Top Law Schools

As the acceptances start rolling in, the questions about where to attend start piling up.

What is the current feel from a student's perspective on employment? Have many of your friends/classmates been able to secure full-time, long term legal positions? Are things getting better/worse in your opinion?

dmgoor01 wrote:What is the current feel from a student's perspective on employment? Have many of your friends/classmates been able to secure full-time, long term legal positions? Are things getting better/worse in your opinion?

More students than I thought have secured employment from there 2L SA internships. As you can imagine, the ones going into firms greater than 100 or so lawyers are mostly top 15% students. A few have standing offers from much smaller firms, ranging from 6-20 attorneys, to return after graduation, although I cannot speak for the pay at those firms. Roughly 3 or 4 have JAG slots. The 3L job hunt will be starting in earnest for most people this semester though so I will have a better answer later.

From a student's perspective, the job market seems to be better than it was for the past two years. That's not saying much though because those years sucked.

So overall, the job market sucks. From what I can glean from family friends at mid-size law firms, it seems that very generally only the Biglaw firms are looking to hire associates before they pass the bar. The rest are waiting until you have bar results in hand before making long-term full time associate offers. From my perspective, this makes sense because it is wholly unrealistic to expect small or even mid size firms to forecast employment needs 10 months out.

My firm is very small (<20) and all their recent hires have been pre-Bar

I was contemplating applying to Pepperdine but I've heard that it tends to be very conservative and religious. I'm still thinking of submitting an app, but I'm concerned about this. From your perspective, is this the case?

I got a very good scholarship here, but I will still end up paying over 100,000 to attend if I choose to go to Pepperdine. My question is, is Pepperdine a worthwhile investment for people around the median of the class (because not everyone will be in the top 10%). Also, are the professors truly student friendly like the school claims and are the students amicable.

maxiguess wrote:My firm is very small (<20) and all their recent hires have been pre-Bar

That's good to hear.

cbarlow1016 wrote:I was contemplating applying to Pepperdine but I've heard that it tends to be very conservative and religious. I'm still thinking of submitting an app, but I'm concerned about this. From your perspective, is this the case?

I believe that the school gets that reputation as a result of its undergraduate campus. The law school is not overly conservative or religious. You will find a wide array of students there from muslims, to atheists, to catholics, to christians, etc. Regarding the conservative nature of the school, a slight majority of the school is conservative I would say, but not enough to really notice unless you wanted to. As a law student, you will not feel alienated because of your religious or political views. For the record, I am atheist and liberal. I have not had any trouble finding people like me at the school. Moreover, having friends who have different beliefs than you will only enrich your education.

That being said, there are a few times where I have noticed religion and the school intermixing, they are: the essay when you apply and orientation is finished with a prayer.

andygreen12 wrote:I got a very good scholarship here, but I will still end up paying over 100,000 to attend if I choose to go to Pepperdine. My question is, is Pepperdine a worthwhile investment for people around the median of the class (because not everyone will be in the top 10%). Also, are the professors truly student friendly like the school claims and are the students amicable.

I'll give the typical law school answer, "it depends." 100K is a lot of money. My personal view/advice would be to not take on 100K in debt before your career even begins. You'll end up paying 140K back over 10 years, which sucks no matter how much money you make. Nobody wants to be 35+ and paying back loans that are not regarding a house, car, or boat. However, I'm pretty risk averse, so my view is highly tainted.

There are a number of reasons why Pepperdine could be a worthwhile investment at the median: (1) if you really want to study law and be a lawyer then it will be worth it; (2) you realize that a few years out of law school your grades won't be the "be all and all" (keep in mind they're important while you're there though); (3) you're okay with not chasing biglaw jobs and looking for the 160K salary which will guarantee that you will suffer a decline in health/happiness and a divorce (you'll find most students at Pepperdine don't care for biglaw - those students go to Loyala); (4) your okay with working in a smaller firm for less $; (5) you want to pursue JAG (Pepp students seem to place well); (6) you see law as a long term investment.

