Fordham Law Post-graduate Jobs Forum

[yankeesjn]

Also, if you include federal clerkships as part of the pool of prestigious jobs, the chances go from about 1/4 to 1/3. I definitely would be extremely satisfied with being any of that 33.3%. http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm .

But yes I understand "Special snowflake" etc. Yes I know most people aren't in the top third, that's the nature of what a third is .

Stop looking for some kind of confirmation/affirmation of a decision you want to make. You're not going to get it here.

Not an affirmation, obviously I've seen the way you guys think and write on here so would be very dumb to expect that from any of you haha. I was just adding that piece of evidence to shed some light on the fact that you're not really talking marginal and lottery tickets, you're talking 1 out of 3. I don't believe in being overly positive, but I also don't believe in overt negativity, and I wasn't the one who started bringing up "don't go to Fordham if you want to do big law," etc. I was just trying to ask a simple question but got caught up in some people bringing up new arguments and I'm just trying to share what I know. I'm really not trying to get you to get you to affirm anything, just my argumentative nature I guess.

[Ramius]

Also, if you include federal clerkships as part of the pool of prestigious jobs, the chances go from about 1/4 to 1/3. I definitely would be extremely satisfied with being any of that 33.3%. http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm .

But yes I understand "Special snowflake" etc. Yes I know most people aren't in the top third, that's the nature of what a third is .

Stop looking for some kind of confirmation/affirmation of a decision you want to make. You're not going to get it here.

Not an affirmation, obviously I've seen the way you guys think and write on here so would be very dumb to expect that from any of you haha. I was just adding that piece of evidence to shed some light on the fact that you're not really talking marginal and lottery tickets, you're talking 1 out of 3. I don't believe in being overly positive, but I also don't believe in overt negativity, and I wasn't the one who started bringing up "don't go to Fordham if you want to do big law," etc. I was just trying to ask a simple question but got caught up in some people bringing up new arguments and I'm just trying to share what I know. I'm really not trying to get you to get you to affirm anything, just my argumentative nature I guess.

You don't have to be negative, just realistic. Reality is being median is your most likely scenario. What that really means in a forced curve scenario is you are in a jungle of similarly performing people fighting for scraps. You're not the lion, you're not the gorilla. You're the hyena among 10 other hyenas fighting for what's left over. Will you get a piece of the zebra? Maybe, but you're just as likely to go hungry. Hiring is not as simple as "I'm in the 47th percentile. 50% of the class gets desirable outcomes. Therefore, I am guaranteed a desirable outcome." You can go ahead and be "optimistic" about how well you'll do in law school, but be properly realistic and prepared to be wrong.

[yankeesjn]

Also, if you include federal clerkships as part of the pool of prestigious jobs, the chances go from about 1/4 to 1/3. I definitely would be extremely satisfied with being any of that 33.3%. http://law.fordham.edu/about-fordham/5247.htm .

But yes I understand "Special snowflake" etc. Yes I know most people aren't in the top third, that's the nature of what a third is .

Stop looking for some kind of confirmation/affirmation of a decision you want to make. You're not going to get it here.

Not an affirmation, obviously I've seen the way you guys think and write on here so would be very dumb to expect that from any of you haha. I was just adding that piece of evidence to shed some light on the fact that you're not really talking marginal and lottery tickets, you're talking 1 out of 3. I don't believe in being overly positive, but I also don't believe in overt negativity, and I wasn't the one who started bringing up "don't go to Fordham if you want to do big law," etc. I was just trying to ask a simple question but got caught up in some people bringing up new arguments and I'm just trying to share what I know. I'm really not trying to get you to get you to affirm anything, just my argumentative nature I guess.

You don't have to be negative, just realistic. Reality is being median is your most likely scenario. What that really means in a forced curve scenario is you are in a jungle of similarly performing people fighting for scraps. You're not the lion, you're not the gorilla. You're the hyena among 10 other hyenas fighting for what's left over. Will you get a piece of the zebra? Maybe, but you're just as likely to go hungry. Hiring is not as simple as "I'm in the 47th percentile. 50% of the class gets desirable outcomes. Therefore, I am guaranteed a desirable outcome." You can go ahead and be "optimistic" about how well you'll do in law school, but be properly realistic and prepared to be wrong.

