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No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but ere is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.
LawIdiot86 wrote:No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.
Alums don't get people jobs, they get people interviews (unless they sit on the recruiting committee). So, yes, they can place marginal students into jobs should they interview well.LawIdiot86 wrote:No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but ere is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.
JusticeHarlan wrote:First, this sub-forum isn't for 0L questions.
I hear this, I have friends who went to Penn State who swear by a similar creed. I hold the exact opposite view. That it doesn't matter where you go to college or law school as far as school culture is concerned because you can adapt to anything for three or four years. You'll make your life network of smart, kind, dedicated people from the industry and area you eventually settle in and the college/alumni network will matter very little unless you settle down in your college/law school's town. Excluding the employment aspect, I would be shocked if ND's alumni network benefited someone who moved to DC after school as much as AU's alumni network even though AU has 1/20th the dedication ND does.Lvaughn714 wrote:LawIdiot86 wrote:No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.
Also, you will see I never said anything about the alumni network being the most important. I agree, all of those other factors are very important when choosing a school. I was simply stating that alumni network of ND and NDLS is an external factor that is unlike the experience you will have with many other schools. I'm not asserting that it will have direct implications on your future employment, but rather implying that having such a strong network of people who are smart, kind, and dedicated to helping each other can be a helpful tool in life in general, which includes more than just your job (which is very important, but not everything).
Obviously this is not going to be important to all people, but I think for most who end up at NDLS, the community feel is a legitimate factor in their decision and that community is extended post graduation.
Even if ND has a fantastic alumni network, it doesn't have one in Boston. I'm sure there are a few in NY/DC, but why wouldn't you just go to the better school for the area? I'm sure Fordham has tons of more employers from NY going to their OCI, same with GW and DC. Going to ND for the east coast will likely end up very poorly.Lvaughn714 wrote:LawIdiot86 wrote:No, there are many many things more important than an alumni network. School rank, placement numbers, location, professors, internship placements, and scholarship money are all more important than alumni network. Alumni network is particularly worthless at a school like ND where there aren't enough alums at firms to get more marginal students in than who could get in on their own. I'm rather surprised ND's USNWR and NLJ250 ranks are equal despite the structural disadvantages it faces.Lvaughn714 wrote:People underestimate it all the time but there is nothing like having the most legit dedicated alumni network ever at your back for the rest of your life.
Also, you will see I never said anything about the alumni network being the most important. I agree, all of those other factors are very important when choosing a school. I was simply stating that alumni network of ND and NDLS is an external factor that is unlike the experience you will have with many other schools. I'm not asserting that it will have direct implications on your future employment, but rather implying that having such a strong network of people who are smart, kind, and dedicated to helping each other can be a helpful tool in life in general, which includes more than just your job (which is very important, but not everything).
Obviously this is not going to be important to all people, but I think for most who end up at NDLS, the community feel is a legitimate factor in their decision and that community is extended post graduation.
You can all see from the above that I actually recommend OP going to a closer regional school if East Coast BL is their undying goal. I simply mention the alumni network/community aspect so they don't think that going to ND would be putting a nail in the coffin of their East Coast dream. I agree with all of you that it will be easier to do ECBL from a closer school, but obviously there is something about ND that appeals to OP so just trying to add some additional perspective, not everything is completely Black and White.Lvaughn714 wrote:What are your other options? It is true that there are peer schools closer to these markets, but it doesn't make it impossible to reach them from ND, just means you need to do better at ND than you probably would have to at the peers. If you cab do Fordham, BC etc, probably a better fit for you unless there is an additional factor making you lean to ND.
Also, I would argue at Chicago is a decent home market for ND. Yes there are other schools actually in chicago, but ND is competitive with them if not better.
