Oil and Gas Law? is the Boom still there? Forum

[whatsEwingdoing]

Pennsylvania in particular has seen an increase in the environmental law field due to the shale and fracking industries. Attending Pitt law in the fall, I'm curious as to whether the boom that we all saw from a few years ago in the environmental field will be dried up by the time I graduate. Would a concentration in environmental law be the best avenue to secure an oil and gas job? Also, anyone have any personal/anecdotal evidence on the oil and gas attorney lifestyle? How truly lucrative are contracting mineral rights of properties and litigating cases over oil and gas issues?

[hobie2515]

I can speak a little about this as I have been working as a Landman out in Midland for the past 2 years. As near as I can tell, the oil and gas industry is not going anywhere anytime soon. That doesn't mean the market wont fluctuate but for the foreseeable future oil and gas will be major players in the energy industry. As far as what attorneys do, in my experience I mostly work with title attorneys. They review the title and determine leasehold or mineral ownership. They point out any necessary curative issues and provide recommendations for curing them.

Litigation is also big but my impression is that this is usually handled by larger firms. As far as representing mineral owners in negotiating leases, this is not as big as you would think. Perhaps for owners who own large amounts of acreage an attorney makes sense, but most mineral owners are unwilling to pay for an attorney to look over lease terms. In fact an attorney is not even necessary to do this kind of work. You can hire a competent Landman and they can do essentially anything the attorney can do, and in some cases much better.

I have not met a single oil and gas attorney that has a background in "environmental" law. This doesn't mean there won't be some demand in the future, but I'm just saying you don't see many. If you're serious about breaking into the energy industry there are two things you should gun for: experience and prestige. Outside of H/Y/S, the University of Texas will likely set you better than any other school. They have an Oil & Gas Journal, major energy companies participate in their OCI and they are well connected and have a history in an energy rich environment. My advice would be to go to UT, utilize their resources and gain some experience. Once you have that, you become very valuable in the energy world.

[whatsEwingdoing]

What if I've already decided on Pitt Law?

[lukertin]

What if I've already decided on Pitt Law?

Don't go?

[hephaestus]

What if I've already decided on Pitt Law?

I have talked to a lot of attorneys in the Pittsburgh market (trying to get back there post LS) and the boom has not been as big as initially thought for large firm work. Its created a lot of title/real estate work but its mostly low ends stuff. It definitely is creating tons of non-legal work that pays well, but its has not resulted in the legal boom initially expected. There were a few huge transactions (like the XTO deal) when land values were crazy high, but its kind of tapered off.

[utlaw2007]

If you wanna sniff anything oil & gas, you have to go to UT, or at the very least, the University of Houston. I was on that Oil, Gas, & Energy Law Journal at UT Law that the above poster references. He is right. I don't think any school outside of those two I just mentioned would give you much of a shot at Oil & Gas. Law Firms of all sizes practice it down here. While Harvard, Yale, and Stanford would give you a great shot to work with the bigger firms that practice in that area, they would give you very little shot at practicing that area with the smaller firms or oil and gas boutiques. Simply because, those boutiques only recruit at UT and won't even know you exist if you go to those other schools. I'm sure you could crack your way into them. But you would definitely have to demonstrate some oil and gas knowledge or experience. They will not hire you solely because you went to Harvard.

That journal is awesome if you want to do this kind of work because it is well connected with all of the major players in the oil and gas industry. Oil and Gas is more about connections than prestige. You have to remember that this is Texas and we are talking about Oil & Gas. It's a good ole boys network if there ever was one. And whatever national prestige Harvard, etc. have is not going to do much for getting you a job in this industry down here.

[mephistopheles]

What if I've already decided on Pitt Law?

[utlaw2007]

I currently live in and am from Houston, by the way. I have lived here all of my life.

[utlaw2007]

Litigating oil & gas issues can be insanely lucrative. I have a potential client whose family owns land that has produced oil for decades. The oil company recently cut a check for a small amount of money for back royalties. The amount doesn't come close to what is likely owed. According to the client, that oil company produced an amount of oil in the tens of thousands just in the last few months.

I don't know how common these disputes are nor do I know all of the potential types of oil & gas disputes there are. But I do know some. And many of them don't involve land owner and oil company. Those disputes are common, but so are other types. Often times, they are between two companies as to how to divide royalties, profits earned from the production of oil on that site. Disputes as to the commencing of drilling, who should be penalized for delays, etc. I don't think you are going to get a good handle on these things unless you go to UT. Even going to Harvard, Yale, etc. is not going to give you a good handle on these things. Remember, these firms want to see if you have some substantive knowledge of all of this. Going to those schools is not going to help much in that area.

