Notre Dame 3L taking questions Forum

[ndirish2010]

I'm sure the other NDLS people on here will join, we had a thread a while ago.

Done with the job search, now just school, so ask anything.

[Bryce]

How was living in South Bend? I visited recently and was not impressed. Was there a social scene? How are your job prospects and where are planning on taking the bar? Starting salary?

[ndirish2010]

I love South Bend, but I know there are a fair amount of complaints about it. As you can see to my avatar and handle, I went to ND undergrad as well, and I'm very comfortable in the area. It really depends on what you're looking for in a city: if you want a big city and you really won't be happy without one, you should look elsewhere, but if you don't, you could enjoy it here.

I'm going to be doing a federal district clerkship next year (not in Indiana), but I plan on sitting for the Indiana bar in the summer.

[stuffnuff]

How do you find your class and the 2L class to be doing in the job hunt? I'd be especially grateful/curious to hear (if you know) how you guys are doing relative to peer schools.

[ndirish2010]

I can't speak for our peers, but the 2L class here seems to be doing very well. I know people as far down as 3.4 with multiple firm offers. Most of the LR kids already have jobs, including some at V5s. Its by no means a boom time, but I think it is getting better.

[andythefir]

Class of 2014 here. They call ND a national school because we place people all over the country. The catch is that the most successful people in the job hunt are from small states and want to go back. I'm from New Mexico and firms there are enthusiastic about non stellar grades just because it's ND. I think a lot of the people that struggle are trying to get into markets that aren't impressed by ND or are flooded with law schools and law students.
What ND does better than almost any other institution is brand preservation/promotion. A clerk I worked with this summer thought NDLS was ranked #13, love it or hate it people recognize ND. A factor people underemphasize in my opinion is impressing a client that looks at an attorney's page on the firm site. Clients recognize ND.

[ndirish2010]

Class of 2014 here. They call ND a national school because we place people all over the country. The catch is that the most successful people in the job hunt are from small states and want to go back. I'm from New Mexico and firms there are enthusiastic about non stellar grades just because it's ND. I think a lot of the people that struggle are trying to get into markets that aren't impressed by ND or are flooded with law schools and law students.
What ND does better than almost any other institution is brand preservation/promotion. A clerk I worked with this summer thought NDLS was ranked #13, love it or hate it people recognize ND. A factor people underemphasize in my opinion is impressing a client that looks at an attorney's page on the firm site. Clients recognize ND.

This is all true. If you are from a small market and want to go back, and can get into ND for reasonable money, it's a good choice (especially if there are a lot of Catholics in your market, but even if there aren't).

[TheThriller]

Just a few quick questions:

Y'all have mentioned ND doing well in small markets but how about NYC, DC, Chicago?

[ndirish2010]

There aren't too many people that are going to major markets, but it really isn't because of the school as much as the lack of interest. We actually canceled our DC Off-Site program due to lack of interest this summer, but 3 people are headed to DC from my LR class (and there may be a couple of others)...NY we have a few more (and the 2Ls this year have a couple of V5 offers under their belts)...Chicago, the market sucks, I honestly don't know of more than 4 or 5 but I am sure there are more. Jones Day Chicago will always at least hire 1 or 2...we also had people at Jenner and Sidley.

[andythefir]

There are a lot of folks from Chicago, and I know there's a lot of Chicago callbacks going on but I can't speak to the class of 2014's success. I do know a handful of people with NY offers but nothing systematic, sorry.
I think a reason why there's not as much interest as you'd expect in Chicago/NY and vice versa is that people who are dying to get to those markets go to peer schools in those cities or places like Loyola that can put you in the city year-round for networking, externships etc. South Bend isn't anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be but if you can't handle not being in a huge city you'll die.
I will say though, I've literally never emailed a domer that didn't get back to me right away and ask me to lunch. You can get your foot in the door in almost any city.

[TheThriller]

There are a lot of folks from Chicago, and I know there's a lot of Chicago callbacks going on but I can't speak to the class of 2014's success. I do know a handful of people with NY offers but nothing systematic, sorry.
I think a reason why there's not as much interest as you'd expect in Chicago/NY and vice versa is that people who are dying to get to those markets go to peer schools in those cities or places like Loyola that can put you in the city year-round for networking, externships etc. South Bend isn't anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be but if you can't handle not being in a huge city you'll die.
I will say though, I've literally never emailed a domer that didn't get back to me right away and ask me to lunch. You can get your foot in the door in almost any city.

Thank you, by peer I am assuming UIUC, WUSTL, UMN?

And any knowledge about how clerkship placement has been the past few years and academia for that matter (if at all)?

[ndirish2010]

Placement in academia is going to be nonexistent...though several of our profs are NDLS grads, you have to be a once-in-a-generation type student here to have a shot. I think it is fair to say that AJ Bellia and Amy Barrett were both that.

As far as clerkships, seems like the 2013 class is not doing as well as 2012 did. I know there were several people last year with Circuit clerkships and a couple of others with districts. This year we only know of 4 people total so far with Article III clerkships (2 Circuit and 2 District), though that number could go up a bit still. Certain professors are very well connected with certain judges and we tend to do well with conservative A3 judges. The number this year I think is more of a function of people on LR being happy with their jobs and not applying super broadly.

[TheThriller]

Placement in academia is going to be nonexistent...though several of our profs are NDLS grads, you have to be a once-in-a-generation type student here to have a shot. I think it is fair to say that AJ Bellia and Amy Barrett were both that.

As far as clerkships, seems like the 2013 class is not doing as well as 2012 did. I know there were several people last year with Circuit clerkships and a couple of others with districts. This year we only know of 4 people total so far with Article III clerkships (2 Circuit and 2 District), though that number could go up a bit still. Certain professors are very well connected with certain judges and we tend to do well with conservative A3 judges. The number this year I think is more of a function of people on LR being happy with their jobs and not applying super broadly.