Regarding that last point, a Professor of mine made a comment which resonates with me greatly. She said to remember that, under normal circumstances, we will all live a long time, well into our 80s and 90s hopefully. Being a lawyer should be looked at as being potentially one of your careers, not your one career.

To address the friendliness of Professors, I can say that the website DOES NOT do the Professors' friendliness to students justice. The professors are very accessible and friendly when you're in office hours or need help. It is not uncommon to find professors eating with the students either. You will find yourself constantly being invited to Professors' houses for BBQs, Football Games, Holiday Parties/Dinners, and more. For instance, during my 1L year, several of the professors invited entire sections over for catered BBQs, several also took classes out on "class hikes," as a 2L and 3L, Professors of smaller classes (usually <20 students) will often invite the class over for dinner or sports one or more times per semester. Lastly, the dean and several professors will invite students to their homes for holiday parties during the season.

Can you give an idea of what the different schools in LA are known for among the students? (I saw that you said in your last post that Pepperdine students are less big-law focused than Loyola. Any little things like that.) I've been accepted at some schools in LA, and don't live in the region, so I've been having a hard time getting information on schools that's not on their website or in an information packet.

Thanks

Mr. Jones wrote:

andygreen12 wrote:I got a very good scholarship here, but I will still end up paying over 100,000 to attend if I choose to go to Pepperdine. My question is, is Pepperdine a worthwhile investment for people around the median of the class (because not everyone will be in the top 10%). Also, are the professors truly student friendly like the school claims and are the students amicable.

I'll give the typical law school answer, "it depends." 100K is a lot of money. My personal view/advice would be to not take on 100K in debt before your career even begins. You'll end up paying 140K back over 10 years, which sucks no matter how much money you make. Nobody wants to be 35+ and paying back loans that are not regarding a house, car, or boat. However, I'm pretty risk averse, so my view is highly tainted.

There are a number of reasons why Pepperdine could be a worthwhile investment at the median: (1) if you really want to study law and be a lawyer then it will be worth it; (2) you realize that a few years out of law school your grades won't be the "be all and all" (keep in mind they're important while you're there though); (3) you're okay with not chasing biglaw jobs and looking for the 160K salary which will guarantee that you will suffer a decline in health/happiness and a divorce (you'll find most students at Pepperdine don't care for biglaw - those students go to Loyala); (4) your okay with working in a smaller firm for less $; (5) you want to pursue JAG (Pepp students seem to place well); (6) you see law as a long term investment.

Regarding that last point, a Professor of mine made a comment which resonates with me greatly. She said to remember that, under normal circumstances, we will all live a long time, well into our 80s and 90s hopefully. Being a lawyer should be looked at as being potentially one of your careers, not your one career.

To address the friendliness of Professors, I can say that the website DOES NOT do the Professors' friendliness to students justice. The professors are very accessible and friendly when you're in office hours or need help. It is not uncommon to find professors eating with the students either. You will find yourself constantly being invited to Professors' houses for BBQs, Football Games, Holiday Parties/Dinners, and more. For instance, during my 1L year, several of the professors invited entire sections over for catered BBQs, several also took classes out on "class hikes," as a 2L and 3L, Professors of smaller classes (usually <20 students) will often invite the class over for dinner or sports one or more times per semester. Lastly, the dean and several professors will invite students to their homes for holiday parties during the season.

Thank you so much for the quick response! I will definitely consider it more and you have given me some hope. I am so glad you did this as I was in need of some answers about Pepperdine and you showed up. I wish you all the best in your future and know that you are awesome!

One last question though, how amazing is the campus?

mip1011 wrote:Can you give an idea of what the different schools in LA are known for among the students? (I saw that you said in your last post that Pepperdine students are less big-law focused than Loyola. Any little things like that.) I've been accepted at some schools in LA, and don't live in the region, so I've been having a hard time getting information on schools that's not on their website or in an information packet.

Thanks

Obviously I can speak best about what students are like at Pepperdine. Students at Pepperdine seem to be less focused on seeking Biglaw jobs, whether that is because most won't get biglaw jobs anyways or simply do not care is a different question. I believe it's the latter. It seems to me that most students at Pepperdine are interested in pursuing a better work-life balance than Biglaw traditionally offers. However, I believe that in this economy, I don't think that many students would turn down an offer. There are also a lot of students interested in public interest.

