Top Law Schools

Hey guys. I thought I would pop in and take questions for a bit. I am feeling nostalgic as I am coming up on my one year anniversary of being accepted to SLS and I relied pretty heavily on TLS during my cycle. If there are any takers, I am happy to take some questions for a little while. Feel free to PM with more after I have gone silent.

For context, here is my LSN profile: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/121212

Why did you choose Stanford over Harvard? It appears that you withdrew from Columbia as well as many other super elite schools before they offered $$$. Is that the case or did you just not update the $$$ information on LSN? Or the schools were stingy and expected you to go at full freight?

bizzybone1313 wrote:Why did you choose Stanford over Harvard? It appears that you withdrew from Columbia as well as many other super elite schools before they offered $$$. Is that the case or did you just not update the $$$ information on LSN? Or the schools were stingy and expected you to go at full freight?

I withdrew from Columbia and others before receiving scholarship information. Part of that was my laziness in not filling out the additional required paperwork (for instance, I have no idea what Harvard’s fin aid package would’ve consisted of) and the other part was my certainty that I would not attend those schools. After visiting Chicago, Columbia, NYU, and Penn in January, I knew that I preferred Stanford and that even a full ride (which would be unlikely at Chicago and Columbia because my lsat anyway) would not change my mind about that. I had little incentive to entertain these offers further.

Not going to Harvard was a very difficult decision. There are a few reasons that I choose Stanford: (1) the fact that I got into S in December and H in June, (2) my honest belief that the opportunities afforded to S & H graduates by virtue of attending their respective schools are equal, and even if H does provide an advantage (3) knowing that I would love S so much more than H, and (4) an honest belief that S is the best law school that ever existed or will ever exist, ever. The bottom line, though, is there is nothing wrong with Harvard and I know I would be happy there but Stanford is just an amazing place.

It was made easier by the fact that I was put on hold for so long. I got very comfortable with my decision to go to Stanford and by the time I was admitted to Harvard the lore of going there had all but dissipated entirely. This has a lot less to do ith the school and much more to do with the way my cycle played out.

Obviously, HLS is an AMAZING place to study law. Going to Harvard provides unbelievable opportunities and access, but I honestly felt that anything Harvard could offer in terms of personal and professional career opportunities I could get from Stanford. I’ll readily admit that Harvard has a more established reputation internationally, but I don’t think that fact necessarily translates into Harvard kids being able to get places Stanford kids can’t. For instance, I made a contact through the international law career counseling office in the Levin Center and as a result I am going to do development work in Sierra Leone over the winter break.
In terms of opportunities domestically, and legal jobs particularly, I don’t think Harvard provides that much more of an edge, if any at all. Stanford students seem to be pretty highly coveted everywhere (even NY and DC!), especially in secondary markets.

Operating under the assumption that I would be able to do whatever I wanted whether I went to H or S, I based my decision on quality of life. Coming from a very arge public uni, I enjoy the small class sizes at S. Our sections have 30 people, H’s has 80. Our largest classes have 60 people, we have classes with other sections so we get to know the other students in our class. H does not have that advantage. It really is an advantage too because as the quarter goes on you have less time for social activities so going to class constitutes most of your social interaction. The housing here is amazing. I live in Munger, which is worth looking up. The weather is amazing. The bay area and nor cal in general is a great place to live especially for the outdoorsy. I am completely in love with the area. My classmates are all so interesting and supportive. It is a collaborative community. There is a spirit on innovation on the Stanford campus that is very much alive in the law school. There really is a feeling here that you can take this degree and do absolutely anything. The law school faculty is very accessible (one prof of mine routinely holds office hours from 4-7 but ends up staying until 9-10pm to talk to students, another prof had our section to her home for dinner…these things don’t and logistically can’t happen at larger schools). The law school admin is beyond supportive. It is a happy place.

SLS 2L here, I'll also answer what I can.