Is the reality at ND is that LR = good job opportunities but those not on LR are kinda SOL? I assume this is pretty much the reality throughout the T20s?

Sorry for all these questions, just want to make the most educated choice when it comes down to it.

[ndirish2010]

Placement in academia is going to be nonexistent...though several of our profs are NDLS grads, you have to be a once-in-a-generation type student here to have a shot. I think it is fair to say that AJ Bellia and Amy Barrett were both that.

As far as clerkships, seems like the 2013 class is not doing as well as 2012 did. I know there were several people last year with Circuit clerkships and a couple of others with districts. This year we only know of 4 people total so far with Article III clerkships (2 Circuit and 2 District), though that number could go up a bit still. Certain professors are very well connected with certain judges and we tend to do well with conservative A3 judges. The number this year I think is more of a function of people on LR being happy with their jobs and not applying super broadly.

Is the reality at ND is that LR = good job opportunities but those not on LR are kinda SOL? I assume this is pretty much the reality throughout the T20s?

Sorry for all these questions, just want to make the most educated choice when it comes down to it.

I know several people not on LR who got market-paying SAs...my guess is close to 20-25. Almost everyone on LR got one. There were probably around 45-50 SAs in the class in 2013. I have really no idea about 2014, but from my observations in the LR office, they seem to be doing well and collecting more offers than we did.

[TheThriller]

Placement in academia is going to be nonexistent...though several of our profs are NDLS grads, you have to be a once-in-a-generation type student here to have a shot. I think it is fair to say that AJ Bellia and Amy Barrett were both that.

As far as clerkships, seems like the 2013 class is not doing as well as 2012 did. I know there were several people last year with Circuit clerkships and a couple of others with districts. This year we only know of 4 people total so far with Article III clerkships (2 Circuit and 2 District), though that number could go up a bit still. Certain professors are very well connected with certain judges and we tend to do well with conservative A3 judges. The number this year I think is more of a function of people on LR being happy with their jobs and not applying super broadly.

Is the reality at ND is that LR = good job opportunities but those not on LR are kinda SOL? I assume this is pretty much the reality throughout the T20s?

Sorry for all these questions, just want to make the most educated choice when it comes down to it.

I know several people not on LR who got market-paying SAs...my guess is close to 20-25. Almost everyone on LR got one. There were probably around 45-50 SAs in the class in 2013. I have really no idea about 2014, but from my observations in the LR office, they seem to be doing well and collecting more offers than we did.

and SA means Summer Associate?

[ndirish2010]

Yep.

[andythefir]

Definitely not true that not on law review/top 20%=unemployed. A boring person without marketable skills trying to crack a competitive market is in trouble coming from any school. I'm above median but nowhere near top 20% and had no trouble landing a great SA.
If you're smart about it ND can be an amazing opportunity. Look at the US News methodology, ND kills its peers everywhere except for peer assessment (anti-Catholic/religious sentiment if you ask me) and it will only go up in ranking. The school recently doubled in size while keeping its comparatively small (180 give or take) class and without exception the young faculty are superstars. ND does big (LRAP) and small (summer stipends for 1Ls) things that make our lives much better. If it's news that bad grades anywhere will keep you out of biglaw then that's on you for not paying attention. If you're trying to get from FL to Ohio then you may have a problem but if you don't have geographic liabilities like that you can have a great time here.
Also, no surprise that the class of 2011 was a bloodbath but the class of 2012 came into the job hunt with their eyes wide open and (from what I hear) did much better, as did subsequent classes.
One of the things that defines the "new normal" of legal hiring is that the jobs shifted a tier up. In the boom times ND grads could do what they wanted as far as jobs go, but when things blew up a lot of biglaw dried up because they could only hire elite schools. Now ND has a niche where ND kids can clobber regional schools for regional biglaw/midlaw/government jobs because it has the great brand and there are just so few of us relative to some 600 person class schools.

[bcsum00]

Not on LR - going to a v10

[TheThriller]

So I am an undergrad at IU right now, if I were to post back here in a few months would any of y'all be willing to meet and maybe show me around the school?

Also, thanks for answering all the questions!

[ndirish2010]

So I am an undergrad at IU right now, if I were to post back here in a few months would any of y'all be willing to meet and maybe show me around the school?

Also, thanks for answering all the questions!

In exchange for a ticket to the IU-Carolina game, I'd love to! Just kidding, though the ticket would be nice.

[Paraflam]

What's the atmosphere like with respect to religion? Would someone who is not at all religious feel uncomfortable/out of place there?

[ndirish2010]

What's the atmosphere like with respect to religion? Would someone who is not at all religious feel uncomfortable/out of place there?

This question always comes up. I was raised Catholic but haven't practiced since I was confirmed 10 years ago, and Notre Dame was always my dream school. I love the atmosphere here. If people that take their faith seriously offend you, then by all means you should go somewhere else. But to most people, the fact that there are many religious people here, and the fact that professors sometimes begin class with a prayer, do not bother them.

[ndirish2010]

bump.

[nkime]

Do you know the job placement of international students in ND?
I love ND and it's definitely my top choice school but I heard that international students in the Midwest region are not doing well in the job hunt and have to go NYC for big law.

[ndirish2010]

I can't really speak to any specific anecdotes since I don't know any international students, but I would say it would be pretty hard to convince firms in the smaller Midwest markets, or even in Chicago, that you're serious about staying if you're not even from the US. I had a lot of trouble in the Midwest and I'm just from the East Coast. That is just a guess though.