably, and I should REALLY have done it in June of my 1L summer. I think there's a good chance it would have been granted then.

In terms of employment, did those who didn't get jobs through OCI but did find employment do so through hustling? Connections they had prior to law school? Basically, were there any common factors among them?

For the public defenders, do you know how much work they had to put in to get that outcome? Working at the office 1L and 2L summer, externships, etc?

Finally, if I'm not in the top half of grades after 1L, am I so screwed that I would be wise to drop?

The Dark Shepard wrote:In terms of employment, did those who didn't get jobs through OCI but did find employment do so through hustling? Connections they had prior to law school? Basically, were there any common factors among them?

For the public defenders, do you know how much work they had to put in to get that outcome? Working at the office 1L and 2L summer, externships, etc?

Finally, if I'm not in the top half of grades after 1L, am I so screwed that I would be wise to drop?

I'm a 3L at the U so I will weigh in on this a bit- not to hijack your thread!

I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to why some people get jobs and others don't. I have friends below me in rank/gpa/other qualifications who have great jobs and others who are academic all-stars, have great experience, but have nothing. I think it's really a matter of luck- having a connection that actually pays off, or some other random factor that makes the difference.

MN is a brutal market, honestly. I never wanted to leave but more and more I think I will have to leave the state to find work.

minnbills wrote:
MN is a brutal market, honestly. I never wanted to leave but more and more I think I will have to leave the state to find work.

This is an interesting comment since the common wisdom on TLS suggests one should only attend the U if they WILL remain in-state.

Aren't you an incoming 3L? Seems like there is quite a bit of time remaining to find a position and most students are still hustling for work.

minnbills wrote:

The Dark Shepard wrote:In terms of employment, did those who didn't get jobs through OCI but did find employment do so through hustling? Connections they had prior to law school? Basically, were there any common factors among them?

For the public defenders, do you know how much work they had to put in to get that outcome? Working at the office 1L and 2L summer, externships, etc?

Finally, if I'm not in the top half of grades after 1L, am I so screwed that I would be wise to drop?

I'm a 3L at the U so I will weigh in on this a bit- not to hijack your thread!

I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to why some people get jobs and others don't. I have friends below me in rank/gpa/other qualifications who have great jobs and others who are academic all-stars, have great experience, but have nothing. I think it's really a matter of luck- having a connection that actually pays off, or some other random factor that makes the difference.

MN is a brutal market, honestly. I never wanted to leave but more and more I think I will have to leave the state to find work.

I don't completely disagree with you, minnbills. I think factors like good grades, law review, charisma, hustling, strong writing samples, ties to the state, and demonstrating specific interest by volunteering all help, but I can still think of people who hit most or all of those characteristics and still didn't get jobs (yet). The market sucks, the three (TTT) other local law schools drain some jobs that would otherwise go to UMN students, and a large majority of the students at UMN are all gunning for the same target market.

Some of those factors are hard to spot though. A few of my friends have sent me their writing samples for feedback, and I've been shocked at a couple of them. Good grades do not equal strong legal writing skills. A few others are awesome people, but I cringe thinking of how they'd come off in an interview, because they're naturally awkward, overeager, etc. And I think it's really hard to know without outside feedback whether you fall into those categories.

And I'm NOT saying that everyone without jobs must interview badly or have shitty writing samples. I agree that bad luck is involved in many cases.

Dark Shepard:

Some of those who struck out at OCI or didn't get OCI interviews ended up working (often unpaid) during their 2L summers at small/medium firms, non-profits, a few government agencies, and sometimes externing (the school sets up externships with judges and corporate externships with big businesses). At that point, it really did seem to come down to luck of the draw. Some of the small/medium firms ended up hiring, some of the government agencies ended up hiring (not many though), some of the students were able to put off the search by landing state clerkships, and some students ended up with nothing. The one common factor was being willing to work in SOME capacity in the legal field despite being unpaid in many cases. And it goes without saying that they all hustled enough to find something during their 2L years instead of dropping that ball.

The few students I know for sure got public defender positions worked for the public defender's office during law school and applied widely. One of them ended up getting (and taking) a position in a rural town in a Mountain state (don't think he had ties either), which wasn't where he wanted to be, but hey, it's a public defender job.

If you're not in the top half after 1L and you're set on any form of BigLaw (local or elsewhere), drop out. If you're significantly below median after first semester with those same goals, drop out then to save yourself the extra money. I know people who did both, and I think they made the right decision.