1212 wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:Why did you choose Stanford over Harvard? It appears that you withdrew from Columbia as well as many other super elite schools before they offered $$$. Is that the case or did you just not update the $$$ information on LSN? Or the schools were stingy and expected you to go at full freight?

I withdrew from Columbia and others before receiving scholarship information. Part of that was my laziness in not filling out the additional required paperwork (for instance, I have no idea what Harvard’s fin aid package would’ve consisted of) and the other part was my certainty that I would not attend those schools. After visiting Chicago, Columbia, NYU, and Penn in January, I knew that I preferred Stanford and that even a full ride (which would be unlikely at Chicago and Columbia because my lsat anyway) would not change my mind about that. I had little incentive to entertain these offers further.

Not going to Harvard was a very difficult decision. There are a few reasons that I choose Stanford: (1) the fact that I got into S in December and H in June, (2) my honest belief that the opportunities afforded to S & H graduates by virtue of attending their respective schools are equal, and even if H does provide an advantage (3) knowing that I would love S so much more than H, and (4) an honest belief that S is the best law school that ever existed or will ever exist, ever. The bottom line, though, is there is nothing wrong with Harvard and I know I would be happy there but Stanford is just an amazing place.

It was made easier by the fact that I was put on hold for so long. I got very comfortable with my decision to go to Stanford and by the time I was admitted to Harvard the lore of going there had all but dissipated entirely. This has a lot less to do ith the school and much more to do with the way my cycle played out.

Obviously, HLS is an AMAZING place to study law. Going to Harvard provides unbelievable opportunities and access, but I honestly felt that anything Harvard could offer in terms of personal and professional career opportunities I could get from Stanford. I’ll readily admit that Harvard has a more established reputation internationally, but I don’t think that fact necessarily translates into Harvard kids being able to get places Stanford kids can’t. For instance, I made a contact through the international law career counseling office in the Levin Center and as a result I am going to do development work in Sierra Leone over the winter break.
In terms of opportunities domestically, and legal jobs particularly, I don’t think Harvard provides that much more of an edge, if any at all. Stanford students seem to be pretty highly coveted everywhere (even NY and DC!), especially in secondary markets.

Operating under the assumption that I would be able to do whatever I wanted whether I went to H or S, I based my decision on quality of life. Coming from a very arge public uni, I enjoy the small class sizes at S. Our sections have 30 people, H’s has 80. Our largest classes have 60 people, we have classes with other sections so we get to know the other students in our class. H does not have that advantage. It really is an advantage too because as the quarter goes on you have less time for social activities so going to class constitutes most of your social interaction. The housing here is amazing. I live in Munger, which is worth looking up. The weather is amazing. The bay area and nor cal in general is a great place to live especially for the outdoorsy. I am completely in love with the area. My classmates are all so interesting and supportive. It is a collaborative community. There is a spirit on innovation on the Stanford campus that is very much alive in the law school. There really is a feeling here that you can take this degree and do absolutely anything. The law school faculty is very accessible (one prof of mine routinely holds office hours from 4-7 but ends up staying until 9-10pm to talk to students, another prof had our section to her home for dinner…these things don’t and logistically can’t happen at larger schools). The law school admin is beyond supportive. It is a happy place.

Good choice. I'd way rather be in CA than in MA, and actually the employment stats show Stanford as superior at this point in any case. That said, the Harvard name is #1 in the world, but obviously Stanford is known as one of the best schools in the world as well.

Why do you think Stanford hasn't produced hardly any major politicians like Yale and Harvard? Is that something not generally encouraged at Stanford? Not trying to be a jerk by asking this question. I am just really interested in a political career. Do you really get to pretty much choose any job because of the Stanford name?

bizzybone1313 wrote:Why do you think Stanford hasn't produced hardly any major politicians like Yale and Harvard? Is that something not generally encouraged at Stanford? Not trying to be a jerk by asking this question. I am just really interested in a political career. Do you really get to pretty much choose any job because of the Stanford name?

