Columbia students taking questions Forum

[FascinatedWanderer]

I never got the feeling that they were very plugged-in with judges and had a good idea of who was hiring and when. Both among feeders and non-feeders. Made it hard to try to strategically target professor calls. Also, even when they did know that certain desirable judges were hiring, they didn't do a great job of proactively reaching out to students who might be competitive for those spots to let them know.

I think this is their biggest problem. Other schools proactively reach out to their top students and try to land them clerkships, CLS doesn't.

I agree. Look, in my year, 2 of the top students (think basically 4.0) both ended up clerking for non-feeders. The school should do better than that.

If that's true I think the clerkship office deserves more blame. 4.0's at CLS,(assuming LR), should be getting feeder judges if: a. They want to clerk for a feeder and b. They apply to enough of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but top 5% at CCN is the general threshold for feeder judges so they should be getting something.

You misunderstand how the process works. Very few feeder (read none) judges will just pull apps from strong candidates. Even for 4.0s at CLS you need faculty calls. The clerkship office should be corralling professors and telling them to make calls for top students.

I wasn't that far off from that kind of GPA and I came up empty myself.

[derekne]

I never got the feeling that they were very plugged-in with judges and had a good idea of who was hiring and when. Both among feeders and non-feeders. Made it hard to try to strategically target professor calls. Also, even when they did know that certain desirable judges were hiring, they didn't do a great job of proactively reaching out to students who might be competitive for those spots to let them know.

I think this is their biggest problem. Other schools proactively reach out to their top students and try to land them clerkships, CLS doesn't.

I agree. Look, in my year, 2 of the top students (think basically 4.0) both ended up clerking for non-feeders. The school should do better than that.

If that's true I think the clerkship office deserves more blame. 4.0's at CLS,(assuming LR), should be getting feeder judges if: a. They want to clerk for a feeder and b. They apply to enough of them. Correct me if I'm wrong but top 5% at CCN is the general threshold for feeder judges so they should be getting something.

You misunderstand how the process works. Very few feeder (read none) judges will just pull apps from strong candidates. Even for 4.0s at CLS you need faculty calls. The clerkship office should be corralling professors and telling them to make calls for top students.

I wasn't that far off from that kind of GPA and I came up empty myself.

No my point was that the clerkship office is failing to do its job for numerically strong candidates who,(assuming proper resources), should be getting some bites. I understand that numerically strong candidates won't be placed in these chambers by their numbers alone.

[jbagelboy]

Just FYI, this discussion aside Columbia had the highest BL+FC this year of any school (82.8%). And I know many of the persons falling into the other categories and they all did so by choice (state supreme court clerkships, international clerkships, prestigious public interest and advocacy lit organizations, ect.). So people reading this should not be concerned about gainful employment from columbia

[GreenEggs]

Just FYI, this discussion aside Columbia had the highest BL+FC this year of any school (82.8%). And I know many of the persons falling into the other categories and they all did so by choice (state supreme court clerkships, international clerkships, prestigious public interest and advocacy lit organizations, ect.). So people reading this should not be concerned about gainful employment from columbia

Damn that's a nice stat. Just to chime in that jbagel is on point with the other 17% being people who are there almost all exclusively by choice. The kids who skipped EIP are almost all kids who easily could've had an offer out of EIP, but they have other career goals.

[FascinatedWanderer]

Just FYI, this discussion aside Columbia had the highest BL+FC this year of any school (82.8%). And I know many of the persons falling into the other categories and they all did so by choice (state supreme court clerkships, international clerkships, prestigious public interest and advocacy lit organizations, ect.). So people reading this should not be concerned about gainful employment from columbia

No one is disputing that CLS has excellent big law placement and will almost certainly get you gainful employment.

[jbagelboy]

Just FYI, this discussion aside Columbia had the highest BL+FC this year of any school (82.8%). And I know many of the persons falling into the other categories and they all did so by choice (state supreme court clerkships, international clerkships, prestigious public interest and advocacy lit organizations, ect.). So people reading this should not be concerned about gainful employment from columbia

No one is disputing that CLS has excellent big law placement and will almost certainly get you gainful employment.

Right. I guess I feel like that should be the prevailing feature of any candidate's decision to enter law school. Very few persons at any law school will ever clerk for a so-called "feeder" judge, and if that is one's expectation upon entry, barring perhaps Yale--the only school where any meaningful percentage of the class are actually getting those clerkships--one is deluding him or herself.

I do understand this is orthogonal to the point you are making. I just don't want this thread to continue ad anfinitum about how shitty the school is at one particular outcome.