My comparison to other LA schools is limited because my experience with them is limited to working with students from them during internships and having a few friends that attend them. Loyola seems to have a bigger focus student wise on chasing biglaw jobs. It has a huge alumni base, so naturally it has a lot of people in the biglaw scene (just by virtue of numbers). That seems to attract a lot of students interested in Biglaw who either couldn't get into UCLA/USC or went to Loyola for a scholarship. Keep in mind though that Loyola is a big school, with a diverse student body.

Regarding USC/UCLA, they obviously place the best for biglaw. It would be a misnomer to claim that all or even a majority of those students get biglaw there though. It will be pitched that the OCI is done on a lottery system so you have a good chance of getting a biglaw interview; however, keep in mind not all interviewees have the chances going into the interview. Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that those in the bottom half of the class, or bottom 60% of the class, do not get the biglaw jobs. If you have an acceptance to either one of these schools, you should strongly consider it obviously, but weigh it against scholarships to other schools in the area. Look at it this way: If you get into USC or UCLA you probably have a full or more in scholarships to Pepp or Loyola. Tuition is going to put you out 130K alone. Closer to 155K when interest is factored in. So, even though your friends who get biglaw jobs make 145K per year, they're 155K in the hole compared to students who attend Pepp or Loyola on schollys (that's of course not including living costs which I assume are similar for all schools). So the 145K per year, plus the hours, plus the high tax bracket, will not likely pay back the loans quick enough to justify going to USC or UCLA v. a full ride. That's just my opinion though.

andygreen12 wrote:

Mr. Jones wrote:

andygreen12 wrote:I got a very good scholarship here, but I will still end up paying over 100,000 to attend if I choose to go to Pepperdine. My question is, is Pepperdine a worthwhile investment for people around the median of the class (because not everyone will be in the top 10%). Also, are the professors truly student friendly like the school claims and are the students amicable.

I'll give the typical law school answer, "it depends." 100K is a lot of money. My personal view/advice would be to not take on 100K in debt before your career even begins. You'll end up paying 140K back over 10 years, which sucks no matter how much money you make. Nobody wants to be 35+ and paying back loans that are not regarding a house, car, or boat. However, I'm pretty risk averse, so my view is highly tainted.

There are a number of reasons why Pepperdine could be a worthwhile investment at the median: (1) if you really want to study law and be a lawyer then it will be worth it; (2) you realize that a few years out of law school your grades won't be the "be all and all" (keep in mind they're important while you're there though); (3) you're okay with not chasing biglaw jobs and looking for the 160K salary which will guarantee that you will suffer a decline in health/happiness and a divorce (you'll find most students at Pepperdine don't care for biglaw - those students go to Loyala); (4) your okay with working in a smaller firm for less $; (5) you want to pursue JAG (Pepp students seem to place well); (6) you see law as a long term investment.

Regarding that last point, a Professor of mine made a comment which resonates with me greatly. She said to remember that, under normal circumstances, we will all live a long time, well into our 80s and 90s hopefully. Being a lawyer should be looked at as being potentially one of your careers, not your one career.

To address the friendliness of Professors, I can say that the website DOES NOT do the Professors' friendliness to students justice. The professors are very accessible and friendly when you're in office hours or need help. It is not uncommon to find professors eating with the students either. You will find yourself constantly being invited to Professors' houses for BBQs, Football Games, Holiday Parties/Dinners, and more. For instance, during my 1L year, several of the professors invited entire sections over for catered BBQs, several also took classes out on "class hikes," as a 2L and 3L, Professors of smaller classes (usually <20 students) will often invite the class over for dinner or sports one or more times per semester. Lastly, the dean and several professors will invite students to their homes for holiday parties during the season.

Thank you so much for the quick response! I will definitely consider it more and you have given me some hope. I am so glad you did this as I was in need of some answers about Pepperdine and you showed up. I wish you all the best in your future and know that you are awesome!

One last question though, how amazing is the campus?

