Top Law Schools

If you hated my last post about NYLS, then you will probably enjoy this one.

I recently transferred from NYLS to BU school of law. I'm grateful for getting the transfer.

Today, the Dean of NYLS sent me this email:

"I have been informed that you will be leaving New York Law School to attend another law school. I am sorry that you have chosen to leave us, but I want to wish you the best of luck at your new institution. I trust that you will find yourself well prepared to continue your legal studies there.

Later in the year, we may reach out to you to learn about your transition and experience at your new school. I would be most grateful if you would respond. In the meantime, we would appreciate knowing now the most important reason(s) you chose to transfer. Any insight into the choices you have made will help us build the strongest program we can for our students. You can respond to this email, or please feel free to contact Associate Dean Joan Fishman at 212-431-2850 or by email (joan.fishman@nyls.edu<mailto:joan.fishman@nyls.edu>).

Best of luck,

Richard A. Matasar
Dean and President"

This was my reply:

"Absolutely!

I truly enjoyed my time at New York Law School. The main reason for my transfer was, absolutely, employment prospects.
However, the better employment prospects comes alongside the rankings. The rankings are determined by the programs offered, faculty, etc. So, if I had to be picky and tell you what I wish NYLS had, I will...

1) More clinics...the student body is one of the largest and the student-faculty ratio is one of the worst at nearly 20 to 1. However, the clinical programs available are severely limited. At BU, not only were there spots available for me in the litigation clinic, but they were able to accomodate me as a transfer. I already have my first case working with Boston Greater Legal Services and school literally started last week.

2) More high quality professors...some of my professors were very good and they will contribute greatly to NYLS's success. However, the better they get, the more likely they will find another school, like NYU, to take them in - giving them the prestige they deserve. NYLS could secure these professors, not by giving them ungodly amounts of money, but surrounding them with more and more professors of their caliber. Suppose NYLS was able to secure multiple contingency employment contracts with some amazing professors from various schools. The contingency being that unless NYLS secures X professors, the contract won't go through. This would allow NYLS to have a shot at getting an A+ faculty while ensuring the new faculty that they aren't the only new addition. At worst, NYLS should get a series of visiting professors.

3) More journals!!! Understandably, this is controlled byt he students. However, it would help to have a professor say "hey, I want to sponsor a banking and finance journal", such as professor Shadab, and then find the students to run it. Having only a law review and one other journal is detrimental when schools, such as my new school, has 6 - of which I wrote-on to one. With that said, my next point...

4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

5) Lower the overall cost of tuition OR offer a TON more scholarships and let students KEEP them easier. Some friends of mine from undergrad chose their law school based on cost. Full tuition at Fordham vs. Full scholarship at NYLS. That is actually a choice some students had to make. There is an identifiable differential between a school's rank and cost.
NYLS is at a MAJOR disadvantage. It is charging tuition greater than every other NYC school except NYU, which is ranked 6th. NYLS is ranked 135th. Virtually no reduction in tuition will get NYLS a student vs NYU on an immediate basis. However, if NYLS lowered its tuition now to be competitive with other schools, NYLS will be able to climb the ranks and eventually be competitive with NYU years down the road. NYLS administrators need to quit thinking short-term. There is nothing you can do short-term that will make NYLS competitive. Think more like 10-15 years down the road. Can NYLS compete with NYU for the graduating Class of 2029? It could, if the administrators INVEST in the program appropriately. However, at the current rate, NYLS doesn't stand a chance and may end up fizzling out.

6) Lower the overall cost of tuition...PERIOD. I'm very aware I'm repeating points but the points must be made. NYLS is not NYU nor Columbia. It is not on the same level as Fordham, Cardozo, St. Johns, etc. Hell, it isn't even on the same level as CUNY. CUNY's LSAT average jumped nearly 10 points during hard financial times...why? Because of the very low cost and location. NYLS should NOT lower their cost to those levels, however they should lower it to just below Fordham, Cardozo, St. Johns, and Touro. When NYLS compares to NYU and Columbia, then raise the tuition to their levels. In this instance, location is not everything. We are in professional school and we are focused on getting jobs. Location doesn't get jobs...reputation does.

