Top Law Schools

I'm a 0L looking at options for my 1L & beyond. Currently accepted @ #34 W&M and #19 UMN with similar cost of attendance (~90k). I realize these rankings fluctuate a ton, and thus may be bias this year. Ultimately I'd like to end up HYS/CCN/berk/penn. Would I be substantially better off going to MN due to its T20 status?

My wife and I aren't really jazzed about the idea of living in Minnesota unless its really necessary. ANY insight you may have would be greatly appreciated!

I saw you post this elsewhere and here's the deal - don't go to a law school with your heart set on transferring. Retake your LSAT until you get the score you need to get into the school you really want to attend. This seems like it would suck, but there are a lot of positives that come from waiting another year to go to law school. You and your wife can save money, you can do more research on the schools that you like, visit, and talk to people there so you know what the atmosphere is like. Then you can make the best possible decision for you and those who count on you.

pinkcamellia wrote:I saw you post this elsewhere and here's the deal - don't go to a law school with your heart set on transferring. Retake your LSAT until you get the score you need to get into the school you really want to attend. This seems like it would suck, but there are a lot of positives that come from waiting another year to go to law school. You and your wife can save money, you can do more research on the schools that you like, visit, and talk to people there so you know what the atmosphere is like. Then you can make the best possible decision for you and those who count on you.

Definitely agree on all accounts. I'm registered for the June LSAT, but still need to proceed on all fronts in case it doesn't go as well as I'm pre-testing. I am prepared to graduate from either one of these schools, but am also wanting to maximize chances of a T10 transfer.

Disagree and agree. Go to a law school that you like and the best one you can get into. But the desire to transfer can be great motivation to study endless hours for your exams.

Nammertat wrote:

pinkcamellia wrote:I saw you post this elsewhere and here's the deal - don't go to a law school with your heart set on transferring. Retake your LSAT until you get the score you need to get into the school you really want to attend. This seems like it would suck, but there are a lot of positives that come from waiting another year to go to law school. You and your wife can save money, you can do more research on the schools that you like, visit, and talk to people there so you know what the atmosphere is like. Then you can make the best possible decision for you and those who count on you.

Definitely agree on all accounts. I'm registered for the June LSAT, but still need to proceed on all fronts in case it doesn't go as well as I'm pre-testing. I am prepared to graduate from either one of these schools, but am also wanting to maximize chances of a T10 transfer.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I think if you have to make a choice, UMN is the better choice here. W&M is a regional school that competes in a very popular area with a lot of law schools. I don't know if staying at UMN past a year would make your wife very happy though if she dislikes the area and you end up not being in a position to transfer, and you're probably still looking at jobs in that region. I think you would do better focusing less on rankings and more on where you would enjoy living and working. A law degree outside of the T14 is not as portable as it seems.

If I could tell you anything, it would be that 100% of people going into law school believe they will be top 10%. 90% of those people are wrong. Just think about that for a second. I'm not saying you won't be top 10% - how should I know? But what I do know is that it's not likely. Transferring is never a sure thing. Please think about all the possibilities before you make your deposit.

jarofsoup wrote:Disagree and agree. Go to a law school that you like and the best one you can get into. But the desire to transfer can be great motivation to study endless hours for your exams.

There's no doubt that it's great motivation. But unless it's YHS, there's always room to have transferring as a motivation! I just think that with the schools he wants, it would be better to retake.

pinkcamellia wrote:

Nammertat wrote:

pinkcamellia wrote:I saw you post this elsewhere and here's the deal - don't go to a law school with your heart set on transferring. Retake your LSAT until you get the score you need to get into the school you really want to attend. This seems like it would suck, but there are a lot of positives that come from waiting another year to go to law school. You and your wife can save money, you can do more research on the schools that you like, visit, and talk to people there so you know what the atmosphere is like. Then you can make the best possible decision for you and those who count on you.