[Nebby]

orthogonal

[lawlorbust]

TBF, it's really just BL (77.6%). There are 19 federal clerks (4.9%). Which is obviously not objectionable in itself--I think it's perfectly reasonable to pick a school that places into biglaw and only biglaw. And statistically, Columbia is obviously the best at that.

Columbia's clerk rate is undoubtedly why Nebby isn't dividing biglaw and clerk in OP.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=276222

[Nebby]

[jbagelboy]

TBF, it's really just BL (77.6%). There are 19 federal clerks (4.9%). Which is obviously not objectionable in itself--I think it's perfectly reasonable to pick a school that places into biglaw and only biglaw. And statistically, Columbia is obviously the best at that.

Columbia's clerk rate is undoubtedly why Nebby isn't dividing biglaw and clerk in OP.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=276222

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

[lawlorbust]

Oops. Got drawn in like a firefly to discussions about feeder clerkships. I'll show myself out now.

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

The statistic is mostly useful for how it provides an apples-to-apples comparison with other schools. Columbia is not uniquely experiencing a trend of law students doing fed clerkships a few years out. Nor is it the only school that sends students to state supreme courts. Your response is as much of a non-sequitur as criticizing the BL stat for not reflecting the many CLS students who end up at Susman / Kellogg Hansen.

[jbagelboy]

Oops. Got drawn in like a firefly to discussions about feeder clerkships. I'll show myself out now.

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

The statistic is mostly useful for how it provides an apples-to-apples comparison with other schools. Columbia is not uniquely experiencing a trend of law students doing fed clerkships a few years out. Nor is it the only school that sends students to state supreme courts. Your response is as much of a non-sequitur as criticizing the BL stat for not reflecting the many CLS students who end up at Susman / Kellogg Hansen.

Its not unique to CLS but I would argue it has impacted CLS, NYU and to a lesser degree HLS disproportionately hard relative to other T13's. Much of this is geography.

For example, it is not true that most of UVA or Berkeley's class of 2016 clerking are not counted in the stat. Whereas for CLS I know this to be the case.

[FascinatedWanderer]

Oops. Got drawn in like a firefly to discussions about feeder clerkships. I'll show myself out now.

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

The statistic is mostly useful for how it provides an apples-to-apples comparison with other schools. Columbia is not uniquely experiencing a trend of law students doing fed clerkships a few years out. Nor is it the only school that sends students to state supreme courts. Your response is as much of a non-sequitur as criticizing the BL stat for not reflecting the many CLS students who end up at Susman / Kellogg Hansen.

Its not unique to CLS but I would argue it has impacted CLS, NYU and to a lesser degree HLS disproportionately hard relative to other T13's. Much of this is geography.

For example, it is not true that most of UVA or Berkeley's class of 2016 clerking are not counted in the stat. Whereas for CLS I know this to be the case.

Another way to phrase this is that CLS has adapted uniquely badly to the demise of the plan.

I admire your relentless positive spin though.

[Dr_OIT]

Hey all, does the CLS community have any kind of established infrastructure (official or unofficial) to connect with other CLS students who are looking for roommates? Even, like, a Facebook group?

I anticipate I'll use on-campus housing, but since I'm already in NYC, I thought I might give the housing market a try myself -- but I wouldn't do it solo.

sry to deviate from the riveting clerkship discussion

[GoneSouth]

Oops. Got drawn in like a firefly to discussions about feeder clerkships. I'll show myself out now.

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

The statistic is mostly useful for how it provides an apples-to-apples comparison with other schools. Columbia is not uniquely experiencing a trend of law students doing fed clerkships a few years out. Nor is it the only school that sends students to state supreme courts. Your response is as much of a non-sequitur as criticizing the BL stat for not reflecting the many CLS students who end up at Susman / Kellogg Hansen.

Its not unique to CLS but I would argue it has impacted CLS, NYU and to a lesser degree HLS disproportionately hard relative to other T13's. Much of this is geography.

For example, it is not true that most of UVA or Berkeley's class of 2016 clerking are not counted in the stat. Whereas for CLS I know this to be the case.

Most of CLS's class of 2016 clerking is doing state supreme courts? That's kind of bizarre. Kind of doubt that that was the first choice of many of those people--which is only further ammo to support the idea that the clerkship office is not doing well.

Changing the subject, anyone learned anything else about the new guy they hired?

[jbagelboy]

Oops. Got drawn in like a firefly to discussions about feeder clerkships. I'll show myself out now.

