"Revolving door"? Forum

[mt2165]

Hi all,so while I was at a T6 ASD a couple of the students (planning on practicing in DC) where speaking of a "revolving door" between DC biglaw and bigfed. While I'm sure there is some substantial interchange between the two, how accurate is this? Seems a bit overstated, seems like the transition is dependent on a lot of factors. I only ask because I suppose my preliminary goal is DC biglaw -> bigfed/PI. Thanks.

[TooOld4This]

It's true, but applicable to a small percentage of people. Federal hiring is tough and hundreds of people apply for every job. Experience is key, so you need to have been practicing in the area you are applying for. Being a general litigator isn't usually enough unless you have also been networking. And once you specialize at the firm, you limit yourself to only a couple of agencies. Also, the government is fairly suspicious of people from BigLaw coming over for QOL reasons.

Strategy, timing and luck are all needed.

[mt2165]

It's true, but applicable to a small percentage of people. Federal hiring is tough and hundreds of people apply for every job. Experience is key, so you need to have been practicing in the area you are applying for. Being a general litigator isn't usually enough unless you have also been networking. And once you specialize at the firm, you limit yourself to only a couple of agencies. Also, the government is fairly suspicious of people from BigLaw coming over for QOL reasons.

Strategy, timing and luck are all needed.

Thanks a lot. That makes sense. I'd go straight gov if I could I'm just not comfortable being a LRAP dependent for a decade. Does the prestige of the firm matter as much for gov hiring, or is that only contingent insofar as networking is concerned?

[defdef]

Anecdotally speaking, a friend of mine who works at a newer federal bureau was telling me that several of the lawyers he's worked with have left for private practice, including at least one that got a partnership straight away. Granted he had previous experience, but this speaks to the "revolving door" I think.

0L here though.

[mt2165]

hmmm yeah that makes sense, I guess what I'm trying to ascertain is whether its a viable plan to work in DC biglaw with the intention of working in government eventually or whether you have much better chances gunning for govt right out of law school.

[jarofsoup]

It is pretty fluid. People leave big firms to come to the gov/ with the hope of getting better hours. People leave fed to get the big pay of big firms or just a different experience.

The government experience is a very valuable commodity in DC to have.

[DELG]

"The job seeker had done (almost) everything right: Graduated with honors from a top law school, clerked for an appellate court, practiced at an “A-List” firm, and then went to a government agency to top off his experience and make him partnership material. Imagine his shock when I advised him that landing a general litigation position in Biglaw now that he was 12 years out of law school would be tough without a book of business. After all, he had seen the “revolving door” in Washington; how could it be shut now, he wondered? I conceded that many attorneys in D.C. do move with ease between government and private practice, but that the ones he read about in the Washington Post were high-level officials who firms know will bring in business. “And I’m just a worker bee,” he acknowledged….


Moving to the government after a few years in Biglaw can “round out” a lawyer’s skill set by providing opportunities – like appearing in court – that are harder to come by as a junior associate working in Biglaw. But, although that additional experience can make an attorney more valuable to Biglaw upon return, there are many considerations to be aware of, including the timing of the government stint, the transferability of the skills, and the relative prestige of the position in government. As Laura Hosid, a former Associate Director of the Office of Career Services at Georgetown University Law Center, sagely advised, a government attorney who ultimately wants to return to a firm “should always be mindful of this goal when making professional choices.”

TIMING: A lateral associate’S “BEST BY” DATE

A 10th-year Harvard Law grad once advised me that he planned to remain at DOJ as a general litigator “a while longer” to get more experience. His misconception – that the longer a government attorney remains with the government, the more valuable he or she becomes to a firm – is common. In fact, once an attorney goes into the government, the question of how long to stay and still be attractive to firms is complicated and can vary dramatically depending on the area of law. The decision requires a delicate balance between gaining the desired experience and an associate’s “expiration date.” Someone more than seven years out of law school could find returning difficult, because firms usually require a three-year “look” before considering an attorney for partnership. As Lateral Link senior director Tricia McGrath explained previously on Above the Law, “You want to ensure that you have enough time to become well-known and well-regarded both within your practice group and the firm. You’ll need to demonstrate that you’ll be a positive addition to the business of the law firm, and that you’ll be able to contribute in significantly beneficial ways.”