Definitely agree on all accounts. I'm registered for the June LSAT, but still need to proceed on all fronts in case it doesn't go as well as I'm pre-testing. I am prepared to graduate from either one of these schools, but am also wanting to maximize chances of a T10 transfer.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I think if you have to make a choice, UMN is the better choice here. W&M is a regional school that competes in a very popular area with a lot of law schools. I don't know if staying at UMN past a year would make your wife very happy though if she dislikes the area and you end up not being in a position to transfer, and you're probably still looking at jobs in that region. I think you would do better focusing less on rankings and more on where you would enjoy living and working. A law degree outside of the T14 is not as portable as it seems.

If I could tell you anything, it would be that 100% of people going into law school believe they will be top 10%. 90% of those people are wrong. Just think about that for a second. I'm not saying you won't be top 10% - how should I know? But what I do know is that it's not likely. Transferring is never a sure thing. Please think about all the possibilities before you make your deposit.

Again, I have to agree with everything you've said. It's definitely not a guarantee, and I fully realize this. Regardless of my 4.0 undergrad, there is always that (very real) chance that I won't nail law school in the same way.

My June retake is absolutely the primary focus right now and if I happen to bump significantly, I am fully prepared to sit out a year and re-apply. Timing is going to be pretty tight considering June scores come out early July, and I'll be moving late July. Definitely still worth it though!

Also sitting on the WL @ Penn/UVA, which would obviously change this formula quite a bit.

Nammertat wrote:

pinkcamellia wrote:

Nammertat wrote:

pinkcamellia wrote:I saw you post this elsewhere and here's the deal - don't go to a law school with your heart set on transferring. Retake your LSAT until you get the score you need to get into the school you really want to attend. This seems like it would suck, but there are a lot of positives that come from waiting another year to go to law school. You and your wife can save money, you can do more research on the schools that you like, visit, and talk to people there so you know what the atmosphere is like. Then you can make the best possible decision for you and those who count on you.

Definitely agree on all accounts. I'm registered for the June LSAT, but still need to proceed on all fronts in case it doesn't go as well as I'm pre-testing. I am prepared to graduate from either one of these schools, but am also wanting to maximize chances of a T10 transfer.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I think if you have to make a choice, UMN is the better choice here. W&M is a regional school that competes in a very popular area with a lot of law schools. I don't know if staying at UMN past a year would make your wife very happy though if she dislikes the area and you end up not being in a position to transfer, and you're probably still looking at jobs in that region. I think you would do better focusing less on rankings and more on where you would enjoy living and working. A law degree outside of the T14 is not as portable as it seems.

If I could tell you anything, it would be that 100% of people going into law school believe they will be top 10%. 90% of those people are wrong. Just think about that for a second. I'm not saying you won't be top 10% - how should I know? But what I do know is that it's not likely. Transferring is never a sure thing. Please think about all the possibilities before you make your deposit.

Again, I have to agree with everything you've said. It's definitely not a guarantee, and I fully realize this. Regardless of my 4.0 undergrad, there is always that (very real) chance that I won't nail law school in the same way.

My June retake is absolutely the primary focus right now and if I happen to bump significantly, I am fully prepared to sit out a year and re-apply. Timing is going to be pretty tight considering June scores come out early July, and I'll be moving late July. Definitely still worth it though!

Also sitting on the WL @ Penn/UVA, which would obviously change this formula quite a bit.

You may have already done this, but you may want to consider sending an LOCI (Letter of Continued Interest) to Penn and UVA. There are also a lot of resources on here that can help you create a plan to study for the LSAT. There are also helpful threads on how to study once you start your 1L year. A quick search of the different forums should help you find those resources. Good luck with your decision!

bk187 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=170597

This link explicitly tells me to post in the "ask a student" forum. I removed the post from the Transfer area about a half hour ago, as soon as I realized it was in the wrong place. Am I missing something?

I've sent LOCIs every 4 weeks or so to Penn & UVA, as well as visited both and met with admissions staff. Also gone through extensive TLS LSAT prep, and am taking a Princeton Review LSAT prep course.

Would still be really interested in hearing transfer advice from the general community. It seems like T20 has been more successfully at bumping to T10, but I haven't confirmed that with any sort of hard data.

