Page 1 of 2
What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:46 pm
by strikefirefall
I already know that in most cases, the only grade you receive is the final exam. But do you have projects, papers, presentations, etc during the semester?
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:57 pm
by shock259
No to all.
Every day is basically the same. Your professor assigns you cases to read. They are confusing, meandering, and often very poorly-written. You (ideally) read the cases before class. Your professor will call on random students and ask them questions about the cases that were assigned. The questions usually begin fairly easily, but get more difficult. Examples include: what are the facts of the case? Why did the court decide it this way? What would the court have said if this fact were changed? How would the court rule in this hypothetical situation?
You do this for 3 months, then take a final exam that is worth 100% of your grade. The exam gives you a hypothetical situation and asks you to apply the law you've learned.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:06 pm
by OneMoreLawHopeful
shock259 wrote:No to all.
Every day is basically the same. Your professor assigns you cases to read. They are confusing, meandering, and often very poorly-written. You (ideally) read the cases before class. Your professor will call on random students and ask them questions about the cases that were assigned. The questions usually begin fairly easily, but get more difficult. Examples include: what are the facts of the case? Why did the court decide it this way? What would the court have said if this fact were changed? How would the court rule in this hypothetical situation?
You do this for 3 months, then take a final exam that is worth 100% of your grade. The exam gives you a hypothetical situation and asks you to apply the law you've learned.
Caveat: this is true for 80% of your 1L classes, but at every school you have a legal research/writing class which will involve papers you turn in, things that look like presentations, etc. Sometimes this class is called "legal writing" sometimes it's called "lawyering skills" etc. but every school has one as part of their 1L curriculum.
The trouble with this class is that it's hard to tell how much value you derive from it. At most schools your legal writing grade will not go into your gpa (it might be pass/fail, you might get a letter grade that isn't averaged in, it's a little different at different schools, but it usually doesn't affect your gpa). However, it looks REALLY BAD to future employers if your grades are all As, but then your legal writing grade is a C. Even at schools where the class is pass/fail, many people depend upon legal writing to produce the writing sample they use at OCI, so the class can still have importance even if it is pass/fail.
Because of the tension between "it's not affecting my gpa" and "but it will look bad if I get a C and/or I need a writing sample" it's hard to tell how much time/effort to put into legal writing; you will definitely hate it at times.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:17 pm
by minnbills
It fucking sucks
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:41 pm
by strikefirefall
shock259 wrote:No to all.
Every day is basically the same. Your professor assigns you cases to read. They are confusing, meandering, and often very poorly-written. You (ideally) read the cases before class. Your professor will call on random students and ask them questions about the cases that were assigned. The questions usually begin fairly easily, but get more difficult. Examples include: what are the facts of the case? Why did the court decide it this way? What would the court have said if this fact were changed? How would the court rule in this hypothetical situation?
You do this for 3 months, then take a final exam that is worth 100% of your grade. The exam gives you a hypothetical situation and asks you to apply the law you've learned.
Maybe I'm only saying this because I don't currently have to deal with it, but that actually sounds very interesting.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:45 pm
by sundontshine
strikefirefall wrote:
Maybe I'm only saying this because I don't currently have to deal with it, but that actually sounds very interesting.
It might sound that way, but it's not. Class is an enormous waste of time in 99% of all sessions. Even if you start with all the drive and passion in the world, by October you'll be not paying attention and screwing around on the Internet with the rest of your classmates rather than listen to your professor ask questions that are irrelevant for your life or the final exam.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:47 pm
by moneybagsphd
minnbills wrote:It fucking sucks
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:49 pm
by bulinus
Did you go to college? It's like college.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:53 pm
by Nova
bulinus wrote:Did you go to college? It's like college.
yeah. 15 hours a week of class. do whatever you want the rest of the time
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:10 am
by jbagelboy
if you use class time to build your outline with your particular professor's analysis of each case, rather than trying to ace cold calls and follow the bullshit streaming from other students, it will be more productive.
