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Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:04 pm
by scifiguy
I've read in a few comments here and there that often the top of the class students in law school will cluster together.
Does it go further than that, however, where students who may be in the bottom of a class become treated as pariahs?
It really seems shallow to me. And I know it's probably very situationally and indvidually dependent, but just curious if there's a kind of noticeable and commonplace culture of that in law schools in gneral.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:05 pm
by bk1
Or you could just not discuss grades with your classmates.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:09 pm
by nygrrrl
bk187 wrote:Or you could just not discuss grades with your classmates.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:09 pm
by dingbat
scifiguy wrote:I've read in a few comments here and there that often the top of the class students in law school will cluster together.
Does it go further than that, however, where students who may be in the bottom of a class become treated as pariahs?
It really seems shallow to me. And know it's probably very situationally and indvidually dependent, but just curious if there's a kind of noticeable and commonplace culture of that in law schools in gneral.
Might be a matter of correlation. I've noticed that there are a bunch of clusters that formed naturally during the first semester. There's a cluster of gunners, a cluster of slackers, a cluster of intellectuals, a cluster of IDGAF, etc. It seems to be based on personality, but I'm curious to see how that converts to grades.
I also suspect that if someone does really badly, they'll try to switch study partners/groups, whereas people who do really well keep on keeping on, thereby increasing the stratification
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:10 pm
by scifiguy
bk187 wrote:Or you could just not discuss grades with your classmates.
That actually was something else I was curoius about.
How commonplace is it to talk or not talk about grades in law school? And would people also know by default bsed on one's summer employment?
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:14 pm
by dingbat
scifiguy wrote:bk187 wrote:Or you could just not discuss grades with your classmates.
That actually was something else I was curoius about.
How commonplace is it to talk or not talk about grades in law school? And would people also know by default bsed on one's summer employment?
Some people are really curious. I prefer not to discuss grades and when asked how I did would just respond "fine" or "better than expected" or something like that.
After yesterday's exam, some people were eager to discuss everything about it, some didn't want to hear a thing, and others just quickly compared a few key items (I was in the latter set)
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:14 pm
by bk1
scifiguy wrote:That actually was something else I was curoius about.
How commonplace is it to talk or not talk about grades in law school? And would people also know by default bsed on one's summer employment?
At NU? Pretty rare. Only 2 people have ever given me specifics and 2 others I can probably make a decent guess. Other than that I have no fucking clue how my friends did.
You can't know based on summer employment. You might be able to guess but you can't be sure unless it is within a small group of firms that are super grades-whorish.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:46 pm
by OneMoreLawHopeful
bk187 wrote:At NU? Pretty rare. Only 2 people have ever given me specifics and 2 others I can probably make a decent guess. Other than that I have no fucking clue how my friends did.
You can't know based on summer employment. You might be able to guess but you can't be sure unless it is within a small group of firms that are super grades-whorish.
For the sake of providing a different experience, outside of the T14 (I'm at UC Hastings), you're going to be able to tell class ranks (to a certain degree anyway) based upon summer jobs and whether or not people made LR.
Of course, there will always be outliers, people who are at median (or even below it) but scored biglaw through connections/hustling/hard IP background, so you never know with 100% certainty.
That said, all of those indicators make it easy to determine the people who are in the top, but determining people who are in the bottom is much harder. Most people have a few close friends that they share grades with (because you need to tell SOMEONE), but it's not done regularly or casually. As a result, the lower ranked students definitely aren't treated as pariahs.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:49 pm
by dirtrida2
nygrrrl wrote:bk187 wrote:Or you could just not discuss grades with your classmates.
But then when/if OP gets good grades and is pushed into the top of his class, I bet he would do that same as those he is describing
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:22 pm
by bk1
OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:For the sake of providing a different experience, outside of the T14 (I'm at UC Hastings), you're going to be able to tell class ranks (to a certain degree anyway) based upon summer jobs and whether or not people made LR.
But will you know what people are doing for the summer? Outside of my closest friends who volunteered information, I don't know what most of my classmates will be doing next summer.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:33 pm
by dextermorgan
People who discuss their grades with classmates should be treated as pariahs.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:34 pm
by dingbat
dextermorgan wrote:People who discuss their grades with classmates should be treated as pariahs.
