Top Law Schools

Poopface wrote:Paying sticker at lower t14, feelin good. big law SA this summer, hope it goes well. If not, whatever, i'll go from there. Not too worried about it, I'll figure out how to pay back the debt one way or another. Not going to let it bring me down that's for sure. Knew what I was getting myself into and made an informed decision to attend law school. Biglaw isn't the end all be all for me. Yea I want it, yea it would be the easiest/quickest way to pay off the debt, but if it doesn't happen, so be it, it is what it is. Even if i never work a single day as a lawyer I wouldn't regret the decision i made to attend law school. I've grown a lot as a person in law school, learned a lot, developed valuable skills, i've built a network just from being around my classmates that will stay with me throughout my professional career. I've had the opportunity to learn from some of the best and most accomplished legal professors in the country. I enjoy learning, I like class, oh yea and one thing's for sure i'll be graduating with a world class law degree next summer. At the end of the day, just have to be thankful for the opportunities you do have and work your hardest to take advantage of them. There are far worse things in this world than paying sticker at a lower t14

Thank you for the input. It's nice to hear the other, more positive side too.

Consider this:
*T14 at sticker is high-risk, better chance for high-reward.
*T15-30 with scholarship is low-risk, worse chance for high-reward.
Are you willing to take out more loans and also link your fate to whether or not you achieve success (biglaw, clerkships, PI) for an increased chance of getting that success?

Personally, I am quite debt-averse, but for some reason I am feeling rather okay with the idea of paying more money to go to a top law school. Hard to get what you want unless you roll the dice.

T15-30 is still not low risk. Debt is not the only pitfall. Shitlaw is worse than death IMO.

Yea All Right wrote: Consider this:
*T14 at sticker is high-risk, better chance for high-reward.
*T15-30 with scholarship is low-risk, worse chance for high-reward.
Are you willing to take out more loans and also link your fate to whether or not you achieve success (biglaw, clerkships, PI) for an increased chance of getting that success?

you've cracked the code. i was gonna buy a lotto ticket this weekend, but i just realized that if i buy 100,000 tickets i'm more likely to win. better hit the bank.

Desert Fox wrote:T15-30 is still not low risk. Debt is not the only pitfall. Shitlaw is worse than death IMO.

Agreed, I was just saying lower-risk in comparison to T14 at sticker.

patogordo wrote:

Yea All Right wrote: Consider this:
*T14 at sticker is high-risk, better chance for high-reward.
*T15-30 with scholarship is low-risk, worse chance for high-reward.
Are you willing to take out more loans and also link your fate to whether or not you achieve success (biglaw, clerkships, PI) for an increased chance of getting that success?

you've cracked the code. i was gonna buy a lotto ticket this weekend, but i just realized that if i buy 100,000 tickets i'm more likely to win. better hit the bank.

Hah it's over-simplified but I hope you understand what I'm getting at. Regarding the lotto tickets, you go Glen Coco!

Fordham with $105k.

Fordham is great for that price, but IFF you want to settle in the NYC area. The point is that once one drops much past GULC, transportability declines precipitously.

.

jfc

Never posted here, but this thread made me want to chime in:

Had some scholarships at Michigan and graduated with 150k in debt In 2012. Two things to note: First, that number increases every month after graduation until you start work. Second, what you owe at graduation is going to be more than what you borrowed, factor in interest before deciding.

I know I paid a lot less than sticker, but I still wonder. I never really wanted biglaw, but I worked at a Vault firm 2L summer because my grades were only average and I didn't think I could get the kind of public-interest work I really wanted. I was cold-offered, along with a few others . . . I'm sure my attitude of disinterest in the work didn't help my summer work, though I tried to pretend I enjoyed it. I landed on my feet at, clerking for an intermediate state appellate judge, and got a government job after that. There is no way I could pay my loans without LRAP. My balance goes up each month because I pay way less than the interest. Its scary. Sometimes I daydream about starting my own law firm after a few more years with the government, but there is no way I will do that until my 10 years are up. Sometimes I worry about what would happen if forgiveness was somehow pulled out from under us. I would be screwed. I try not to think about it, but its hard. And it really adds a level of stress that seems to harm my creativity and personality. I know the stress is much worse for some people and that many have more loans than me.