Nammertat wrote:

bk187 wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=170597

This link explicitly tells me to post in the "ask a student" forum. I removed the post from the Transfer area about a half hour ago, as soon as I realized it was in the wrong place. Am I missing something?

Read the section past where to post about it.

You really shouldn't be thinking about transferring now and definitely shouldn't pick a school based on transferring since most likely you will not be able to transfer.

Nammertat wrote:I've sent LOCIs every 4 weeks or so to Penn & UVA, as well as visited both and met with admissions staff. Also gone through extensive TLS LSAT prep, and am taking a Princeton Review LSAT prep course.

Would still be really interested in hearing transfer advice from the general community. It seems like T20 has been more successfully at bumping to T10, but I haven't confirmed that with any sort of hard data.

You really think that schools evaluate transfers based on year-to-year fluctuations in USNWR? And how does it seem that T20's are more successful at transferring to the T10 when you haven't seen any hard data?

bk187 wrote:

Nammertat wrote:I've sent LOCIs every 4 weeks or so to Penn & UVA, as well as visited both and met with admissions staff. Also gone through extensive TLS LSAT prep, and am taking a Princeton Review LSAT prep course.

Would still be really interested in hearing transfer advice from the general community. It seems like T20 has been more successfully at bumping to T10, but I haven't confirmed that with any sort of hard data.

You really think that schools evaluate transfers based on year-to-year fluctuations in USNWR? And how does it seem that T20's are more successful at transferring to the T10 when you haven't seen any hard data?

I think that's just code for "I pulled it out of my ass"

bk187 wrote:

Nammertat wrote:I've sent LOCIs every 4 weeks or so to Penn & UVA, as well as visited both and met with admissions staff. Also gone through extensive TLS LSAT prep, and am taking a Princeton Review LSAT prep course.

Would still be really interested in hearing transfer advice from the general community. It seems like T20 has been more successfully at bumping to T10, but I haven't confirmed that with any sort of hard data.

You really think that schools evaluate transfers based on year-to-year fluctuations in USNWR? And how does it seem that T20's are more successful at transferring to the T10 when you haven't seen any hard data?

To transfer into HYS you need:
-top 5-10% at a Top 20
-top 5% at T1
-top 1% at a mid-upper T2
-Other notes: People in the top 1% in the Top 20 generally have a lock on at least one of the holy trinity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937

Nammertat wrote:To transfer into HYS you need:
-top 5-10% at a Top 20
-top 5% at T1
-top 1% at a mid-upper T2
-Other notes: People in the top 1% in the Top 20 generally have a lock on at least one of the holy trinity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937

Arrow specifically notes that those are his estimates/guesses. I highly doubt he intended to convey that the odds for a school ranked 50th is 5% yet the odds for a school ranked 51st is 1%.

bk187 wrote:

Nammertat wrote:To transfer into HYS you need:
-top 5-10% at a Top 20
-top 5% at T1
-top 1% at a mid-upper T2
-Other notes: People in the top 1% in the Top 20 generally have a lock on at least one of the holy trinity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937

Arrow specifically notes that those are his estimates/guesses. I highly doubt he intended to convey that the odds for a school ranked 50th is 5% yet the odds for a school ranked 51st is 1%.

That's probably a fair statement, but we're not talking about 1 or 2 ranks. UMN has W&M by 15 spots, which I would think to be rather substantial.

Nammertat wrote:

bk187 wrote:

Nammertat wrote:To transfer into HYS you need:
-top 5-10% at a Top 20
-top 5% at T1
-top 1% at a mid-upper T2
-Other notes: People in the top 1% in the Top 20 generally have a lock on at least one of the holy trinity.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937

Arrow specifically notes that those are his estimates/guesses. I highly doubt he intended to convey that the odds for a school ranked 50th is 5% yet the odds for a school ranked 51st is 1%.

That's probably a fair statement, but we're not talking about 1 or 2 ranks. UMN has W&M by 15 spots, which I would think to be rather substantial.

UMN and W&M are pretty much peer schools. They'll likely be evaluated the same.