I suspect ND's 22 ranking in USNWR is the sole aspect that appeals to OP. For the T15-T30, employment, geography and scholarship money are the only factors that matter (and in that order).Lvaughn714 wrote:You can all see from the above that I actually recommend OP going to a closer regional school if East Coast BL is their undying goal. I simply mention the alumni network/community aspect so they don't think that going to ND would be putting a nail in the coffin of their East Coast dream. I agree with all of you that it will be easier to do ECBL from a closer school, but obviously there is something about ND that appeals to OP so just trying to add some additional perspective, not everything is completely Black and White.Lvaughn714 wrote:What are your other options? It is true that there are peer schools closer to these markets, but it doesn't make it impossible to reach them from ND, just means you need to do better at ND than you probably would have to at the peers. If you cab do Fordham, BC etc, probably a better fit for you unless there is an additional factor making you lean to ND.
Also, I would argue at Chicago is a decent home market for ND. Yes there are other schools actually in chicago, but ND is competitive with them if not better.
Fixed that for you.LawIdiot86 wrote:I suspect ND's 22 ranking in USNWR is the sole aspect that appeals to OP. For ALL LAW SCHOOLS, employment, geography and scholarship money are the only factors that matter (and in that order).
So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.
This is interesting because I also have a friend who is a 2L who also has an SA in California who told me a completely different story with regards to other 2L'sFloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.
Well, yes, but only within a given tier. Any T6 beats any T14 beats any T30 beats any T50, etc. It's only within those tiers that the employment > geography > scholarship > everything else rules apply (and scholarship becomes #1 outside of the T30).Aberzombie1892 wrote:Fixed that for you.LawIdiot86 wrote:I suspect ND's 22 ranking in USNWR is the sole aspect that appeals to OP. For ALL LAW SCHOOLS, employment, geography and scholarship money are the only factors that matter (and in that order).
I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.Aberzombie1892 wrote:So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.
If ND only had 26 starting gigs at NLJ25s0 (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520), I would find the idea that one person only knew 10 SAs to be very very plausible.bk187 wrote:I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.Aberzombie1892 wrote:So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.
Totally agree. When only 26 people from the school are able to secure any NLJ250 SA's, knowing of 10 of them personally is actually a pretty big chunk. And remember that the majority of these SA's are likely in markets close to Notre Dame (i.e. Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, etc.) I would venture a guess that the number in NY or DC could be counted on a single hand. Given the immense difficulty of securing ANY SA out of Notre Dame in ANY geographic location, it would seem very unwise to expect one specifically in a market where such a small fraction of the class will end up.LawIdiot86 wrote:If ND only had 26 starting gigs at NLJ25s0 (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520), I would find the idea that one person only knew 10 SAs to be very very plausible.bk187 wrote:I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.Aberzombie1892 wrote:So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?FloridaCoastalorbust wrote:A friend of mine who is a ND 2L and landed a biglaw SA (in non East Coast market) explained that he could count on one, maybe two hands at most, 2Ls that landed SA's anywhere in the country.
Right, I'm sure ND dominates the IN market and places 10 at Baker Daniels, Barnes, Bingham Greenebaum, Ice Miller, and Taft, which leaves maybe 5 in Chi/StL, 5-10 in NY/DC/LA, and 5-10 in Atl/Tex/Ohio.kaiser wrote:Totally agree. When only 26 people from the school are able to secure any NLJ250 SA's, knowing of 10 of them personally is actually a pretty big chunk. And remember that the majority of these SA's are likely in markets close to Notre Dame (i.e. Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, etc.) I would venture a guess that the number in NY or DC could be counted on a single hand. Given the immense difficulty of securing ANY SA out of Notre Dame in ANY geographic location, it would seem very unwise to expect one specifically in a market where such a small fraction of the class will end up.LawIdiot86 wrote:If ND only had 26 starting gigs at NLJ25s0 (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520), I would find the idea that one person only knew 10 SAs to be very very plausible.bk187 wrote:I wouldn't actually be that shocked if it was really low. I recall that 1-2 of the ND posters on this board were lamenting about how much of a struggle it is there.Aberzombie1892 wrote: So he was basically saying that fewer than 10 people got SA's? Really?
I think this sounds right.mcdeeremitch wrote:Thank you all so much for the comments and debates...youve given me a lot of information to think about...right now Im leaning away from Notre Dame...its a great school but like a previous poster said I dont think I can hang my hat on so little of odds especially when I have gotten into albeit lower schools but on the east coast so they give me better odds than Notre Dame