I didn't have a full-ride anywhere, but there are schools where I could have graduated with less debt, but still a lot. I had enough scholarships at one school that tuition was down to 4k, but it increased almost 15k over the next 3 years. Factor in cost of living and that's still 60k of debt. I know that I wouldn't have gotten my clerkship with median or even top third grades from a school outside the T14 and without the clerkship I probably wouldn't have my current job.

I also sometimes think what would have happened if I had ended up at the firm. Most likely I would have burned out in 3 years with 90k in debt still to my name.

.

OfThriceandTen wrote:I'm in possibly the best situation one can be in at a lower-t14, excluding family riches that could have saved me from this setup to begin with, and I am petrified of my loans. They give me fairly frequent anxiety/wake me up in cold sweats, anticipating getting no offered or laid off before I can pay off any significant amount. If I had it to do over again, I just wouldn't. This amount of money is obscene, and one of the most surprising things was realizing how many of my classmates are receiving significant aid, either from the school, the army, or their parents. It feels pretty isolating at times.

This describes my situation. I'm a first-year at a V5, so couldn't have done better in that regard, but holy fuck the debt it crippling, and it feels so unfair that although most of my friends have loans, they'll all be debt free before me and can choose a different life when that happens.

These personal stories should be collected together and published in something or distributed to UG students around the country. Even if its just a small percentage of the total who are making the decision, it would still be worthwhile.

Wanted to chime in and thank the OP and the posters for their insight. 0L here likely to face a similar situation, and truly appreciate this info. Would be awesome to hear from PI folks who have experience with this (i.e. relying on LRAP, etc).

What about PAYE? Carrying a decent mortgage and being married knocks down loan payments down to around 1000/mo, even with biglaw. I dont see the big deal with that kind of repayment. Can't get kicked out of the program either.

chem wrote:What about PAYE? Carrying a decent mortgage and being married knocks down loan payments down to around 1000/mo, even with biglaw. I dont see the big deal with that kind of repayment. Can't get kicked out of the program either.

Even though you'd be paying $1000 a month for 20 years, your loan balance would still be going up. And then you would owe the IRS about 30% of whatever you had forgiven, and probably end up on a ten year plan with them, still paying $1000 a month. $1000 a month for 30 years.

anyriotgirl wrote:

chem wrote:What about PAYE? Carrying a decent mortgage and being married knocks down loan payments down to around 1000/mo, even with biglaw. I dont see the big deal with that kind of repayment. Can't get kicked out of the program either.

Even though you'd be paying $1000 a month for 20 years, your loan balance would still be going up. And then you would owe the IRS about 30% of whatever you had forgiven, and probably end up on a ten year plan with them, still paying $1000 a month. $1000 a month for 30 years.

This may wind up being off because I hastily did this in excel, but here's a breakdown:

Lets assume 250K loan at 7% compounded monthly (because i don't feel like doing it daily), with a 1000 a month payment. You'll wind up making $240k in payments and have an existing balance of $485,719 at the end of the 20 years. Tax that at 40% ($194,288) and you will wind up having paid $434,288 over the life of the loan, which doesn't seem too bad.

Now consider that you'll be saving ~$2000 a month (for the first 120 payments) in payments over the 10 year plan. Assuming a modest 5% return you're looking at those savings growing to $511,502.

Seems like a pretty good deal to me if you put away the $2000 a month at the start, and definitely not a terrible deal if you can't.

I had a 60k scholly and am 200k in debt (with almost no UG debt). I had to defer, and it is building. Tread softly.

BmoreOrLess wrote:

anyriotgirl wrote:

chem wrote:What about PAYE? Carrying a decent mortgage and being married knocks down loan payments down to around 1000/mo, even with biglaw. I dont see the big deal with that kind of repayment. Can't get kicked out of the program either.

Even though you'd be paying $1000 a month for 20 years, your loan balance would still be going up. And then you would owe the IRS about 30% of whatever you had forgiven, and probably end up on a ten year plan with them, still paying $1000 a month. $1000 a month for 30 years.

This may wind up being off because I hastily did this in excel, but here's a breakdown:

Lets assume 250K loan at 7% compounded monthly (because i don't feel like doing it daily), with a 1000 a month payment. You'll wind up making $240k in payments and have an existing balance of $485,719 at the end of the 20 years. Tax that at 40% ($194,288) and you will wind up having paid $434,288 over the life of the loan, which doesn't seem too bad.

Now consider that you'll be saving ~$2000 a month (for the first 120 payments) in payments over the 10 year plan. Assuming a modest 5% return you're looking at those savings growing to $511,502.