7) Lower the cost of tuition...GET THE POINT? A lowering of the tuition would be a huge sign to the legal market saying that NYLS is making serious efforts to turn their ranking around and to bring employers the best of the best. Also, legal communities, such as the much used http://www.top-law-schools.com, might actually say something nice about NYLS for a change. MIGHT being the operative word. I want my friends at NYLS to be very successful, but when the legal community publicly flogs NYLS for its ridiculous tuition considering its position it becomes very difficult.

Did you know that by transferring to the school I did, not only did I save $10,000 per year, but I gained a better OCI, more interviews, and more prestige?"


Anyone want to chime in, objectively?

Provide full and honest employment statistics?

--Its proactive and respectable for the school to ask for your feedback
--You were very kind to offer detailed, informative, and constructive feedback to the school

kaiser wrote:--Its proactive and respectable for the school to ask for your feedback
--You were very kind to offer detailed, informative, and constructive feedback to the school

Ha, thanks...I meant is there anything anyone would like to add.

Add to the point about lower cost of attendance by comparing to inflated employment statistics. Say that, by lowering the cost of attending, you reduce the need to provide inflated and egregiously false employment stats, thus helping to avoid the confusion that such manipulated stats ultimately cause.

kaiser wrote:Add to the point about lower cost of attendance by comparing to inflated employment statistics. Say that, by lowering the cost of attending, you reduce the need to provide inflated and egregiously false employment stats, thus helping to avoid the confusion that such manipulated stats ultimately cause.

Truuf

Coolgrnmen wrote:
4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

LOL

YourCaptain wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote:
4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

LOL

Yeah big LOL. Most schools have some grade on slots. Does NYLS have an exclusively grade on system or can you also write on?

Also, recommend to NYLS getting a dean who isn't a hypocritical d-bag.

Coolgrnmen wrote: 4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system.

UVa has 25 spots for grade-on, at least.

romothesavior wrote:

YourCaptain wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote:
4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

LOL

Yeah big LOL. Most schools have some grade on slots. Does NYLS have an exclusively grade on system or can you also write on?

Yeah, don't include that part. There are some major negatives to the "no grade on" system. The "a couple more journals" covers what you're looking for.

romothesavior wrote:

YourCaptain wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote:
4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

LOL

Yeah big LOL. Most schools have some grade on slots. Does NYLS have an exclusively grade on system or can you also write on?

@YourCaptain & RomotheSavior... it is a big LOL...it is an exclusive grade-on system. Then, when people transfer out they have a write-on at the end of the summer where two years ago, only 2 wrote-on, last year 0, and this year 4.

I'm aware top schools grade-on and I'm all for giving, say, the top 5% a spot in a class of 200-300. But the top 15% in a class of nearly 600? Come on!

itsirtou wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote: 4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system.

UVa has 25 spots for grade-on, at least.

That's nice...how many are available for write-on? Because NYLS has none unless enough people transfer out... NYLS's class size is nearly 600.

keg411 wrote:

romothesavior wrote:

YourCaptain wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote:
4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

LOL

Yeah big LOL. Most schools have some grade on slots. Does NYLS have an exclusively grade on system or can you also write on?

Yeah, don't include that part. There are some major negatives to the "no grade on" system. The "a couple more journals" covers what you're looking for.

Fine, they need to limit their grade-on system...severely...
The top 15% get law review automatically (and PS, they DON'T have to still do the write-on to accept the spot...they just accept it...). They ALSO get $10,000 auto-scholly (Yeah, that's it...at NYLS...they don't give full scholarship, half scholarship to retain their peeps. Finally, they also get the distinguishing "Harlan Scholar" and only they are allowed to affiliate with a "Academic Center".

Coolgrnmen wrote:


Fine, they need to limit their grade-on system...severely...
The top 15% get law review automatically (and PS, they DON'T have to still do the write-on to accept the spot...they just accept it...). They ALSO get $10,000 auto-scholly (Yeah, that's it...at NYLS...they don't give full scholarship, half scholarship to retain their peeps. Finally, they also get the distinguishing "Harlan Scholar" and only they are allowed to affiliate with a "Academic Center".

I'm still not seeing the problem here.

Your other complaints are legitimate but why shouldn't the top15% get what the school wishes to give them?

Southwestern's system is more reasonable. Top 10% grade on. 10 write on from
top 30%. Student quality at lower ranked schools falls off rather dramatically.

Loyola's system is top 5% grade on and the rest write on.