The more competitive T30s (i.e. GWU, BU, BC, Fordham) will likely hold more weight in transferring than UMN or U Wisconsin

I'm just a 0L so I will phrase this as a question.

Isn't it infinitely easier to break 170 on the LSAT than to break top 5% in 1L?

dextermorgan wrote:I'm just a 0L so I will phrase this as a question.

Isn't it infinitely easier to break 170 on the LSAT than to break top 5% in 1L?

The math doesn't quite add up here. A 170 is the ~97.4th percentile. I wouldn't imagine that to be statistically easier than getting into the top 5-10% of your class. (not to mention that grades don't always match standardized testing scores)

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said about your LSAT predicting possible success in law school. After all, this is why they use it for admissions.

dextermorgan wrote:I'm just a 0L so I will phrase this as a question.

Isn't it infinitely easier to break 170 on the LSAT than to break top 5% in 1L?

Yes...you can retake the LSAT, you can't retake 1L year. Also, 95% of your law school class will be roughly equivalent in terms of ability- ex. see Emory's LSAT 25/50/75 medians, whereas LSAT pool is significantly more varied.

Don't let be people on TLS get you down. Almost every person who actually transfers went into the school they went to with the intent to transfer. I know I did and I ended up transferring to a school in the Top 14.

You will be better off at a higher ranked school, all things being equal, and 10 ranks is a lot of ranks. For Yale, school rank makes a the biggest difference. It is exponentially harder to get in as #1 at the 40th ranked school than as #1 at the 20th ranked school.

For Harvard, it's not that big a deal but they require you to be #1-#5 at the school if outside the T16 (but they will reach down to the fifties and beyond). To transfer to the rest of the T-8, you can be in the Top 5% at either school and you will definitely get in somewhere from either place, with school rank probably making minimal difference.

The school's rank will do you more favors if you are in the top 10-15%. When aiming for a slot in the lower T-14 (think Georgetown), the higher rank will probably help you to get into a school you otherwise would have missed

Nammertat wrote:

dextermorgan wrote:I'm just a 0L so I will phrase this as a question.

Isn't it infinitely easier to break 170 on the LSAT than to break top 5% in 1L?

The math doesn't quite add up here. A 170 is the ~97.4th percentile. I wouldn't imagine that to be statistically easier than getting into the top 5-10% of your class. (not to mention that grades don't always match standardized testing scores)

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said about your LSAT predicting possible success in law school. After all, this is why they use it for admissions.

Two things you are neglecting:
1. A 170 is ~97.4th percentile among all people interested in law school so it can't be compared to class rank where the population is of people of all the same caliber level of talents. I think nearly any law student would say it is immensely easier to get a 170 than to finish in the top 5-10% of the T30.

2. The LSAT is objective. Law school grades are not.

Nammertat wrote:

dextermorgan wrote:I'm just a 0L so I will phrase this as a question.

Isn't it infinitely easier to break 170 on the LSAT than to break top 5% in 1L?

The math doesn't quite add up here. A 170 is the ~97.4th percentile. I wouldn't imagine that to be statistically easier than getting into the top 5-10% of your class. (not to mention that grades don't always match standardized testing scores)

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said about your LSAT predicting possible success in law school. After all, this is why they use it for admissions.

The key thing is that the LSAT is not an even playing field. There are a ton of people who barely put in any time when they take it and of people who you are far smarter than who take it. So it isn't really fair to say that you have a 2.5% chance of getting a 170. On the other hand, law school pits you on a forced curve against people who have a narrow band of LSAT/GPA to you. Law school is roughly a level playing field (at least it's far more level than the LSAT). Especially since level of preparedness in law school finals is pretty close across the board whereas it is not for the LSAT. Not to mention that you get nigh infinite times to take the LSAT (3 times per 2 years) and it only costs a couple hundred bucks. 1L you only have 1 shot at and it costs thousands of dollars for the most part (debt/tuition/opportunity costs).

Nammertat wrote: To transfer into HYS you need:
-top 5-10% at a Top 20

just so you know, it's more like #1 for Y, top 5 students overall for HS from a top 20 and probably top 2 or 3 students overall for HS from T1