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Hello TLS,

I'm a graduating 3L in a huge but saturated market. I have not been on TLS for a while, but I've been reflecting on my law school experience, and I feel like I should share my perspective I'm the "exception" in a lot of ways, but not in the top 10% of my class sort of way.

I retook and increased my LSAT score by 15 points, I got off a waitlist and then negotiated 15k off my tuition + a housing stipend, and I got kind of crappy grades but still got a really competitive FedGov position during my 3L year. Some of this was sheer luck, some of it was not. Below is some advice for people in various phases, and I am happy to answer specific questions.

Pre-applicants considering law school/LSATs

Just skip this part if your mind is made up. But first, please do not go for the money. If you are smart enough to get into 1-14, you can make good money more easily some other way. Do not go to law school for the prestige, because a JD in itself is no longer prestigious, and it could well become a liability if law is not for you. Do not go in thinking you are the exception--you probably aren't.

This might be kind of a shitty thing to say, but most people are probably in law school for the wrong reasons, and many of you are smart enough that it is sort of a waste of your talent and a disservice to society that you should leave the job market for 3 years to enter a profession that does not need you. Furthermore, there are many positions that you can get with a college or masters degree that are extremely similar to transactional/regulatory compliance work--you could work your way up in three years and be making great money at one of these jobs without all the debt.

But, if you would never be happy doing anything but litigating, working your way up in politics, or influencing policy by working in government, go ahead. If you have a hard science background/research experience and the idea of insane hours does not bother you, go ahead, you can probably get a great job even if your grades aren't that great. School choice also matters less for you--go with the $$ over rank (within reason). I also do not discourage those going into public interest work--just please make sure you 1) get a great scholarship and 2) amass a TON of DEMONSTRATED interest in your area of PI. PI jobs are insanely competitive, but your dedication to your PI area weighs as heavily as your grades or school rank.

In sum, think hard about what being a lawyer means, and be realistic about where you stand.

LSAT

I don't really remember how I improved so much, just mainly drilling and managing test anxiety. I think PowerScore materials are awesome and helped me more than my LSAT class did. I know I am in the minority, but having taken a prep class, I think LSAT classes are a complete ripoff because the real improvement comes with drilling and reviewing the answers. I never found the instructors' answers any more helpful than PowerScore's.

Applications

1. Are you waitlisted or in limbo? LOCIs work. Be honest if you are moving for a relationship or family reason, and try to make a live appointment with someone if the school allows it. Law schools are run by human beings.

2. Negotiating: if you can, try to leverage your scholarships with similar schools in similar markets. If the schools have a rivalry or if two schools flip back forth in the rankings, I think you have a better chance at squeezing more scholarship money.

Entering students/1Ls

Like I said, I've never done super hot gradeswise, so I won't give you study advice. I'm pretty sure that my grades negatively correlate to the amount of effort I put into the class. As a 2L, I strategically took classes with professors who had given me good grades because I knew I was good at their exam "style," and that worked.

Mostly, it's about not freaking out, and studying-wise, doing what works for you--do not constantly worry about how other students are preparing. Do not be afraid of your professors even if they are aggressive with cold calls. Remember, the point is performance on the exam--in-class performance counts minimally if at all. You're going to say something just completely idiotic one day in a sea of 100 highly educated people. Accept that. Nobody cares.

If you hate 1st semester OR even 1L year, PLEASE drop out. Look up "sunk costs fallacy"--don't be that guy. Did someone tell you 2L year was easier? That's a raging lie people tell tired 1Ls who think they cannot handle another year. Sorry kids, it doesn't get better until 3L, and that's really only after you score a job. 2L year is ridiculously challenging if you are doing it right, which means you are doing journal, moot court, or both. Many people will still be job searching too. 2L sucks hard.

Getting a job outside of OCI

This is really hard, but it can be done. I did not get a job out of OCI. One firm, at which I had substantial connections, told me flat out that my grades were not good enough. Statistically speaking, there's a good chance your grades will not be good enough unless you are T14.

If this happens to you, don't just sit around applying to mid-sized employment law firms, or whatever comes up, and make some bullshit connection to your interests that doesn't exist. Find a growing market specialty that you enjoy, perhaps something not so glamorous, and work it to death. If you want to target employment law firms, join the employment law clinic and be vice-president of the fucking employment law society and find a way to write your note on employment law. I would recommend picking something narrow, like a regulatory specialty, environmental law, health care law--something where you know there is growth in the market. I would not suddenly become a PI person. PI is fucking competitive, NOT a backup if you didn't get biglaw.

Have two versions of your resume.
1) generic resume and cover letter that you will send to every open position you find, because if you're unemployed, and you must apply everywhere. You will downplay your specialty a bit and you will probably find some contrived connection to their firm for the cover letter. These aren't wastes of times, I've gotten interviews for strange reasons/connections reviewers have found.