I don't find law school to be very much like college at all. When people on TLS say that, it makes me feel bad for them about their college experience. I mean, I agree with the "free" time element, and maybe it's just because my personal life and substance use/abuse habits were so different when I was younger (18-21) and I went to a small elite private college and now I'm in a huge city, but law school has a very different rhythm from undergrad.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:15 am
by kevgogators
Do professors generally give out "study guides" or publish previous exams like some professors in UG? Are the exams typically multiple long response questions? If you sit in the front, participate frequently, and smooch some ass are you more likely to score higher?
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:16 am
by spleenworship
Seriously though, it just kind of sucks. It is more work and stress than undergrad, but not intolerable. You'll be working on LS related things 6 days a week or so, but you'll have time to chill everyday.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:20 am
by A. Nony Mouse
kevgogators wrote:Do professors generally give out "study guides" or publish previous exams like some professors in UG? Are the exams typically multiple long response questions? If you sit in the front, participate frequently, and smooch some ass are you more likely to score higher?
Profs almost always release previous exams, sometimes with model answers - you may get a prof who hasn't taught the course before/often, so doesn't have any/many old exams, but that's not usually the case. Format varies; a typical 3-hour exam will have 2-3 questions to answer, but some profs will do multiple shorter answers (I think my 4 hr. crim exam had 2 long questions and then something like 8 short answer questions; my 3 hr. evidence exam was something like 12 short-ish questions). And grading is blind, so class participation means absolutely nothing. (Caveat: some profs reserve the right to bump people up/down for participation, but generally speaking, the only thing that matters is getting points on the exam.)
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:35 am
by strikefirefall
bulinus wrote:Did you go to college? It's like college.
I went to college, but I was mainly referring to the work you have to do. And apparently law school is not like college.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:16 am
by Volake
You typically will prepare for class by reading the casebook, which will often consist of an explanation of an aspect of the law in the are in which you are studying as well as cases for which this new introduced aspect is relevant in some way. Questions and comments may introduce slight variations of the facts of the cases, challenge the reasoning of the opinion, introduce other contexts in which the aspect comes into play, consider how that aspect interacts with other principles and policies involved in the legal subject matter, and/or explore many other considerations of the case or aspect of the law.
In class, the professor may decide to go right to the cases, cold-calling people to establish the facts, reasoning of the court, etc. However, because the cases read are typically appellate-level or higher, the questions the cases bring up are difficult to resolve, and the professor will often encourage challenges and defenses to the judge's resolution of the case. Beyond individual cases, you may be asked to evaluate doctrines: are they wise, might they be improved, why might they have developed?
I found the typical law school class very fun and satisfying.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:41 am
by bjsesq
Sometimes, in negotiations, you get to make animals out of construction paper. I made a snake.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:51 am
by ymmv
sundontshine wrote:strikefirefall wrote:
Maybe I'm only saying this because I don't currently have to deal with it, but that actually sounds very interesting.
It might sound that way, but it's not. Class is an enormous waste of time in 99% of all sessions. Even if you start with all the drive and passion in the world, by October you'll be not paying attention and screwing around on the Internet with the rest of your classmates rather than listen to your professor ask questions that are irrelevant for your life or the final exam.
This really only describes my two worst classes so far, which were atrocious. Most of my others were engaging and actually pretty entertaining, with professors who were skilled at shutting down gunners and keeping the material relevant to the exams.
My grades have also tended to correlate loosely with my level of enjoyment in each class, so make of that what you will.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:20 am
by kalvano
The problem with law school classes is that, with some exceptions, very little effort is made to correlate what you're learning to real-world application. So most classes end up being kind of useless, especially first-year classes.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:29 am
by elterrible78
kalvano wrote:The problem with law school classes is that, with some exceptions, very little effort is made to correlate what you're learning to real-world application. So most classes end up being kind of useless, especially first-year classes.
This. For me, less real world application = more philosophical masturbation = more participation by my most annoying classmates = more of me wondering why I didn't join the circus.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:47 am
by Young Marino
jbagelboy wrote:if you use class time to build your outline with your particular professor's analysis of each case, rather than trying to ace cold calls and follow the bullshit streaming from other students, it will be more productive.
I don't find law school to be very much like college at all. When people on TLS say that, it makes me feel bad for them about their college experience. I mean, I agree with the "free" time element, and maybe it's just because my personal life and substance use/abuse habits were so different when I was younger (18-21) and I went to a small elite private college and now I'm in a huge city, but law school has a very different rhythm from undergrad.