The Campus's location is amazing. It's across the street from the beach obviously, you have a nice view of the Santa Monica bay, Catalina Island, and Santa Barbara island on a daily basis. The Library overlooks the ocean. The cafeteria and outdoor lunch seating overlook the ocean. Certain classrooms overlook the ocean. Deer are a regular sight on campus. The campus is backed up to the Santa Monica Mountains, which offer excellent hiking, mountain biking, or just nice sights to look at. Most students live in santa monica, you will never find a better drive to school, everyday is a trek up PCH, gives you a chance to check out the surf, look at the dolphins, etc. I will for sure miss Pepperdine's campus. Not to mention, it is right across from Surfrider beach, the premier summertime point break, so you can surf and then go back to school! the interior of the school leaves a little to be desired. Not bad by any means, probably nicer than most other schools from what I understand, but it doesn't match the exterior and location.

I will certainly miss Pepperdine and its location though.

Hey I just was accepted there, with the Dean's Merit Scholarship for $46k/yr (so full tuition) with the stipulation that I end up in the top 1/2.
I know the respondent will most likely be biased, but with all that you know now after a few years at Pepperdine Law, is that significant of a scholarship worth the exchange for a lower ranked school? (I'd assume that since I got that scholarship that I will get in to better ranked schools)

akasabian wrote:Hey I just was accepted there, with the Dean's Merit Scholarship for $46k/yr (so full tuition) with the stipulation that I end up in the top 1/2.
I know the respondent will most likely be biased, but with all that you know now after a few years at Pepperdine Law, is that significant of a scholarship worth the exchange for a lower ranked school? (I'd assume that since I got that scholarship that I will get in to better ranked schools)

That's a hard question to really answer w/out knowing more. If you want to practice outside of Texas or SoCal, then Pepp may not be a good choice for you in the first place. I'll assume for the rest of this answer that you are looking into SoCal.

Yes, you will likely get into better schools, as I did and most others did who have good scholarships. The answer then rests on your debt aversion and practice goals. If you are looking for the Biglaw job and care very little about debt, then Pepp is not a good fit for you. If you want the prestige of a better school and will pay anything for it, then Pepp is not a good fit for you. If you hate the beach, then it's really not a good it.

However, if you think long term about your life and don't care much to practice Biglaw right away then it very well may be a good fit. Assuming you keep the scholarship, you saved yourself somewhere around $1500 per month for the 10 years following law school. That to me made it worth passing up better schools, both on the East and West Coasts. Then again, maybe that UCLA/USC/BU/UCI Diploma on your wall will all be worth it as you pay the equivalent of a small mortgage that you got no house for. That's me being cynical.

Personal opinion: Unless you get a scholly of 20K or more per year with similar stips to USC/UCLA (this is entirely possible given the size of your Pepp scholly), it wouldn't be a contest in my mind. It wasn't a contest in my mind when I made a similar decision. I couldn't be happier as my peers with similar #s at USC and UCLA are busy worrying out loans/repaying them/finding jobs/getting laid off. After the bar, I plan to take a few months off and get in super good shape and travel, while others who made the opposite decision of me will be trying their best to either pay off loans or get them deferred. It all depends on you though. I personally enjoy the freedom I have because I didn't need loans (due to scholarship). Hope this helps.

Mr. Jones wrote:

akasabian wrote:Hey I just was accepted there, with the Dean's Merit Scholarship for $46k/yr (so full tuition) with the stipulation that I end up in the top 1/2.
I know the respondent will most likely be biased, but with all that you know now after a few years at Pepperdine Law, is that significant of a scholarship worth the exchange for a lower ranked school? (I'd assume that since I got that scholarship that I will get in to better ranked schools)

That's a hard question to really answer w/out knowing more. If you want to practice outside of Texas or SoCal, then Pepp may not be a good choice for you in the first place. I'll assume for the rest of this answer that you are looking into SoCal.

Yes, you will likely get into better schools, as I did and most others did who have good scholarships. The answer then rests on your debt aversion and practice goals. If you are looking for the Biglaw job and care very little about debt, then Pepp is not a good fit for you. If you want the prestige of a better school and will pay anything for it, then Pepp is not a good fit for you. If you hate the beach, then it's really not a good it.