[utlaw2007]

And going to Pitt gives you no chance at working oil & gas in Texas. Nobody knows or cares what Pitt is down here. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just telling it like it is. There may be other oil & gas states in which to practice. But no state has oil & gas like Texas, primarily Houston, has oil & gas.

[shock259]

Pitt is a scary choice regardless of what you want to do.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=pitt

[whatsEwingdoing]

Hey Shock, I could give two shit's about the rankings of Pitt. I believe I only asked about Oil and Gas law. If you want to just bash on the school I'm going to then there's no intelligent dialogue being exchanged, defeating the purpose of me asking the question in the first place. So, if you were trying to help, try to help less. On the other hand, thank you everyone for the advice.

[Richie Tenenbaum]

Hey Shock, I could give two shit's about the rankings of Pitt. I believe I only asked about Oil and Gas law. If you want to just bash on the school I'm going to then there's no intelligent dialogue being exchanged, defeating the purpose of me asking the question in the first place. So, if you were trying to help, try to help less. On the other hand, thank you everyone for the advice.

I don't think Shock was insulting Pitt because of its ranking--he was trying to warn you about the poor legal employment numbers for Pitt grads. How well a law school places its grads is a very important thing to consider. Law school is typically a huge investment of money. If you are taking out substantial loans to attend Pitt, you may want to reconsider that decision. I'm not saying this to be insulting; I'm saying this to try and help you.

[whatsEwingdoing]

Well I apologize Shock. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[BeenDidThat]

And going to Pitt gives you no chance at working oil & gas in Texas. Nobody knows or cares what Pitt is down here. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just telling it like it is. There may be other oil & gas states in which to practice. But no state has oil & gas like Texas, primarily Houston, has oil & gas.

OP didn't say anything about oil & gas in Texas. OP said oil & gas law. And OP talked about PA. And going to Pitt.

OP - more directly to your point: environmental law is a tiny field, even in the major O&G states like TX. In a place like PA, it's likely even smaller. As mentioned previously in this thread, the vast majority of legal employment related to O&G development in the U.S. falls into two categories: (1) the transactional side (lease drafting/negotiating/title work); and (2) litigation (royalty disputes, property intrusion disputes, etc.).

That being said, O&G legal stuff is fairly niche. The industry spawns a lot of work that is tangentially related, like eminent domain for pipelines, deals for large batches of leases, acquisitions of exploration companies, etc. I think that you're generally better off finding a practice area you are cut out for (enjoy/have abilities in), and let the tangential stuff from O&G development be part of your work. If you have a burning desire to practice regulatory environmental law and a good background (say: enviro science undergrad), there's no reason not to parlay that into a job. But if you're just thinking this is where the money's at, I'd focus back on more mainstream jobs, some of which will touch on the O&G industry. Feel free to PM if you have Qs.

[dr123]

If you wanna sniff anything oil & gas, you have to go to UT, or at the very least, the University of Houston. I was on that Oil, Gas, & Energy Law Journal at UT Law that the above poster references. He is right. I don't think any school outside of those two I just mentioned would give you much of a shot at Oil & Gas. Law Firms of all sizes practice it down here. While Harvard, Yale, and Stanford would give you a great shot to work with the bigger firms that practice in that area, they would give you very little shot at practicing that area with the smaller firms or oil and gas boutiques. Simply because, those boutiques only recruit at UT and won't even know you exist if you go to those other schools. I'm sure you could crack your way into them. But you would definitely have to demonstrate some oil and gas knowledge or experience. They will not hire you solely because you went to Harvard.

That journal is awesome if you want to do this kind of work because it is well connected with all of the major players in the oil and gas industry. Oil and Gas is more about connections than prestige. You have to remember that this is Texas and we are talking about Oil & Gas. It's a good ole boys network if there ever was one. And whatever national prestige Harvard, etc. have is not going to do much for getting you a job in this industry down here.

Theres a pretty big Oil & Gas market in Western ND/ Eastern MT too. There's way more oil in the Bakken than there is in TX.

[utlaw2007]

If you wanna sniff anything oil & gas, you have to go to UT, or at the very least, the University of Houston. I was on that Oil, Gas, & Energy Law Journal at UT Law that the above poster references. He is right. I don't think any school outside of those two I just mentioned would give you much of a shot at Oil & Gas. Law Firms of all sizes practice it down here. While Harvard, Yale, and Stanford would give you a great shot to work with the bigger firms that practice in that area, they would give you very little shot at practicing that area with the smaller firms or oil and gas boutiques. Simply because, those boutiques only recruit at UT and won't even know you exist if you go to those other schools. I'm sure you could crack your way into them. But you would definitely have to demonstrate some oil and gas knowledge or experience. They will not hire you solely because you went to Harvard.