That said, if you really just want to practice law, being below median isn't a death knell at UMN. As minnbills said, there's luck involved (and your luck is likely to be better if you hustle, in my experience). Word on the street is that even if you're in the bottom quartile, if you have a hard science undergrad degree you're set. Diversity IS a plus for hiring, at least if you're AA. Quite a few of the students I know who got 1L diversity SA positions are going to large firms despite below-median GPAs.

Whether to take the risk and go to UMN (assuming you want to practice in Minnesota or maybe the Dakotas) depends so much on the debt load you'll have. If I was starting fresh (with no guarantee I'd get my OCI job), I would really hesitate to take out anything more than $50k total, including COL.

I should also mention that some of the faculty at UMN will really go to bat for you in your job search. A few professors I've had send out emails or make announcements in class if an employer approaches them looking to hire a student. To get the emails, all you really need to do is participate in class (or spend time in office hours/after class engaging with the professor about the subject matter) - it doesn't necessarily matter if you did well on the exam. Not all professors will do this, but several will, and if you let your professors know you're looking, they're likely to remember that and might throw something your way.

I know people below median (some significantly below median) who landed jobs through the help of faculty and staff who were impressed by them throughout law school. It's always worth it to treat everyone with respect and to form relationships with professors and staff who clearly care about the students. Even if it doesn't pay off in getting a job, the Twin Cities is a small legal community, and having a good reputation might make a real difference down the line.

jbagelboy wrote:

minnbills wrote:
MN is a brutal market, honestly. I never wanted to leave but more and more I think I will have to leave the state to find work.

This is an interesting comment since the common wisdom on TLS suggests one should only attend the U if they WILL remain in-state.

Aren't you an incoming 3L? Seems like there is quite a bit of time remaining to find a position and most students are still hustling for work.

Yeah, I've come to disagree with the common refrain on UMN. I think the school likely plays better out of state. Every job opening in MN is flooded with resumes from the local schools, so it's hard to distinguish yourself. I also think UMN students do not have a significant advantage over WM and UST students for non-biglaw/clerkships. Many attorneys I know here say UMN has a reputation of churning out graduates who aren't ready for practice, whereas WM is focused solely on preparing people to practice from day one. If you're at a small firm, you probably don't care too much about whether the candidate is "smarter" or whatnot, but whether that person can come in and produce the work (which is likely not terribly complicated) right away.

To give you an example of this disconnect- at UMN our LW/moot court exercises are mostly appellate briefs. This is because the school assumes that is the kind of work its graduate do. At WM, their students write motions, memos, etc.

Yes I am an incoming 3L. I have had an extremely difficult time finding opportunities. Coming into law school, I knew it would be difficult to find work. I did my homework. But I am honestly shocked at how difficult it has been. I'm not a poor candidate either- middle of the class, dean's list, solid experience over the past couple years, good connections, born and bred in MN, and I interview reasonably well. The issue is there are 500+ other people just like me applying to every job.

Speaking to kd5's point about the writing sample and other factors, I just disagree. I would also say, not to be disparaging, that someone who went through the biglaw hiring route probably isn't as qualified as the rest of us to talk about hiring for other legal jobs. Once you've worked as a summer associate you are in a different league than everyone else for most of these jobs.

I have seen a couple of peoples' writing samples that were shockingly bad, both are working good jobs this summer though.

For the faculty, they are willing to help but by and large they don't go out and pound the pavement for you. They mean well and are generally helpful, but I don't think they appreciate how much things have changed since '08.

Rising 3L at the U here, I'll speak from my perspective. (not trying to hijack)
I agree that there is a perception that WM students work harder than the U students, not necessarily more practice-ready though.
The problem with the U students is that they want to stay in MN and (most) ONLY apply for jobs in MN. Given the amount of students the U pumps out, and how there is 2 law schools too many, some will not get any job, despite strong credential--they just didn't cast the net wide enough.
Also, some of the U students are super oblivious. They actually believe that if they do 3 year law school, a job is waiting for them at the end of the tunnel (probably from advertisement in the past--90+% employment rate). They start learning it the hard way in 2L spring or during 3L, which is technically too late.

minnbills wrote: Yeah, I've come to disagree with the common refrain on UMN. I think the school likely plays better out of state. Every job opening in MN is flooded with resumes from the local schools, so it's hard to distinguish yourself. I also think UMN students do not have a significant advantage over WM and UST students for non-biglaw/clerkships. Many attorneys I know here say UMN has a reputation of churning out graduates who aren't ready for practice, whereas WM is focused solely on preparing people to practice from day one. If you're at a small firm, you probably don't care too much about whether the candidate is "smarter" or whatnot, but whether that person can come in and produce the work (which is likely not terribly complicated) right away.