Seems like a pretty good deal to me if you put away the $2000 a month at the start, and definitely not a terrible deal if you can't.

This is basically true, but it also assumes that a lot of things go your way, which isn't necessarily a good assumption. In particular, I mean having the $2000 a month to sock away, the 5% return working out, and holding a job that pays that much for 20 years. Most people only last in big law for a couple of years, so if your salary drops or the market tanks again, or you or a family member develops an expensive medical condition, etc, you could end up very much off track.

bjsesq wrote:I had a 60k scholly and am 200k in debt (with almost no UG debt). I had to defer, and it is building. Tread softly.

Doesn't the 60k look good on paper? It's not bad for a school that costs 40k or so in tuition, but at the t14, where the majority are 50k+ (if not all?), it leaves a hefty pricetag.

anyriotgirl wrote:This is basically true, but it also assumes that a lot of things go your way, which isn't necessarily a good assumption. In particular, I mean having the $2000 a month to sock away, the 5% return working out, and holding a job that pays that much for 20 years. Most people only last in big law for a couple of years, so if your salary drops or the market tanks again, or you or a family member develops an expensive medical condition, etc, you could end up very much off track.

Obviously things can go wrong with any plan, and I'm probably as risk-averse as you (and will likely be turning down law school for a second cycle due to these fears). I do think though that the $1000 a month plan can be a safe plan if* you hit biglaw or land a $70kish job that can afford $12k a year in payments.

*Obviously this is a giant if, and the size of it will vary by school/situation

As with any highly leveraged investment, there is very little room for error. Here, however, the stakes are very high because of opportunity costs and the non-dischargable nature of student loans. Still for many with no other great options, it is the only way to break into any high-paying career, and this can be lucrative for a high percentage over a longer time horizon, say 15 years. That being said, your mortgaging the next 5-8+ years of your life for sure.

Also, a higher percentage of people go at sticker than people seem to be suggesting ITT; its not like it is uncommon at all.

BmoreOrLess wrote:

anyriotgirl wrote:

chem wrote:What about PAYE? Carrying a decent mortgage and being married knocks down loan payments down to around 1000/mo, even with biglaw. I dont see the big deal with that kind of repayment. Can't get kicked out of the program either.

Even though you'd be paying $1000 a month for 20 years, your loan balance would still be going up. And then you would owe the IRS about 30% of whatever you had forgiven, and probably end up on a ten year plan with them, still paying $1000 a month. $1000 a month for 30 years.

This may wind up being off because I hastily did this in excel, but here's a breakdown:

Lets assume 250K loan at 7% compounded monthly (because i don't feel like doing it daily), with a 1000 a month payment. You'll wind up making $240k in payments and have an existing balance of $485,719 at the end of the 20 years. Tax that at 40% ($194,288) and you will wind up having paid $434,288 over the life of the loan, which doesn't seem too bad.

Now consider that you'll be saving ~$2000 a month (for the first 120 payments) in payments over the 10 year plan. Assuming a modest 5% return you're looking at those savings growing to $511,502.

Seems like a pretty good deal to me if you put away the $2000 a month at the start, and definitely not a terrible deal if you can't.

It's actually better than this because the interest doesn't compound as long as you remain in a partial financial hardship. The ending balance would be more like 360k.

Without attempting to derail this thread as it is really insightful, doesn't the math favor income based repayment even if you successfully land a great salary?

jn7 wrote:Without attempting to derail this thread as it is really insightful, doesn't the math favor income based repayment even if you successfully land a great salary?

Only as long as your salary doesn't go up high enough to where PAYE minimum payments will pay off much of the principal.

Law Sauce wrote:As with any highly leveraged investment, there is very little room for error. Here, however, the stakes are very high because of opportunity costs and the non-dischargable nature of student loans. Still for many with no other great options, it is the only way to break into any high-paying career, and this can be lucrative for a high percentage over a longer time horizon, say 15 years. That being said, your mortgaging the next 5-8+ years of your life for sure.

Also, a higher percentage of people go at sticker than people seem to be suggesting ITT; its not like it is uncommon at all.

This is a big problem with this website. The chances of it "paying off"--in other words landing a biglaw job are at BEST 50/50. That is not a high percentage of people. The truth is that the majority of people going to top 14 schools are no longer landing big firm jobs. A plurality of them are; but that's not enough to gamble 250K + in non-dischargeable debt on.