Yes, I completely get what you're saying. That's the reason I made this thread in the first place. Basically trying to figure out what happens when the likely scenario that I don't get big law or a clerkship happens. I wouldn't be ecstatic to be one of the people who goes and gets a 50k job at a small firm, but I also would find it acceptable as long as I felt I was getting good experience. If I was just super optimistic and assumed I am the lion, I would just look at big law, see the 20%, and not even look into these 63% vs 44% stats.

[hephaestus]

Yes, I completely get what you're saying. That's the reason I made this thread in the first place. Basically trying to figure out what happens when the likely scenario that I don't get big law or a clerkship happens. I wouldn't be ecstatic to be one of the people who goes and gets a 50k job at a small firm, but I also would find it acceptable as long as I felt I was getting good experience. If I was just super optimistic and assumed I am the lion, I would just look at big law, see the 20%, and not even look into these 63% vs 44% stats.

1/3 are unemployed or underemployed. 2/3 do not have a "good outcome" through either big law or AIII clerkship. At the same time, Fordham is extremely expensive and gives little money. I do not see how this is a good gamble to be making.

[Ramius]

To answer your real question then: yes, you have a reasonably okay chance at employment out of Fordham. It's not guaranteed by any measure, but deciding what you deem a good enough chance at FT/LT/BPR is entirely on you.

What you need to also consider is the bimodal nature of legal salaries. It's not really 50k now, 100k in 5-7 years. Once you've gone the small firm route, you're not likely to increase your income demonstrably unless you can straight hustle and build up your own book of business. With that in mind, you need to realize how difficult it will be to pay off your student loans if you get stuck in one of those 40-50k jobs. You'll be financially handcuffed for the majority of your adult life potentially. Fordham is incredibly expensive, and considering you think you're a person "not able to get into a T14," you probably won't get any large amount of scholarship money.

Think about your most likely situation coming out of Fordham, assuming you debt-finance your education:
Total debt: $270k minus whatever small scholarship you might receive
Income: $40-50k, unlikely to increase by any great amount
Monthly loan payment: $2000 unless you go IBR/PAYE, which isn't guaranteed by any means for the next 20 years and will have a MASSIVE tax bomb when the time comes

Still feel as positive about your most likely outcome at Fordham?

[yankeesjn]

Yes, I completely get what you're saying. That's the reason I made this thread in the first place. Basically trying to figure out what happens when the likely scenario that I don't get big law or a clerkship happens. I wouldn't be ecstatic to be one of the people who goes and gets a 50k job at a small firm, but I also would find it acceptable as long as I felt I was getting good experience. If I was just super optimistic and assumed I am the lion, I would just look at big law, see the 20%, and not even look into these 63% vs 44% stats.

1/3 are unemployed or underemployed. 2/3 do not have a "good outcome" through either big law or AIII clerkship. At the same time, Fordham is extremely expensive and gives little money. I do not see how this is a good gamble to be making.

Thank you for your thoughts. My basic opinion is whether things are a good gamble or not basically comes down to an opinion. I appreciate the information all of you have given me, and that's really what I was looking for. As far as whether things are a good gamble or not, that's really up to the individual to decide. I could easily make an argument against going, so I'm not saying anyone is wrong to say that. I do think people are wrong when they compare this to the lottery or don't realize it truly is one third that's getting the extremely sought after jobs, or if they mix Fordham in with other similarly ranked, or worse ranked, schools that don't have nearly the same odds.

[yankeesjn]

To answer your real question then: yes, you have a reasonably okay chance at employment out of Fordham. It's not guaranteed by any measure, but deciding what you deem a good enough chance at FT/LT/BPR is entirely on you.

What you need to also consider is the bimodal nature of legal salaries. It's not really 50k now, 100k in 5-7 years. Once you've gone the small firm route, you're not likely to increase your income demonstrably unless you can straight hustle and build up your own book of business. With that in mind, you need to realize how difficult it will be to pay off your student loans if you get stuck in one of those 40-50k jobs. You'll be financially handcuffed for the majority of your adult life potentially. Fordham is incredibly expensive, and considering you think you're a person "not able to get into a T14," you probably won't get any large amount of scholarship money.

Think about your most likely situation coming out of Fordham, assuming you debt-finance your education:
Total debt: $270k minus whatever small scholarship you might receive
Income: $40-50k, unlikely to increase by any great amount
Monthly loan payment: $2000 unless you go IBR/PAYE, which isn't guaranteed by any means for the next 20 years and will have a MASSIVE tax bomb when the time comes

Still feel as positive about your most likely outcome at Fordham?

Duly noted. Can't really argue with that one haha.

[lgleye]

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