That journal is awesome if you want to do this kind of work because it is well connected with all of the major players in the oil and gas industry. Oil and Gas is more about connections than prestige. You have to remember that this is Texas and we are talking about Oil & Gas. It's a good ole boys network if there ever was one. And whatever national prestige Harvard, etc. have is not going to do much for getting you a job in this industry down here.

Theres a pretty big Oil & Gas market in Western ND/ Eastern MT too. There's way more oil in the Bakken than there is in TX.

That may be true, but the Oil & Gas industry, where you will get a job paying you a good salary, is biggest in Houston.

Unless you are going to go to that place you mentioned and actually secure oil yourself, what you just stated matters little. I'm quite sure that there aren't even a tenth of the oil & gas legal jobs there as there are in Houston. So while trying to crack a small market is better than nothing. Suggesting that it is more beneficial to crack a small market than a big one is kind of silly.

[utlaw2007]

And going to Pitt gives you no chance at working oil & gas in Texas. Nobody knows or cares what Pitt is down here. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just telling it like it is. There may be other oil & gas states in which to practice. But no state has oil & gas like Texas, primarily Houston, has oil & gas.

OP didn't say anything about oil & gas in Texas. OP said oil & gas law. And OP talked about PA. And going to Pitt.

OP - more directly to your point: environmental law is a tiny field, even in the major O&G states like TX. In a place like PA, it's likely even smaller. As mentioned previously in this thread, the vast majority of legal employment related to O&G development in the U.S. falls into two categories: (1) the transactional side (lease drafting/negotiating/title work); and (2) litigation (royalty disputes, property intrusion disputes, etc.).

That being said, O&G legal stuff is fairly niche. The industry spawns a lot of work that is tangentially related, like eminent domain for pipelines, deals for large batches of leases, acquisitions of exploration companies, etc. I think that you're generally better off finding a practice area you are cut out for (enjoy/have abilities in), and let the tangential stuff from O&G development be part of your work. If you have a burning desire to practice regulatory environmental law and a good background (say: enviro science undergrad), there's no reason not to parlay that into a job. But if you're just thinking this is where the money's at, I'd focus back on more mainstream jobs, some of which will touch on the O&G industry. Feel free to PM if you have Qs.

Very true that OP said nothing about oil & gas in Texas, but seeing that Texas, specifically Houston, is the oil, gas, and energy capitol of the world, definitely of the US, I'd say any mention of oil & gas employment warrants a Texas reference.

Based on your logic, it would be like saying that OP wants to know job prospects concerning movie acting. And a poster explains what job prospects are like in Hollywood, California. Then you mention that OP said nothing about Hollywood, California. That would be a pretty meaningless observation to point out, no?

[BeenDidThat]

And going to Pitt gives you no chance at working oil & gas in Texas. Nobody knows or cares what Pitt is down here. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just telling it like it is. There may be other oil & gas states in which to practice. But no state has oil & gas like Texas, primarily Houston, has oil & gas.

OP didn't say anything about oil & gas in Texas. OP said oil & gas law. And OP talked about PA. And going to Pitt.

OP - more directly to your point: environmental law is a tiny field, even in the major O&G states like TX. In a place like PA, it's likely even smaller. As mentioned previously in this thread, the vast majority of legal employment related to O&G development in the U.S. falls into two categories: (1) the transactional side (lease drafting/negotiating/title work); and (2) litigation (royalty disputes, property intrusion disputes, etc.).

That being said, O&G legal stuff is fairly niche. The industry spawns a lot of work that is tangentially related, like eminent domain for pipelines, deals for large batches of leases, acquisitions of exploration companies, etc. I think that you're generally better off finding a practice area you are cut out for (enjoy/have abilities in), and let the tangential stuff from O&G development be part of your work. If you have a burning desire to practice regulatory environmental law and a good background (say: enviro science undergrad), there's no reason not to parlay that into a job. But if you're just thinking this is where the money's at, I'd focus back on more mainstream jobs, some of which will touch on the O&G industry. Feel free to PM if you have Qs.

Very true that OP said nothing about oil & gas in Texas, but seeing that Texas, specifically Houston, is the oil, gas, and energy capitol of the world, definitely of the US, I'd say any mention of oil & gas employment warrants a Texas reference.