There are plenty of students here that are interested in political careers. One reason you don’t see a lot of SLS grads in office is the simple fact that there aren’t a lot of SLS graduates. Only ~180 graduate each year compared to ~500 HLS graduates. HLS is a larger network, so it makes sense to want to be part of it if you are shooting for elected positions.

I also think there is some self-selection at work here. To decide to go to Stanford instead of Harvard is to forgo a certain (I think small, but hey) degree of status among the general population. I think a lot of times the type of person drawn to life in public office is more inclined to highly value the sort of branding Harvard provides. There’s nothing wrong with that, I think it’s a valid reason to go to HLS (if it were me, I’d go for HBS – even larger network, shorter program, less academically rigorous, more fun, and probably a more useful skillset).

If you wanted the Harvard name and still attend SLS, perhaps you could consider the Stanford/Harvard joint degree program. It is four years and you spend three at SLS and one at HKS to get a Masters in Public Policy/Admin. Just a thought. One of my friends and SLS alum who is interested in public office went this route and he seems to have really enjoyed it.

What is the biggest weakness that Stanford has as a law school?

Can you speak on your experience on being a black female on campus? SLS is my dream school and though it does not have as strong or extensive a BLSA as Harvard, I always felt it was the best place for me.

Any suggestions on how to approach the application process? Should I write a "Why SLS" statement alongside a diversity statement?

bizzybone1313 wrote:What is the biggest weakness that Stanford has as a law school?

For me, the biggest drawback of SLS is the cost. I will be in an unspeakable amount of debt upon graduation and that reality blows. I looked at my bill in October and realized that I actual owed somebody $22,000. Lol. It’s gross. Also, Palo Alto is the legit suburbs so it can be a difficult transition for anyone involved in the social scene in large cities like New York and Chicago. Let’s see…also the Stanford Duck syndrome is pretty pervasive, but I really don’t find it too bothersome.

I haven’t felt myself wanting anything that the law school didn’t provide. There is a lot of flexibility after the first quarter to take a variety of classes, there are great professors and high caliber classmates, housing is nice, the atmosphere is pleasant. The law school is doing a lot of cool international stuff and cutting edge legal work here at home. There are lots of opportunities to get involved in pro bono work during first quarter as a 1L. My classmates have done things ranging from helping low income people with tenant/landlord problems to immigration work, and helping formerly incarcerated women learn entrepreneurial skills to start and run their own businesses. There are also little things that are awesome like free printing which I’ve come to especially appreciate during exam season for my outlines and the fact that we don’t use exam software.

Overall I would say the cost is the worst part of it all.

BlaqBella wrote:Can you speak on your experience on being a black female on campus? SLS is my dream school and though it does not have as strong or extensive a BLSA as Harvard, I always felt it was the best place for me.

Any suggestions on how to approach the application process? Should I write a "Why SLS" statement alongside a diversity statement?

While its true that our BLSA is smaller than Harvard’s, we have a larger percentage of minorities so the general law school environment is definitely diverse even though we may have a smaller number of minorities. One fun fact: While Harvard had the largest number of kids in the SEO program this past summer, we had the highest representation by percentage. I think that is another signal that this degree can get you in the door just as fast as H because the school you go to is an important factor in admission to SEO. Anywho, it is a small group, but we are pretty close (especially us 1Ls). There are more black women than black men and we stick to each other like glue. I absolutely love those gals. It’s been an extremely supportive transition. It is worth mentioning that I am from Texas and went to an almost all white public university (50k people, but ~3-4% black) so I am very used to being the only black or mixed girl around. I think even the people who went to more diverse undergrads feel comfortable here. I also think living in a more liberal place relaxes the sometimes harsh color lines that exist in the south so that has been fantastic.