However, if you think long term about your life and don't care much to practice Biglaw right away then it very well may be a good fit. Assuming you keep the scholarship, you saved yourself somewhere around $1500 per month for the 10 years following law school. That to me made it worth passing up better schools, both on the East and West Coasts. Then again, maybe that UCLA/USC/BU/UCI Diploma on your wall will all be worth it as you pay the equivalent of a small mortgage that you got no house for. That's me being cynical.

Personal opinion: Unless you get a scholly of 20K or more per year with similar stips to USC/UCLA (this is entirely possible given the size of your Pepp scholly), it wouldn't be a contest in my mind. It wasn't a contest in my mind when I made a similar decision. I couldn't be happier as my peers with similar #s at USC and UCLA are busy worrying out loans/repaying them/finding jobs/getting laid off. After the bar, I plan to take a few months off and get in super good shape and travel, while others who made the opposite decision of me will be trying their best to either pay off loans or get them deferred. It all depends on you though. I personally enjoy the freedom I have because I didn't need loans (due to scholarship). Hope this helps.

Yea that was my general thought, however once I looked at the whole comment about biglaw, I'm more hesitant about Pepp. I know obviously there's always that opportunity for those who succeed and I by no means know that I want (or don't want) to do biglaw, but that's an option I want to try and keep open as well. Hence the dilemma

akasabian wrote:

Mr. Jones wrote:

akasabian wrote:Hey I just was accepted there, with the Dean's Merit Scholarship for $46k/yr (so full tuition) with the stipulation that I end up in the top 1/2.
I know the respondent will most likely be biased, but with all that you know now after a few years at Pepperdine Law, is that significant of a scholarship worth the exchange for a lower ranked school? (I'd assume that since I got that scholarship that I will get in to better ranked schools)

That's a hard question to really answer w/out knowing more. If you want to practice outside of Texas or SoCal, then Pepp may not be a good choice for you in the first place. I'll assume for the rest of this answer that you are looking into SoCal.

Yes, you will likely get into better schools, as I did and most others did who have good scholarships. The answer then rests on your debt aversion and practice goals. If you are looking for the Biglaw job and care very little about debt, then Pepp is not a good fit for you. If you want the prestige of a better school and will pay anything for it, then Pepp is not a good fit for you. If you hate the beach, then it's really not a good it.

However, if you think long term about your life and don't care much to practice Biglaw right away then it very well may be a good fit. Assuming you keep the scholarship, you saved yourself somewhere around $1500 per month for the 10 years following law school. That to me made it worth passing up better schools, both on the East and West Coasts. Then again, maybe that UCLA/USC/BU/UCI Diploma on your wall will all be worth it as you pay the equivalent of a small mortgage that you got no house for. That's me being cynical.

Personal opinion: Unless you get a scholly of 20K or more per year with similar stips to USC/UCLA (this is entirely possible given the size of your Pepp scholly), it wouldn't be a contest in my mind. It wasn't a contest in my mind when I made a similar decision. I couldn't be happier as my peers with similar #s at USC and UCLA are busy worrying out loans/repaying them/finding jobs/getting laid off. After the bar, I plan to take a few months off and get in super good shape and travel, while others who made the opposite decision of me will be trying their best to either pay off loans or get them deferred. It all depends on you though. I personally enjoy the freedom I have because I didn't need loans (due to scholarship). Hope this helps.

Yea that was my general thought, however once I looked at the whole comment about biglaw, I'm more hesitant about Pepp. I know obviously there's always that opportunity for those who succeed and I by no means know that I want (or don't want) to do biglaw, but that's an option I want to try and keep open as well. Hence the dilemma

I understand where you are coming from. Before I went to law school I wanted to Biglaw job and what I thought was the associated lifestyle that came with it. However, now that I'm in my last semester, with no loans and the ability to take some time off post-bar and travel/enjoy myself, I couldn't be happier with my decision. Keep in mind that a strong majority of students will never attain Biglaw, regardless of the school. Even those that do get biglaw often quit in 2 or so years. Be mindful of this dangerous cycle: Go to school and rack up loans to get Biglaw, rack up those loans, must get biglaw job to pay off said loans.