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

The statistic is mostly useful for how it provides an apples-to-apples comparison with other schools. Columbia is not uniquely experiencing a trend of law students doing fed clerkships a few years out. Nor is it the only school that sends students to state supreme courts. Your response is as much of a non-sequitur as criticizing the BL stat for not reflecting the many CLS students who end up at Susman / Kellogg Hansen.

Its not unique to CLS but I would argue it has impacted CLS, NYU and to a lesser degree HLS disproportionately hard relative to other T13's. Much of this is geography.

For example, it is not true that most of UVA or Berkeley's class of 2016 clerking are not counted in the stat. Whereas for CLS I know this to be the case.

Most of CLS's class of 2016 clerking is doing state supreme courts? That's kind of bizarre. Kind of doubt that that was the first choice of many of those people--which is only further ammo to support the idea that the clerkship office is not doing well.

Changing the subject, anyone learned anything else about the new guy they hired?

That's not what I said. I mean that most of the people clerking from the class of 2016 are not doing so within 9 months of graduation. For example, one of these persons is currently at an SSC and will be heading to a federal clerkship later.

[FascinatedWanderer]

That's not what I said. I mean that most of the people clerking from the class of 2016 are not doing so within 9 months of graduation. For example, one of these persons is currently at an SSC and will be heading to a federal clerkship later.

I'd still be interested to know where you were getting your clerkship numbers. From every source I've seen your estimates were wildly overstating our placements with big-name judges, and I'm curious how the disparity arises since you say your sources are very reliable.

[stoopkid13]

Oops. Got drawn in like a firefly to discussions about feeder clerkships. I'll show myself out now.

i think you're quoting into the wrong thread. also I don't grasp the purpose of this point. most of the clerks in the class of 2016--including the state supreme court clerkships that are followed by federal clerkships--are not counted in that figure.

The statistic is mostly useful for how it provides an apples-to-apples comparison with other schools. Columbia is not uniquely experiencing a trend of law students doing fed clerkships a few years out. Nor is it the only school that sends students to state supreme courts. Your response is as much of a non-sequitur as criticizing the BL stat for not reflecting the many CLS students who end up at Susman / Kellogg Hansen.

Its not unique to CLS but I would argue it has impacted CLS, NYU and to a lesser degree HLS disproportionately hard relative to other T13's. Much of this is geography.

For example, it is not true that most of UVA or Berkeley's class of 2016 clerking are not counted in the stat. Whereas for CLS I know this to be the case.

And I think in some ways this makes sense when you consider where students from these schools end up clerking. It's not CLS's fault that many, if not most, SDNY judges want to see work experience before hiring clerks.

[GoneSouth]

I don't think you can attribute the different clerkship numbers between CLS and other schools purely to "CLS kids only want to clerk in NYC."

[Thelaw23]

I think a big part of people at Columbia vs people at other schools is that people in Columbia really want to be and stay in NYC.

It doesn't explain why NYU has a better fed clerk rate, though, but maybe it's about NYU crowd vs CLS crowd. Usually people get into both. NYU offers students more money. It could be argued that people who enroll into CLS over NYU care more about presige. Care more about prestige = more reluctant to clerk in fly over states.

[jb111]

I've had an up and down cycle, but right now I'm basically in the position that I expected to be in: Evaluating similar, small scholarships of ~75k (over 3 years) at both CLS & NYU and riding out the waitlist at Harvard.

So...

I enjoyed the vibe of CLS slightly more when I went to the NYU/CLS admit days a couple weeks ago, I'm uncertain about my long term plans but fairly certain biglaw will be a part of them, I'm vaguely drawn to Ivy league prestige, I like the idea of a campus within a city... Not sure what else is relevant.

Just want to check in a last time before I make my deposit. You guys/gals like it here for the most part? No dark secrets being hidden away? I should definitely deposit at NYU instead if ____ ?

[jbagelboy]

There is no universe where going to CLS at sticker makes sense when you have a $75,000 scholarship at NYU. Sorry :/

[jb111]

There is no universe where going to CLS at sticker makes sense when you have a $75,000 scholarship at NYU. Sorry :/

~75k at both. Sorry if that wasn't clear. So if that's the objection, I guess I'm in the clear

[GoneSouth]

I don't get that there are many people at CLS (or actually any that I know) that wish they went to NYU instead. Maybe it works the other way too. But if you're already leaning CLS, I'd say go with it.

[dabigchina]

Changing the subject, anyone learned anything else about the new guy they hired?

I feel like they've stopped sending out clerkship emails. That's the only thing I've really noticed since he came on board.

edit: jk we are still getting them. I did notice that they moved the Clerkship office under SJI. That makes no sense to me. I've only ever had shitty experiences with SJI so I question how that reorg is supposed to make the clerkship office better.