I am a big advocate of writing a Why Stanford if you actually have something valuable to say. If it is just going to be an essay about all the cool things Stanford has to offer based on some research you did online, I don’t think it will be that useful. However, if you have an interest in helping establish the rule of law in emerging democracies in the middle east and would like the opportunity to work under Eric Jensen who is currently the only guy doing that kind of work in the country (and your resume corroborates this interest) then that is definitely worth writing about. See what I mean? I am also a proponent of the diversity statement. Not just for minorities either, everyone has a story to tell.

bizzybone1313 wrote:What is the biggest weakness that Stanford has as a law school?

That it's still law school. Less so than almost all of its peers, but you can't take the law school out of SLS.

My other answer would be moving up in the USNEWS rankings from #3 to #2.

hung jury wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:What is the biggest weakness that Stanford has as a law school?

That it's still law school. Less so than almost all of its peers, but you can't take the law school out of SLS.

My other answer would be moving up in the USNEWS rankings from #3 to #2.

Your last sentence is real interesting. Why would SLS moving up to rank #2 be a bad thing? Like it or not, everyone goes by rankings. A lot of people might not agree with the order of the schools, but it is what it is. If Stanford eventually is widely perceived to be more presitigious than Harvard in the next few decades, wouldn't that be a good thing?

bizzybone1313 wrote:

hung jury wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:What is the biggest weakness that Stanford has as a law school?

That it's still law school. Less so than almost all of its peers, but you can't take the law school out of SLS.

My other answer would be moving up in the USNEWS rankings from #3 to #2.

Like it or not, everyone goes by rankings.

No, they don't. I didn't and plenty of my friends and colleagues didn't. I went by things like cost, employment prospects, and where I'd most enjoy the classes/faculty, other students, and surrounding environment.

My real point is that Stanford does things its own way. I can assure you that if our administration was as concerned about USNEWS rankings as many OLs appear to be we wouldn't have a 170 LSAT median. And I hope it doesn't change its policies in that regard. I don't think it will, but you never know.

What makes Stanford better than Columbia?

One of the funny things about the USNews rankings is that they manipulated the formula to make sure the top schools always come out on top. Morse et al. knew that if they didn't have the top schools always come out on top the rankings would never be taken seriously.

That's the answer to your question. A more crass but just as true answer is look at our endowment as compared to Columbia's endowment (on a per student basis).

But I shouldn't have mentioned the rankings and I'll refrain from now on as I think it is only serving to muck up this questions thread.

hung jury wrote:One of the funny things about the USNews rankings is that they manipulated the formula to make sure the top schools always come out on top. Morse et al. knew that if they didn't have the top schools always come out on top the rankings would never be taken seriously.

That's the answer to your question. A more crass but just as true answer is look at our endowment as compared to Columbia's endowment (on a per student basis).

I really appreciate you answering this question, because I have never really known why Stanford is ranked ahead of Columbia. A lot of the other rankings among the T-14 make sense.

Do you think your Stanford degree is equally or more portable than one from Harvard and Yale? Do you think you could basically pick any state without ties and end up working there if you really wanted to? Say, for example, you just woke up one day and said you wanted to live and work in South Dakota. Would Stanford get you there?

bizzybone1313 wrote:

hung jury wrote:One of the funny things about the USNews rankings is that they manipulated the formula to make sure the top schools always come out on top. Morse et al. knew that if they didn't have the top schools always come out on top the rankings would never be taken seriously.

That's the answer to your question. A more crass but just as true answer is look at our endowment as compared to Columbia's endowment (on a per student basis).

I really appreciate you answering this question, because I have never really known why Stanford is ranked ahead of Columbia. A lot of the other rankings among the T-14 make sense.

Do you think your Stanford degree is equally or more portable than one from Harvard and Yale? Do you think you could basically pick any state without ties and end up working there if you really wanted to? Say, for example, you just woke up one day and said you wanted to live and work in South Dakota. Would Stanford get you there?