Based on your logic, it would be like saying that OP wants to know job prospects concerning movie acting. And a poster explains what job prospects are like in Hollywood, California. Then you mention that OP said nothing about Hollywood, California. That would be a pretty meaningless observation to point out, no?

That's a highly misleading analogy. No doubt that TX is the center of things energy. Especially corporate work for energy cos. But what's usually referred to as O&G work is done on the ground where production happens. In Texas, yes. But in CA, ND, PA, OH, WV, and other areas of production as well.

And Hollywood:acting is not as Texas:O&G work.

[utlaw2007]

And going to Pitt gives you no chance at working oil & gas in Texas. Nobody knows or cares what Pitt is down here. I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just telling it like it is. There may be other oil & gas states in which to practice. But no state has oil & gas like Texas, primarily Houston, has oil & gas.

OP didn't say anything about oil & gas in Texas. OP said oil & gas law. And OP talked about PA. And going to Pitt.

OP - more directly to your point: environmental law is a tiny field, even in the major O&G states like TX. In a place like PA, it's likely even smaller. As mentioned previously in this thread, the vast majority of legal employment related to O&G development in the U.S. falls into two categories: (1) the transactional side (lease drafting/negotiating/title work); and (2) litigation (royalty disputes, property intrusion disputes, etc.).

That being said, O&G legal stuff is fairly niche. The industry spawns a lot of work that is tangentially related, like eminent domain for pipelines, deals for large batches of leases, acquisitions of exploration companies, etc. I think that you're generally better off finding a practice area you are cut out for (enjoy/have abilities in), and let the tangential stuff from O&G development be part of your work. If you have a burning desire to practice regulatory environmental law and a good background (say: enviro science undergrad), there's no reason not to parlay that into a job. But if you're just thinking this is where the money's at, I'd focus back on more mainstream jobs, some of which will touch on the O&G industry. Feel free to PM if you have Qs.

Very true that OP said nothing about oil & gas in Texas, but seeing that Texas, specifically Houston, is the oil, gas, and energy capitol of the world, definitely of the US, I'd say any mention of oil & gas employment warrants a Texas reference.

Based on your logic, it would be like saying that OP wants to know job prospects concerning movie acting. And a poster explains what job prospects are like in Hollywood, California. Then you mention that OP said nothing about Hollywood, California. That would be a pretty meaningless observation to point out, no?

That's a highly misleading analogy. No doubt that TX is the center of things energy. Especially corporate work for energy cos. But what's usually referred to as O&G work is done on the ground where production happens. In Texas, yes. But in CA, ND, PA, OH, WV, and other areas of production as well.

And Hollywood:acting is not as Texas:O&G work.

Ok. This thread is getting silly. My analogy was not meant to be perfect. You are all law students or prospective law students, correct? Your primary goal should be to get a job. I don't think anyone is in position to be selective about exactly what type of oil & gas work they want to do. OP asked about oil & gas work. Instead of trying to show everyone that you can out do me with a response that nitpicks my answer, which by the way, does OP no good, stick to the topic and more importantly, the goal of the discussion.

I brought up Texas because most oil & gas legal jobs are in Texas. If one didn't reference Texas in a discussion about oil & gas, I'd question the wisdom of that person. Either OP wants a job or doesn't. I do not know all the places where OP could get hired for oil & gas work. But any mention of oil & gas legal work warrants a mention of Texas, period.

To split hairs and say that OP only referenced on the ground oil & gas work as opposed to corporate work is silly. And that kind of thinking will lead to no job, I can assure you that.

If OP wants, he can roll the dice and try his luck by going to Pitt. He will either get an oil & gas legal job coming out of Pitt or he won't. The odds say he won't. So the best thing is to maximize his possible employment opportunities the best way he can. And that would include referencing ALL possible locals of a given area of law. And that would include referencing the best law schools for obtaining that kind of employment. One can hardly be selective about legal employment in this economy, especially when one doesn't have cream of the crop law schools to consider attending. For those living in la la land who think that employment prospects coming out of most law schools are good and it's just a matter of what area of law you want to get into, keep dreaming.

To OP, you can choose to ignore the so called "a$$hole" advice you get saying that Pitt does not lead to good employment outcomes, which in a way answers your question, or you can heed it. But if things don't work out because you ignored statistics that said the probability of things not working out for certain schools is high, you only have yourself to blame.