YourCaptain wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote:


Fine, they need to limit their grade-on system...severely...
The top 15% get law review automatically (and PS, they DON'T have to still do the write-on to accept the spot...they just accept it...). They ALSO get $10,000 auto-scholly (Yeah, that's it...at NYLS...they don't give full scholarship, half scholarship to retain their peeps. Finally, they also get the distinguishing "Harlan Scholar" and only they are allowed to affiliate with a "Academic Center".

I'm still not seeing the problem here.

Your other complaints are legitimate but why shouldn't the top15% get what the school wishes to give them?

My point being that the top 15% gets enough recognition by being in the top 15%. The top 15% now has no distinction between the rest of the top 15%. Number 1 has same distinguishing credentials as Number 75. Rather, Grade-on top 5% (who probably write very well...) and have the top 15% compete with the rest of the school in a write-on.

While quality may drop quickly at lower ranked schools, there are exceptions. Exceptional writers who deserve to be on law rev. don't have the chance. Especially if, say, they were sick during one of their exams and got a B-, throwing off his entire GPA. (Stupid cold!...)

"However" signals a change in direction. I don't think that words means what you think it means (inconceivable!)

Example: I love fruit, however I will be eating an apple for lunch or, I love fruit, and furthermore, I will be eating an apple for lunch.

kwais wrote:"However" signals a change in direction. I don't think that words means what you think it means (inconceivable!)

Example: I love fruit, however I will be eating an apple for lunch or, I love fruit, and furthermore, I will be eating an apple for lunch.

Admittedly, I overused "however," however, I didn't use it inappropriately in any of them...I think. Could be wrong, I took a brief look. Give me an example?

i would add something about reducing the size of their incoming class. 600 students per class is ridiculously large, and in a market that's already saturated with better schools with similarly huge class sizes. being more selective will also allow them to boost their LSAT and GPA numbers.

Might want to refer to their older Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =445426724

Coolgrnmen wrote:Did you know that by transferring to the school I did, not only did I save $10,000 per year, but I gained a better OCI, more interviews, and more prestige?"


Anyone want to chime in, objectively?

When you say that you gained a better OCI, were you able to actually land a summer job at Boston OCI? I suppose as top 20%, you would be barred from interviewing with most OCI interviewers at NYLS by virtue of the grade cut-off there. My understanding is that anything below 15% wont get an interview with the few large firms that come on campus. And in practice, the firms are only looking seriously at the top 5%.

Coolgrnmen wrote:4) Get rid of the grade-on system for Law Review. None of the top schools follow such a ridiculous system. In grading on, you ensure that the top 15% (of which a large portion have been transferring out) make law review. However, the top 15% don't necessarily know how to write or foot-note. I was barely top 20% but good enough to write-on here at BU as a transfer! Yes, there is a write-on to fill spots on the law rev, but they aren't substantial...maybe 4 spots for 80 write-ons? While an all-out write-on competition would be time consuming, many people who deserve the opportunity would actually be able to get on it.

Fuck write-on. Who wants to stay after they finish 1L finals and do more work?

Bramwell wrote:

Coolgrnmen wrote:Did you know that by transferring to the school I did, not only did I save $10,000 per year, but I gained a better OCI, more interviews, and more prestige?"


Anyone want to chime in, objectively?

When you say that you gained a better OCI, were you able to actually land a summer job at Boston OCI? I suppose as top 20%, you would be barred from interviewing with most OCI interviewers at NYLS by virtue of the grade cut-off there. My understanding is that anything below 15% wont get an interview with the few large firms that come on campus. And in practice, the firms are only looking seriously at the top 5%.

I had three OCI interviews at BU, one call back at a firm in NYC. I should have an offer (or ding) by next week so I'll update you then.
All interviews I had were with firms that barred me from applying at NYLS because of grade cut-off

Just to summarize some of the discussion:

1) Get better professors, which cost money.
2) Have more clinics and journals - which also will cost money.
3) Give away scholarships - these cost money.
______________

4) Lower tuition so you take in less money.
5) (Have a smaller class, which pays less tuition, and thus gives you less money.) This wasn't in the original email. There's a chance the smaller class would lower expenses I guess, but maybe not enough.


Just a thought. Law schools are in an arms race that people sometimes forget. Why did UVA's tuition go up this year? In part because UM's did, and Berkley's, and whoever else's. If you want to keep up with the Jones's as far as facilities, activities, and professors you need to spend with them.