I love psyching people out between exams
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:48 pm
by OneMoreLawHopeful
bk187 wrote:OneMoreLawHopeful wrote:For the sake of providing a different experience, outside of the T14 (I'm at UC Hastings), you're going to be able to tell class ranks (to a certain degree anyway) based upon summer jobs and whether or not people made LR.
But will you know what people are doing for the summer? Outside of my closest friends who volunteered information, I don't know what most of my classmates will be doing next summer.
Law review is posted publicly, and grades are a major component of getting onto law review, so that's public knowledge. There's also a public posting of the names of everyone who ever got an award for the top grade in a class they took. Both of these are rough estimators (it's possible someone got a top grade and then failed everything else, likewise, people with more median grades might have had stellar write-ons), but they still become known.
Summer jobs work in two ways:
First, just by attending OCI you can almost immediately tell how people did based upon their number of interviews. This is NOT because people run around telling everyone their exact number, but because you begin seeing the same names over and over again on interview schedules, and the schedules are made semi-public so that people can swap times and fill empty slots. (EDIT: just for reference, interviews at Hastings are 75% firm selected, 25% random, so there can be HUGE disparities between the number of interviews people get, like 33 interviews for person A and 2 interviews for person B, and yes those were real numbers from this cycle)
Second, you are absolutely correct, almost no one openly discusses what they are doing their 2L summer during 2L. However, by the start of 3L most people know what their classmates did last summer. So even though I don't know what most of my classmates are doing right now (as a 2L), my 3L friends basically all know how their classmates are doing.
But again, all of this basically helps you to figure out who is at/close to the top, there's no way to know who is at the bottom, and so they definitely don't get treated poorly.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:50 pm
by bk1
Makes sense.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:39 am
by nebula666
"I really liked that guy until I found out he didn't do great last semester, now I have no desire to be friends" - No one ever
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:48 am
by dood
nebula666 wrote:"I really liked that guy until I found out he didn't do great last semester, now I have no desire to be friends" - No one ever
hahaha
yeah but plenty of people have said to me "that guys an idiot, dont invite him to study with us"
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:04 am
by kwais
just to give a slightly different answer. At my school, I would say a good amount of people know each other's grades. No one has made social decisions based on it. Most people are happy for the people who did well and have some sympathy for those who did poorly. As much as I agree that not discussing grades is a good default rule, some people take it too far. Being able to maturely handle the information is, IMO, better than the obsessive secrecy that is often advised. But obviously, that will not always be the result.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:04 pm
by nmcdgt
Interesting to me about the people at schools were knowing other people's grades/jobs is commonplace. At Emory, everything is pretty secretive. Other than few close friends, I don't really know anybody's grades other than a handful of people where you have a general idea (i.e. people who got tons of interviews at OCI and are near the top of the class, and a few who were near the bottom). Same with jobs. I can probably count on one hand the number of people where I can tell you exactly where they will be working this summer. Other people I've talked to in my class have had the same experience too. Law Review isn't a huge help either for figuring out where people are rank-wise, since only 14/40 spots were grade-on. I wonder what it is about certain schools that makes it this way.
On-topic: I haven't noticed anyone being treated better or worse because of being at the bottom of the class. I know a few people who didn't do so well first-year, and they are pretty much treated exactly the same as they were before anyone had grades. It's pretty much just about personality.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:19 pm
by stillwater
Such a TLS totally neurotic thread topic.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:35 pm
by Wile E.
I have a general idea where everybody in my class ranks. And I know each of the top 10 people. Law school is a rumor mill.
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:51 pm
by Ludo!
I know who's at the top of my class because of law review/OCI but I have no idea how anybody did outside of that.
Also @thisisdingbat, I thought you were a 1l?
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:57 pm
by warandpeace
what is the point of this question
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:04 am
by ilovesf
No
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:20 am
by northwood
or you could have friends that are not in law school... and not talk about law school. its so nice to be away from it, especially the 2 months leading up to finals and finals week
Re: Are bottom of the class students treated as pariahs?
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:30 am
by TheGreatFish
scifiguy wrote:I've read in a few comments here and there that often the top of the class students in law school will cluster together.
Does it go further than that, however, where students who may be in the bottom of a class become treated as pariahs?
Not in my experience. In my class people rarely talked about grades anyway, so I never really knew who was at the bottom. I think most students know it's a sensitive topic.
Lawyers and Law Students are expected to behave like professionals. It's in your best interest to treat everyone with respect, regardless of where they stand in the class.