To give you an example of this disconnect- at UMN our LW/moot court exercises are mostly appellate briefs. This is because the school assumes that is the kind of work its graduate do. At WM, their students write motions, memos, etc.

Yes I am an incoming 3L. I have had an extremely difficult time finding opportunities. Coming into law school, I knew it would be difficult to find work. I did my homework. But I am honestly shocked at how difficult it has been. I'm not a poor candidate either- middle of the class, dean's list, solid experience over the past couple years, good connections, born and bred in MN, and I interview reasonably well. The issue is there are 500+ other people just like me applying to every job.

Speaking to kd5's point about the writing sample and other factors, I just disagree. I would also say, not to be disparaging, that someone who went through the biglaw hiring route probably isn't as qualified as the rest of us to talk about hiring for other legal jobs. Once you've worked as a summer associate you are in a different league than everyone else for most of these jobs.

I have seen a couple of peoples' writing samples that were shockingly bad, both are working good jobs this summer though.

For the faculty, they are willing to help but by and large they don't go out and pound the pavement for you. They mean well and are generally helpful, but I don't think they appreciate how much things have changed since '08.

Thanks for your remarks. I have a friend who just graduated from UMN this spring and he's joined a shop with 2 other attorneys since there was no paying private sector work available. Then again, he was not interested in remaining in MN and only targeted an out of state market.

It's funny because UMN has made such a concerted effort to market themselves as the "practicum" law school among the T20, with their record number of clinics, routine hiring of practicing attorneys, ect. But I suppose since the faculty and dean are firmly entrenched in the "academy" mindset (as part of a major university which still hires mostly from high power academics), UMN will inevitably lack the eminently local and trade-school flavor of Hamline or William Mitchell. Also up until your year at least, the school maintained a pretty impressive entering class probably composed by and large of the same pseudo-intellectual ambitious kids as the other T20's - which plus the disconnect in hiring you cited explains the retention of appellate moot courts ect. But it's too bad the practical emphasis in presentation and marketing hasn't trickled down to perception amongst employers.

Maybe you'll have more success out of market than you could predict - the "T20" thing has stuck and at least in NY and CA, and probably elsewhere too. Good luck

So going to the U doesn't give a tangible benefit vis-a-vis WM, UST, and Hamline in terms of non-Big Law hiring within the state of Minnesota?

You mentioned there was also a higher probability of someone not worrying until it is too late. In that sense, if one was to look at small law, DA/PD, PI, in smaller areas of Minnesota, would there be less people looking at that to the extent that it may give someone aware of the possibility of no job in the MSP market an advantage?

minnbills wrote:Speaking to kd5's point about the writing sample and other factors, I just disagree. I would also say, not to be disparaging, that someone who went through the biglaw hiring route probably isn't as qualified as the rest of us to talk about hiring for other legal jobs. Once you've worked as a summer associate you are in a different league than everyone else for most of these jobs.

To clarify, I'm not speaking from experience applying for other jobs personally - I basically won the law school lotto and haven't needed to job hunt during 2L or 3L. However, I'm the only one in my groups of friends who got a position through OCI, so I know a lot about their job hunts (and help however I can, although that's often just buying beer).

I think that WM and St. Thomas do sometimes get points for being more "practical" than UMN, and UMN needs to put way more resources into skills classes. The clinics are great, and it's mostly possible to do a clinic if you want to (more than 50% of grads have done them). You might not get your first choice, but you can usually get into one. It's the skills classes (not to mention activities like the negotiation team, mock trial teams, etc.) that need more support from the administration.

To get into classes like Depositions, Interviewing & Counseling, Litigation Practice, Pretrial Skills, etc. you have to be a 3L AND rank the class 1st or 2nd in our registration lottery to even have a shot at getting in. 2Ls just generally don't get in, and other than Contract Drafting (which is also almost impossible to get into as a 2L), these classes don't have multiple sections per semester. Twelve students get into each and that's it. In contrast, you'll have much better luck getting into big doctrinal courses and "Law and _____" courses, which just don't help with practical skills.

But I don't know anything about whether WM or St. Thomas is any better on those fronts - just that they have a generic reputation for being more practical.