But coming out of the government as a sixth- or seventh-year is no longer necessarily career ending, Lateral Link principal Larry Latourette noted, because the partnership track is now closer to nine years.

So, what is the model timeline for a Biglaw associate hoping to do a stint with the federal government? In the past, that meant that two or three years at Biglaw, then three or four years in the government, before heading back to Biglaw. But Hosid (who’s now a career coach at Vinik EPS) cautioned, “you can’t wait until you are ready to leave Biglaw to start” applying to the government. The hiring process is even slower than most people expect, and “etween hiring freezes, background checks, and the bureaucratic nature of the government interview process,” she noted, “it could take up to a year or more.”

TRANSFERABILITY OF THE SKILLS

What’s more, as one DOJ trial attorney who handled immigration litigation and Guantanamo Bay habeas corpus cases learned, not all government experience is valuable to the private sector; the transferability of the skills, experience, and expertise must be considered. Hosid said that trial experience positions have the most universal appeal to firms but that “even some trial attorney positions will be limited to specific non-Article III courts or narrow subject matter, or will focus on criminal matters with little direct Biglaw applicability beyond white collar defense.” That was the case for one Assistant U.S. Attorney, who needed to recast himself as a white-collar litigator after prosecuting hundreds of major felonies and taking dozens of criminal cases to trial. But some niche practices that require specialized knowledge – such as government contracts and certain regulatory work – can be very marketable to Biglaw. For example, one trend among the “aspiring appellate elite,” Above the Law previously reported, is to leave DC for positions elsewhere as state solicitor generals with plans to ultimately return to private practice after accruing experience in front of appellate panels.

RELATIVE PRESTIGE OF THE POSITION

An attorney who spends more than eight years in the government “better be really good” to expect to return to Biglaw, Latourette cautioned. But even if a government attorney becomes an expert in a niche area, Hosid warned, they often join a firm as counsel rather than as partner.

A government attorney can take steps to best position himself to return to Biglaw, however, by establishing and maintaining the relationships (within the confines of conflict limitations) that will make developing business possible after rejoining a firm. What can a government attorney do?

Join practice-specific ABA and/or D.C. Bar sections.
Take advantage of Bar association events that include both private and public sector attorneys.
Develop a reputation by writing articles and speaking at conventions.
Keep in touch with former colleagues from Biglaw as well as those who leave the government for the private sector. Attorneys frequently return to their former firms, so maintaining those ties is critical.
Build relationships in the non-legal community.
Participate in social media such as LinkedIn groups.
Establish private sector credentials; a government attorney’s resume must also reflect some prior interest in representing the interests of the private sector; otherwise, said Latourette, a firm may question whether the attorney “can wear the non-white hat.”
Of course there have been exceptions… a government attorney who stayed too long but still managed to snag a plum position in private practice. Because, as the saying goes, “Whoever said nothing’s impossible never tried to slam a revolving door.” Still, it’s easier if you know how the door works."

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/05/when-the ... lams-shut/

[mt2165]

"The job seeker had done (almost) everything right: Graduated with honors from a top law school, clerked for an appellate court, practiced at an “A-List” firm, and then went to a government agency to top off his experience and make him partnership material. Imagine his shock when I advised him that landing a general litigation position in Biglaw now that he was 12 years out of law school would be tough without a book of business. After all, he had seen the “revolving door” in Washington; how could it be shut now, he wondered? I conceded that many attorneys in D.C. do move with ease between government and private practice, but that the ones he read about in the Washington Post were high-level officials who firms know will bring in business. “And I’m just a worker bee,” he acknowledged….


Moving to the government after a few years in Biglaw can “round out” a lawyer’s skill set by providing opportunities – like appearing in court – that are harder to come by as a junior associate working in Biglaw. But, although that additional experience can make an attorney more valuable to Biglaw upon return, there are many considerations to be aware of, including the timing of the government stint, the transferability of the skills, and the relative prestige of the position in government. As Laura Hosid, a former Associate Director of the Office of Career Services at Georgetown University Law Center, sagely advised, a government attorney who ultimately wants to return to a firm “should always be mindful of this goal when making professional choices.”