2) Your specialty resume that highlights your area of interest/expertise and a cover letter explaining why you love (x) law so goddam much. I mean, just check out my resume: res ipsa bitches. I've spoken with many lawyers who agree with this--pick your field and aggressively apply to those positions if your grades aren't going to get you places. Never act like you're an "expert" in any type of law, you will seem like a douche. Just highlight how much effort you have put into learning about the field and demonstrate your dedication every way possible.

OK, well, that was longer than expected. Send me questions if you want.

What made you go with the Ah! Real Monsters tar?

Danger Zone wrote:What made you go with the Ah! Real Monsters tar?

Oblina is my spirit animal.

A couple questions, then:

1) Did your career services office do anything for you, or were you kind of on your own in terms of finding a legal job?
2) You got a fedgov job your 3L -- obviously you don't want to out yourself too much, but the selection rates on those are like 1-2%. What did you do to be part of that 1-2%?
3) I'm guessing if you got off a waitlist with 15k + some housing money, you were a ways away from the full ride TLS seems to recommend for regional schools. Appreciating that you're in a saturated market, would you have gone again for the same costs?
4) There is some postulation that lower-ranked schools have a good number of law students that are absolutely oblivious to just how bad the market is -- and are thus less motivated to "gun" for a spot while in law school. Do you find this to be true at your school?
5) What would have you done differently at OCI?
6) What affect did crappy 1L grades have on you? Were you hoping to transfer up?
7) You say you feel like you're "the exception" but why?
8 ) How do you plan on paying off your debt?

twenty wrote:A couple questions, then:

1) Did your career services office do anything for you, or were you kind of on your own in terms of finding a legal job?

My career services office did nothing for me, and I had generally negative experiences with them. They did, miraculously, help my friend get a biglaw job as a 3L, but it was through a networking event. Friend just impressed a partner a lot at the event and there was a space available that fit his background--kind a fluke. OCI numbers were abysmal.

2) You got a fedgov job your 3L -- obviously you don't want to out yourself too much, but the selection rates on those are like 1-2%. What did you do to be part of that 1-2%?

I am certain I was part of that 1-2% by specializing in a pretty specific field and having it shout from every corner of my resume. I knew a lot about the position, wrote a note very specific to that area of law that I was able to talk about it in my interview in a sophisticated way.

My "employment law" tirade below is a good example--you just need to become "the employment law guy" so that no one looking for an employment associate can ignore you just because of your grades. I would not suggest trying to become "the public defender guy" say, as a 3L, because your competition has been the "public defender guy" since first year. However, if you're a 2L and didn't get anything through OCI, consider getting hyper-interested in say, financial regulatory compliance, some type environmental regulatory law, energy law, communications law. If you don't have the grades, you can't afford to be a generalist too.

3) I'm guessing if you got off a waitlist with 15k + some housing money, you were a ways away from the full ride TLS seems to recommend for regional schools. Appreciating that you're in a saturated market, would you have gone again for the same costs?

Knowing what I know now, I would not have gone for the same costs. Please go to a T-14 if you're racking up any kind of significant debt.

There are just so many things you can do if you're smart enough to do well in law school. I have enjoyed some things, but not going to lie, last three years felt like 10. It's just all-consuming. A lot of people get fat, become more anxious, wreck relationships, drink too much, and generally act in unhealthy ways due to the pressure and environment.

4) There is some postulation that lower-ranked schools have a good number of law students that are absolutely oblivious to just how bad the market is -- and are thus less motivated to "gun" for a spot while in law school. Do you find this to be true at your school?

People in my school were hyper-aware of the bad market, and my class in particular was very intense. It can create a negative environment sometimes. I would imagine that could be true at schools really far down just because you'd have to be oblivious to the market to go there in the first place?

5) What would have you done differently at OCI?

This is a difficult question because I didn't really have much of a chance. I wish I had learned to relax earlier on in the process and done a lot more practice interviews. Try not to bring nervous energy into the room, and don't be afraid to be yourself or make jokes. Also, get a few attorneys to look at your resume, NOT just career services.

6) What affect did crappy 1L grades have on you? Were you hoping to transfer up?

Transferring was something I considered, but that was foreclosed by grades of course. It was just a tough pill to swallow that my hard work yielded mediocre results. It can make you want to give up because you get into a "grades will suck no matter how hard I try" mindset. It had the direct effect of making getting a job extremely difficult, and the indirect effect of generally bumming me out and making it harder to stay motivated.

7) You say you feel like you're "the exception" but why?

I'm an exception because of the reasons I listed--raising LSAT score 15 points, negotiating substantial $ off a waitlist (that wasn't YP), getting a competitive job with crappy grades. Exceptions to the rule.

8 ) How do you plan on paying off your debt?

Looks like IBR, tears, and possibly lateraling out of gov in the future to pay it off faster. I'm also thinking of working my way up in gov for 10 years until the debt disappears.