The Dark Shepard wrote: You mentioned there was also a higher probability of someone not worrying until it is too late. In that sense, if one was to look at small law, DA/PD, PI, in smaller areas of Minnesota, would there be less people looking at that to the extent that it may give someone aware of the possibility of no job in the MSP market an advantage?

No because when those freak out about job search, they start targeting mid law, small law, DA/PD, PI in all Minnesota in late 2L and 3L year, thus the competition is even worse.

I would strongly discourage attending WM or Hamline as a full time student as an alternative to UMN, especially on the basis of water cooler talk about practical skills. A minority of the students at those programs will find full time paying work as attorneys, and of that minority many are PT students with specialized skills and backgrounds who can lend actual credence to the 'practical' vibe.

Minnesota's weaknesses do not balance out into TTT strengths so fluidly, it's just a smaller market all around

jbagelboy wrote:I would strongly discourage attending WM or Hamline as a full time student as an alternative to UMN, especially on the basis of water cooler talk about practical skills. A minority of the students at those programs will find full time paying work as attorneys, and of that minority many are PT students with specialized skills and backgrounds who can lend actual credence to the 'practical' vibe.

When I compare employment stats for these schools I don't see a material difference, honestly.

I think if you can get into UMN, you should take the full ride at WM. At either school, the odds are you will not have a great employment outcome, so you might as well eliminate the downside you can - debt.

I think going PT to William Witchell and using your spare time to work every legal job/volunteer position you can lay your hands on is a better move than going to UMN.

minnbills wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:I would strongly discourage attending WM or Hamline as a full time student as an alternative to UMN, especially on the basis of water cooler talk about practical skills. A minority of the students at those programs will find full time paying work as attorneys, and of that minority many are PT students with specialized skills and backgrounds who can lend actual credence to the 'practical' vibe.

When I compare employment stats for these schools I don't see a material difference, honestly.

I think if you can get into UMN, you should take the full ride at WM. At either school, the odds are you will not have a great employment outcome, so you might as well eliminate the downside you can - debt.

I think going PT to William Witchell and using your spare time to work every legal job/volunteer position you can lay your hands on is a better move than going to UMN.

I would venture that the difference lies in the availability for at least some of the class of elite employment - and the alumni network. The #1 student at Hamline probably transfers; the #2-3 can swing a summer associate position at a midwest firm; the #4-6 are doing doc review as a staff attorney and the rest figure out something at a family firm or state trial court after they sit for the bar. Minnesota outcomes may be disappointing relative to expectation, but not in an absolute sense comparatively.

jbagelboy wrote: I would venture that the difference lies in the availability for at least some of the class of elite employment - and the alumni network.

So few people get these positions even at UMN that it's not worth thinking about. Moreover, a big chunk of those people (I would guess about 1/3) got those jobs through IP or diversity.

No one should go to Hamline under any circumstances.

minnbills wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:I would strongly discourage attending WM or Hamline as a full time student as an alternative to UMN, especially on the basis of water cooler talk about practical skills. A minority of the students at those programs will find full time paying work as attorneys, and of that minority many are PT students with specialized skills and backgrounds who can lend actual credence to the 'practical' vibe.

When I compare employment stats for these schools I don't see a material difference, honestly.

How are you comparing? There's a pretty giant gap in the LST percentages for full-time, long-term, bar passage-required, non-solo employment:

UMN - 69%
WM - 56.9% (up from 49.2% in 2012)
Hamline - 42.2%
St. T - 41.8%

Those are the numbers for the class of 2013. And that only counts school-funded jobs that are long-term, which is only 1.8% for UMN.

The number of large firm jobs and federal clerkships at UMN is low compared to similarly ranked schools, but it's non-negligible at: 13.5% + 3.6% (17.1% total). For reference, that's not too far from an entire 1L section (UMN section size = 20% of the class), especially if you add in the small handful who get MN Supreme Court and Appellate Court clerkships. If you want a shot at local biglaw, it's the only in-state school that really gives you one (Hamline's adds up to 2.1% total, St. Thomas's to 5.1%, and WM's to 3.7%).

minnbills, I'm not saying that UMN is a great law school choice, that it actually deserves to be in the top 20 on USNWR, or that there aren't a lot of 3Ls and recent grads with regrets about attending. I really do think that even 0Ls with the goal of practicing in Minnesota and who don't mind the idea of doing shitlaw should only attend UMN if they can do it with $50k total debt or lower, but I think it's clear that UMN gives you a significantly better chance of becoming a practicing attorney than the other Twin Cities schools.