TIMING: A LATERAL ASSOCIATE’S “BEST BY” DATE

A 10th-year Harvard Law grad once advised me that he planned to remain at DOJ as a general litigator “a while longer” to get more experience. His misconception – that the longer a government attorney remains with the government, the more valuable he or she becomes to a firm – is common. In fact, once an attorney goes into the government, the question of how long to stay and still be attractive to firms is complicated and can vary dramatically depending on the area of law. The decision requires a delicate balance between gaining the desired experience and an associate’s “expiration date.” Someone more than seven years out of law school could find returning difficult, because firms usually require a three-year “look” before considering an attorney for partnership. As Lateral Link senior director Tricia McGrath explained previously on Above the Law, “You want to ensure that you have enough time to become well-known and well-regarded both within your practice group and the firm. You’ll need to demonstrate that you’ll be a positive addition to the business of the law firm, and that you’ll be able to contribute in significantly beneficial ways.”

But coming out of the government as a sixth- or seventh-year is no longer necessarily career ending, Lateral Link principal Larry Latourette noted, because the partnership track is now closer to nine years.

So, what is the model timeline for a Biglaw associate hoping to do a stint with the federal government? In the past, that meant that two or three years at Biglaw, then three or four years in the government, before heading back to Biglaw. But Hosid (who’s now a career coach at Vinik EPS) cautioned, “you can’t wait until you are ready to leave Biglaw to start” applying to the government. The hiring process is even slower than most people expect, and “etween hiring freezes, background checks, and the bureaucratic nature of the government interview process,” she noted, “it could take up to a year or more.”

TRANSFERABILITY OF THE SKILLS

What’s more, as one DOJ trial attorney who handled immigration litigation and Guantanamo Bay habeas corpus cases learned, not all government experience is valuable to the private sector; the transferability of the skills, experience, and expertise must be considered. Hosid said that trial experience positions have the most universal appeal to firms but that “even some trial attorney positions will be limited to specific non-Article III courts or narrow subject matter, or will focus on criminal matters with little direct Biglaw applicability beyond white collar defense.” That was the case for one Assistant U.S. Attorney, who needed to recast himself as a white-collar litigator after prosecuting hundreds of major felonies and taking dozens of criminal cases to trial. But some niche practices that require specialized knowledge – such as government contracts and certain regulatory work – can be very marketable to Biglaw. For example, one trend among the “aspiring appellate elite,” Above the Law previously reported, is to leave DC for positions elsewhere as state solicitor generals with plans to ultimately return to private practice after accruing experience in front of appellate panels.

RELATIVE PRESTIGE OF THE POSITION

An attorney who spends more than eight years in the government “better be really good” to expect to return to Biglaw, Latourette cautioned. But even if a government attorney becomes an expert in a niche area, Hosid warned, they often join a firm as counsel rather than as partner.

A government attorney can take steps to best position himself to return to Biglaw, however, by establishing and maintaining the relationships (within the confines of conflict limitations) that will make developing business possible after rejoining a firm. What can a government attorney do?

Join practice-specific ABA and/or D.C. Bar sections.
Take advantage of Bar association events that include both private and public sector attorneys.
Develop a reputation by writing articles and speaking at conventions.
Keep in touch with former colleagues from Biglaw as well as those who leave the government for the private sector. Attorneys frequently return to their former firms, so maintaining those ties is critical.
Build relationships in the non-legal community.
Participate in social media such as LinkedIn groups.
Establish private sector credentials; a government attorney’s resume must also reflect some prior interest in representing the interests of the private sector; otherwise, said Latourette, a firm may question whether the attorney “can wear the non-white hat.”
Of course there have been exceptions… a government attorney who stayed too long but still managed to snag a plum position in private practice. Because, as the saying goes, “Whoever said nothing’s impossible never tried to slam a revolving door.” Still, it’s easier if you know how the door works."

http://abovethelaw.com/2014/05/when-the ... lams-shut/

Wow great link, thanks!

[Power_of_Facing]

"Devolving roar!"