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I have about 20k in UG debt and have a social sciences degree. Law school is basically my only option as I cannot even pass high school pre calc. I have a 3.8 from a top 25 school, and am hoping to get a scholarship from a top 30 or so school preferably BU/BC etc.



If i graduate from a school like W&L, BU, BC etc, not T14 but 14-30 how are my chances at midlaw in the region the school is in?


What is the midlaw lifestyle?

partypajamas wrote:I have about 20k in UG debt and have a social sciences degree. Law school is basically my only option as I cannot even pass high school pre calc. I have a 3.8 from a top 25 school, and am hoping to get a scholarship from a top 30 or so school preferably BU/BC etc.



If i graduate from a school like W&L, BU, BC etc, not T14 but 14-30 how are my chances at midlaw in the region the school is in?


What is the midlaw lifestyle?

"Midlaw" is a somewhat made up term used to describe smaller / more regional corporate law firms. The lifestyle is generally thought to be very similar to biglaw, perhaps slightly fewer hours for quite a bit less pay, but it depends on the firm. However, these jobs are every bit as competitive as biglaw to get and there are many fewer of them. Going to a school like BC or BU will not guarantee you one of these jobs.

Law school isn't your only option just because you are bad at math. There are more than three careers.

Look at law school transparency

If you have no interest in practicing law, then every type of law will be **** law.

Less crappy than unemployment.

I had lunch a couple times with a partner in a mid-size firm (around 100 attorneys). He does litigation, so I don't know if any of this applies to corporate as well, and he said that unless he has a trial coming up (read: very rare for a case to go to trial), he rarely has to work any weekends. Since he is in litigation (and a partner) he probably has a lot of control over his own schedule. I don't know if he works later than he might have to during the week to free up his weekends or if the billable requirements are lower such that he can get all his work done easily during the week. He also said that first-years have a lower billing requirement than other attorneys. I think he mentioned 1000 billables in the first year, but I'm not certain. In any case, he obviously does not work Biglaw hours, though I don't know what his exact schedule is like. He's only one attorney at one firm, so take it FWIW.

Really? Midlaw is defined as s***law to you? You will be sorely disappointed after lawl sku.

In my tertiary market area, midlaw is the same thing as biglaw, minus about $80,000. So it's pretty much the same kind of work and same expectations of your time, but for half the compensation. Midlaw exists- it just isn't the "middle ground" that many people think it might be.

partypajamas wrote:Law school is basically my only option as I cannot even pass high school pre calc.

Please explain this to me.

PRgradBYU wrote:

partypajamas wrote:Law school is basically my only option as I cannot even pass high school pre calc.

Please explain this to me.

Yeah this set my troll sensor off too, but then I do know people from high school with this view.

da fuq is midlaw anyway? are some NALP 250 firms considered "midlaw"?

yngblkgifted wrote:da fuq is midlaw anyway? are some NALP 250 firms considered "midlaw"?

I guess it means 50+ attorneys but not NLJ250? Anyway OP, these jobs are more rare than big law because many of these firms do not have summer programs, and those that do have very small classes. You cannot count on mid law.

yngblkgifted wrote:da fuq is midlaw anyway? are some NALP 250 firms considered "midlaw"?

A NY firm that pays $90-$110k starting

guano wrote:

yngblkgifted wrote:da fuq is midlaw anyway? are some NALP 250 firms considered "midlaw"?

A NY firm that pays $90-$110k starting

I guess. But I don't think this is a great definition.

ImNoScar wrote:

guano wrote:

yngblkgifted wrote:da fuq is midlaw anyway? are some NALP 250 firms considered "midlaw"?

A NY firm that pays $90-$110k starting

I guess. But I don't think this is a great definition.

There isn't even a real definition of midlaw

It escapes a concrete definition.

(1) Smaller firms that are by no means solo or small-time in size, usually 40-60 attorneys, mostly partners who bought into the firm with their of-counsel buddies and a few lateral associates and the infrequent law clerk. Usually a few flagship clients that push the firm towards 2-3 practice areas, though the firm will ALWAYS push itself as "full service" or w/e.