I like the idea of working on an outline while in class. I'm assuming this is usually started in October when you start to feel a little burnt out?
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:52 am
by despina
The "read cases / get cold called / all your grade is one exam" does dominate 1L year, but after that you should have more choice and variety. Your doctrinal classes (evidence, corporations, labor law, etc) will likely still be roughly that format, though I've found that a lot of upper-level class profs calm down the cold-calling and are more likely to use a panel system (you're only on call sometimes) or take more volunteers.
You should also have the option to take upper-level classes that look more like an undergrad seminar -- lots of reading including academic articles, not just cases, smaller class with more free-flowing discussion. Those classes' grades might involve participation, writing a research paper, leading one day of class, etc.
You may also get to take "workshop" type classes, for example, in trial advocacy, negotiation, etc. Those classes are very "active" and involve a lot of role-play and constant feedback on what you're learning. Sadly my Negotiation Workshop did not involve making paper snakes, but it was excellent nonetheless.
And of course clinics are a whole different deal. You represent real clients with real cases, under the supervision of your clinical prof (or an outside organization).
I was actually surprised to find that almost all my 1L classes have come in useful at some point during my (2L) summer internship, but that might be a weird fluke of what I'm doing.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:53 am
by DELG
bjsesq wrote:Sometimes, in negotiations, you get to make animals out of construction paper. I made a snake.
Whenever you see people participating in a class that appears to involve doing incredibly asinine shit, sign up for it immediately.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:53 am
by lawhopeful10
Young Marino wrote:jbagelboy wrote:if you use class time to build your outline with your particular professor's analysis of each case, rather than trying to ace cold calls and follow the bullshit streaming from other students, it will be more productive.
I don't find law school to be very much like college at all. When people on TLS say that, it makes me feel bad for them about their college experience. I mean, I agree with the "free" time element, and maybe it's just because my personal life and substance use/abuse habits were so different when I was younger (18-21) and I went to a small elite private college and now I'm in a huge city, but law school has a very different rhythm from undergrad.
I like the idea of working on an outline while in class. I'm assuming this is usually started in October when you start to feel a little burnt out?
Some people take notes in class directly into their outline. This is teacher dependent but my teachers were very clear in class and what was tested on the exam was what they talked about so being engaged in class was really important. I'm sure there are other professors where you can zone out and just read a supplement or something.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:54 am
by bjsesq
DELG wrote:bjsesq wrote:Sometimes, in negotiations, you get to make animals out of construction paper. I made a snake.
Whenever you see people participating in a class that appears to involve doing incredibly asinine shit, sign up for it immediately.
A solid rule of thumb.
Re: What is Law School really like?
Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:54 am
by despina
Young Marino wrote:jbagelboy wrote:if you use class time to build your outline with your particular professor's analysis of each case, rather than trying to ace cold calls and follow the bullshit streaming from other students, it will be more productive.
I don't find law school to be very much like college at all. When people on TLS say that, it makes me feel bad for them about their college experience. I mean, I agree with the "free" time element, and maybe it's just because my personal life and substance use/abuse habits were so different when I was younger (18-21) and I went to a small elite private college and now I'm in a huge city, but law school has a very different rhythm from undergrad.
I like the idea of working on an outline while in class. I'm assuming this is usually started in October when you start to feel a little burnt out?
I think the suggestion is not "zone out entirely in class and just work on your outline," but rather "take notes with outlining in mind." In other words, it's helpful for making your outline later if your notes already include, for each case, the holding, key facts, professor's "take" on it, as well as general things like what types of policy arguments does the prof tend to emphasize, what themes seem to be running though the class.
There are lots of threads on this and what works for each person will vary, but outlining in October seems 100% insane to me.
ETA: I think one thing jbagelboy may be getting at is that the level of detail needed to ace a cold call is WAY higher than the level of detail you'll need to know for an exam. So in other words, when you're taking notes in class from other people's cold calls, don't necessarily focus on taking down everything verbatim, especially small details (for example, except in civ pro, usually the jurisdiction and procedural posture of the case aren't super important, even though sometimes your contracts prof might ask whether the opinion comes out of a motion for summary judgement, etc).