What is the general feeling like about the Palmer Center? Do you know any "fellows" who have graduated and what they have gone on to do? Thanks!

DML13 wrote:What is the general feeling like about the Palmer Center? Do you know any "fellows" who have graduated and what they have gone on to do? Thanks!

I am not really qualified to answer this question. My association with the Palmer Center is minimal. I had Corporations with the director that's about it. The director is a very intelligent and competent woman. If you have the opportunity to work closely with her and be mentored by her, then take it. She is very open and willing to help students with anything, including job searches. I know she has helped me reach out to employers before and has helped me secure internships in the past.

The only "fellows" I really know are graduating this year, so I don't necessarily know what they want to do. It seems that some of them are, and have gone into fields other than the law (CFA's, CPA's, etc.).

Sorry for the lame response.

Thanks for the response! I am considering Pepperdine as my first choice primarily because of the Palmer Center and its focus on entrepreneurship (still haven't been accepted yet though). I want to go into small business development and feel that my J.D. will be a HUGE asset. Also wouldn't mind being a general counsel for a company (Comedy Central is looking for one in Santa Monica). My second choice of school right now is probably UC Irvine (also have not heard back yet) but I am unsure about how well geared the curriculum will be with regards to my interests.

Does Pepperdine allow J.D. students to take classes from other school - like Graziadio Business School?

Also, where do most students live? Looking around, it seems that Calabasas has some good options that may be closer and cheaper than Santa Monica. Any insight? Thanks ahead of time

DML13 wrote:Thanks for the response! I am considering Pepperdine as my first choice primarily because of the Palmer Center and its focus on entrepreneurship (still haven't been accepted yet though). I want to go into small business development and feel that my J.D. will be a HUGE asset. Also wouldn't mind being a general counsel for a company (Comedy Central is looking for one in Santa Monica). My second choice of school right now is probably UC Irvine (also have not heard back yet) but I am unsure about how well geared the curriculum will be with regards to my interests.

Does Pepperdine allow J.D. students to take classes from other school - like Graziadio Business School?

Also, where do most students live? Looking around, it seems that Calabasas has some good options that may be closer and cheaper than Santa Monica. Any insight? Thanks ahead of time

Re your interest in small business, the Palmer center is a good fit for that I think, a lot o students are heavily involved in the 'micro-finance' program.

Yes, you can take classes at the Grazadio school. Not many though unless you're pursuing the JD/MBA, I am not entirely sure what the limit on the number of units is that can be taken there. There are also a good amount of business-like classes in the JD school, a sample of them would be: Business Planning, Entrepreneurship, Corporate Taxation, Mergers & Acquisitions, High Tech Start Up Finance, etc. My advice is to get into contact w/ the Palmer center directly though, they will have much better information.

Re where students live, here is the breakdown. During the first year, a majority of the students live in either Calabasas/on campus. The second and third year dramatically shift to the Santa Monica/Brentwood areas. A majority of the social activities occur in Santa Monica because that's where most students live. Commute is about 30-40 min regardless of being in Calabasas or Santa Monica. The prices will be fairly similar. Most people move to the SM area though once they meet friends during their first year. If you can find some people to room with, I would place my vote on SM. Coming from Calabasas has its drawbacks: the canyons can be hell to drive through with construction traffic and the social activities are generally not nearby. However, there is better hiking.

Keep in mind that living in Los Angeles will be more expensive than Orange County. I personally like Orange County better. There are randomly a few students who commute from OC to Pepperdine, they just schedule their classes twice per week. This, however, is not possible during your first year.

Moved to appropriate forum.

Doe the graduates earn much money?

contrapositive1 wrote:Doe the graduates earn much money?

Some do, some don't. I don't exactly know how to answer to be honest. I guess I don't have a ton of data to back anything I say up on this point. But it seems that people do okay after getting the bar results in hand.

What would you say Pepperdine's reputation is nationally? I'm wondering more specifically about its reputation in the South because that's where I'm from, and I'm wondering how easy it would be to return to this region after graduating.