(2) The "biglaw" of tertiary markets throughout the Midwest, Great Plains, West, including small regional offices of otherwise "biglaw" firms. E.g., the Twin Cities, Millwaukee, Madison, Des Moines, etc. all have firms that locals consider to be the "big time firms" when they are actually quite small. They usually do all the cases that the state's major corporations and lending institutions have to offer, these firms will also be local counsel for multi-state deals.


There are more views, but it is foolish and uneducated to call it "shitlaw" IMHO. Its not "bleeding edge work," but its not and ID mill or Plaintiffs PI either. . . Also, getting a job from one of these firms is arguably harder than BIGLAW, because they tend to avoid SA programs altogether and hire recent grads or laterals, or they take on 1-2 students a summer and its usually through referrals.

When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Void wrote:When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Not Pittsburgh Bra. Take my city out of the equation.

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Not Pittsburgh Bra. Take my city out of the equation.

I admittedly don't know shit about Pittsburgh, but I'm curious about your objection. Are there not mid-sized commercial firms there that pay like $80k?

Void wrote:

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Not Pittsburgh Bra. Take my city out of the equation.

I admittedly don't know shit about Pittsburgh, but I'm curious about your objection. Are there not mid-sized commercial firms there that pay like $80k?

Biggest firms in Pittsburgh are hardly "mid law" brah.

Void wrote:

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Not Pittsburgh Bra. Take my city out of the equation.

I admittedly don't know shit about Pittsburgh, but I'm curious about your objection. Are there not mid-sized commercial firms there that pay like $80k?

Yeah I worked at one my 1L summer but that was the sixth biggest firm in the city. The top 3 firms pay between 125-145. I would definitely consider that biglaw in my low cost of living city.

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Not Pittsburgh Bra. Take my city out of the equation.

I admittedly don't know shit about Pittsburgh, but I'm curious about your objection. Are there not mid-sized commercial firms there that pay like $80k?

Yeah I worked at one my 1L summer but that was the sixth biggest firm in the city. The top 3 firms pay between 125-145. I would definitely consider that biglaw in my low cost of living city.

My bad. I assumed Pittsburgh was smaller-time stuff. Must be my NYC tri-state-area bias.

Void wrote:
My bad. I assumed Pittsburgh was smaller-time stuff. Must be my NYC tri-state-area bias.

Haha yeah I have to deal with you guys on a daily basis going to school in New York.

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:

Lacepiece23 wrote:

Void wrote:When I think midlaw I think big fish in small pond stuff. Like the biggest firms in Pittsburgh, Albany, or Sacremento. These firms basically do the same kind of work as NYC biglaw but on a much smaller scale, with much smaller clients. It's definitely true that class sizes are tiny by comparison- like 2-3 SAs at best and 1 offer per year. Starting pay is more like $80k-100k. Hours are similar to NYC, but CoL is obviously less

Edit: like Gorki's #2 ^

Not Pittsburgh Bra. Take my city out of the equation.

I admittedly don't know shit about Pittsburgh, but I'm curious about your objection. Are there not mid-sized commercial firms there that pay like $80k?

Yeah I worked at one my 1L summer but that was the sixth biggest firm in the city. The top 3 firms pay between 125-145. I would definitely consider that biglaw in my low cost of living city.

Yah, and that is why the concept of "midlaw" is sorta BS. As I noted, under one view its mid-market firms in NYC, DC, LA, et al. Under another its firms that are smaller but pay damn near the equiv of NYC's 160k in lower COL areas.

Staying on topic: REALLY get a sense of whether the midlaw/small firm you are spending your time at is even interested in hiring an associate after you are done. In my tertiary market there is a common practice of hiring "law clerks" (even at biglaw firm branches in my area) that basically work you 20 hr a week during school, 40 hr a week during summer, and make it clear that in May of 3L you are done. . . The experience and pay is definitely valuable, but strongly consider looking for SA and FT jerbs throughout the process... not like an SA where you just sorta are shoe'd in unless they no offer.