Everyone else who seems to shamelessly plug for Pitt or oil & gas in other regions of the country, unless you work in the oil & gas industry as a lawyer making big money in those regions, I do not think you are qualified to render any advice that is contradictory to my advice. I'm not an oil & gas lawyer, either. But since we are all ignorant to oil & gas to a certain degree, none of us has the authority to refute any specific oil & gas advice rendered on this board. So please stop refuting mine about Texas. If someone wants to enlighten OP about the oil & gas landscape in other regions, please go right ahead.

[ryoung81]

I'm not a lawyer, but I work in the oil & gas industry and send out quite a bit of work to several firms that do work for me/us. Now, I'm in the Houston market as well. I agree with much of what utlaw stated. There is a good bit of work elsewhere, but most of the energy companies are located here in Houston. It depends on what you want to do. Do you want to travel to these various plays or have an established life somewhere? These plays don't go on forever, and the legal work quickly narrows down to a favored few. They are favored by friendships, relationships, and money -- sometimes that coincides with firms that do a good job -- sometimes it doesn't.

I obviously think if you want to be in oil & gas work you should be in Houston, most 'oil & gas' attorneys in other areas don't primarily practice oil & gas law. There are exceptions to this, but those exceptions are small shops where it's all family most of the time. If you are asking the question then it isn't your family

The OP is gambling on the long term significance of the area in which he is going to school. That is not a given. By going to school there you are locking yourself into that region.

Just a few thoughts...

[Younger Abstention]

Coming from Pitt, focus on getting a job at a firm as the job market is very tight. If that firm then happens to have an oil and gas practice see if you can get in to it if you think that's what you'd like to do. But understand you'll very likely have to be extremely flexible as to the area of the law you -- at least initially -- practice in. This shouldn't be the conversation you should be having right now -- you're very premature as most likely you'll be scrambling for a job at a personal injury firm come graduation.

[utlaw2007]

Coming from Pitt, focus on getting a job at a firm as the job market is very tight. If that firm then happens to have an oil and gas practice see if you can get in to it if you think that's what you'd like to do. But understand you'll very likely have to be extremely flexible as to the area of the law you -- at least initially -- practice in. This shouldn't be the conversation you should be having right now -- you're very premature as most likely you'll be scrambling for a job at a personal injury firm come graduation.

[Talon2DSO]

This kid from Texas is the stereotypical arrogant kid from Texas. He has no idea what he is talking about. This opportunity in gas is a long term 50+ year play as long as the state govt doesn't shut it down. Along the entire supply chain there will be ample opportunities for lawyers to deal with a number of issues. Environmental and regulatory are huge issues to deal with. If I could do it all over again, I would seek a position with the PA DEP and learn the heck out of state regulatory work. If that's not for you, get started working title but learn as Much as you can about midstream and downstream programs. Look into distribution systems and learn about pipeline replacement programs. There is huge value there.

For the Texas guy to shut you out simply because you didn't go to a Texas school is beyond idiotic and very shortsighted.


I went to Pitt and graduated in 2011...more importantly, I've found success in the oil patch here in Marcellus/Utica, Bakken, and, yes, Texas. If you're still at Pitt, please tell me a time and place and I'll gladly meet and help you develop a strategy for oil and gas.


I will give Texas kid credit, Houston and DFW is the center of the oil and gas world however, considering the Marcellus/Utica is producing volumes that double the best volumes of the Barnett, I'd say Pittsburgh is poised to become the next hub for natural gas and natural gas liquids. You can build a solid oil and gas career in the northeast and with a Pitt law degree. Your familiarity with this region can also give you leverage later in your career for those companies doing business up here.

[Talon2DSO]

This kid from Texas is the stereotypical arrogant kid from Texas. He has no idea what he is talking about. This opportunity in gas is a long term 50+ year play as long as the state govt doesn't shut it down. Along the entire supply chain there will be ample opportunities for lawyers to deal with a number of issues. Environmental and regulatory are huge issues to deal with. If I could do it all over again, I would seek a position with the PA DEP and learn the heck out of state regulatory work. If that's not for you, get started working title but learn as Much as you can about midstream and downstream programs. Look into distribution systems and learn about pipeline replacement programs. There is huge value there.

For the Texas guy to shut you out simply because you didn't go to a Texas school is beyond idiotic and very shortsighted. And by Texas I'm referring to the University. NOT the Great State of Texas....Gig Em.


I went to Pitt and graduated in 2011...more importantly, I've found success in the oil patch here in Marcellus/Utica, Bakken, and, yes, Texas. If you're still at Pitt, please tell me a time and place and I'll gladly meet and help you develop a strategy for oil and gas.