I don't think I can answer the question in that form. I think employers look at HYS as peer schools, but that each of the schools has particular strengths and personalities such that you might have some alumni or whatever advantage you can draw on by being at school X or Y for a particular niche. I do think all three schools can carry you to the major markets if that is what you want, though I also don't think there are any guarantees in this market.

The South Dakota hypothetical is hard to answer because South Dakota hiring is pretty different than anything I've encountered. I have no idea how they'd deal with HYS imports with no ties.

hung jury wrote:

bizzybone1313 wrote:

hung jury wrote:One of the funny things about the USNews rankings is that they manipulated the formula to make sure the top schools always come out on top. Morse et al. knew that if they didn't have the top schools always come out on top the rankings would never be taken seriously.

That's the answer to your question. A more crass but just as true answer is look at our endowment as compared to Columbia's endowment (on a per student basis).

I really appreciate you answering this question, because I have never really known why Stanford is ranked ahead of Columbia. A lot of the other rankings among the T-14 make sense.

Do you think your Stanford degree is equally or more portable than one from Harvard and Yale? Do you think you could basically pick any state without ties and end up working there if you really wanted to? Say, for example, you just woke up one day and said you wanted to live and work in South Dakota. Would Stanford get you there?

I don't think I can answer the question in that form. I think employers look at HYS as peer schools, but that each of the schools has particular strengths and personalities such that you might have some alumni or whatever advantage you can draw on by being at school X or Y for a particular niche. I do think all three schools can carry out to the major markets, though I don't think there are any guarantees in this market.

The South Dakota hypothetical is hard to answer because South Dakota hiring is pretty different than anything I've encountered. I have no idea how they'd deal with HYS imports with no ties.

Ok, maybe the South Dakota hypo is a bad one. Outside of the major markets of NYC, LA and Chicago, could you easily end up in a secondary market like Miami, Denver or Atlanta?

?

I asked this in another thread but no one answered so I'll try here

How do the 1L electives work? Is there a limited set of choices, or are you free to try any of the 2L/3L electives?

Thanks!

did you try to negotiate your financial aid package? what was your strategy, and was it successful?

Yukos wrote:I asked this in another thread but no one answered so I'll try here

How do the 1L electives work? Is there a limited set of choices, or are you free to try any of the 2L/3L electives?

Thanks!

The 1L elective choice is limited. There are still good options among them.

Trustbuster wrote:

Yukos wrote:I asked this in another thread but no one answered so I'll try here

How do the 1L electives work? Is there a limited set of choices, or are you free to try any of the 2L/3L electives?

Thanks!

The 1L elective choice is limited. There are still good options among them.

Do you remember what a couple of the classes are? If not it's cool, not like this matters in choosing but I'm curious what my 1L schedule would look like

Thanks!

Yukos wrote:

Trustbuster wrote:

Yukos wrote:I asked this in another thread but no one answered so I'll try here

How do the 1L electives work? Is there a limited set of choices, or are you free to try any of the 2L/3L electives?

Thanks!

The 1L elective choice is limited. There are still good options among them.

Do you remember what a couple of the classes are? If not it's cool, not like this matters in choosing but I'm curious what my 1L schedule would look like

Thanks!

The winter quarter electives open to 1Ls are:
Antitrust; Civil Procedure II; Comparative Law; Deals; Employment Discrimination; Energy Law; European Union Law; Evidence; Health Care Regulation, Finance and Policy; Immigration Law; International Conflict Resolution; Law & Biosciences Workshop; Law & Culture in American Film; Law & Economics Seminar II; Legal Ethics; Legal History Workshop; Myth, Law and Practice; Natural Resource Law & Policy Workshop; Negotiation; Payment Systems; Protection of Personality; Quantitative Methods: Finance; Religion and the First Amendment; Spanish for Lawyers; Sports Law; Terrorism and the Courts; Toxic Harms; White Collar Crime; Workshop on International Security.

I believe all spring quarter electives are open to 1Ls.