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Rising 2L at Notre Dame. Taking questions... others will probably join in.

One rule: Don't quote me, as I might want to delete things later.

Fire away.

1) How bad are employment prospects for ND grads? There was a rumor (probably read it on TLS) that even LR students were having trouble getting jobs.

2) Off of that question, how is BigLaw looking for ND? Are there more firms steadily coming back to OCI?

Thanks for starting this thread!

I second that. How is employment. I've been hearing that anything outside of T-14 is essentially nonexistent. Yet, this is probably the academic elitism evident on this forum....

joefow91 wrote:I second that. How is employment. I've been hearing that anything outside of T-14 is essentially nonexistent. Yet, this is probably the academic elitism evident on this forum....

It is almost certainly the academic elitism... ND is doing fine and, I dare say, better than its peer schools. I know several people on law review that just graduated... they all had jobs lined up... and all of those jobs were either clerkships or BigLaw.

For OCI, there are more firms coming than there were last year. Last year, TLS put the number at 39 unique firms, and this year, I'd put the number closer to 60. Given our law school size (about 171 in my class), and given that many of the firms hire multiple people (Jones Day, for example), that's actually pretty good.

(Before people start posting about how much better their school is doing, you must count UNIQUE firms. In other words, we have like twenty Bryan Cave offices interviewing, but I only counted that as one.)

I'd predict Top 1/3 will be competitive for BigLaw or Article III clerkships, which has historically been the case. But if you're not in Top 1/3, most of the firms at our OCI won't even look at you... so whereas you can get BigLaw as a median student at the so-called T-15, you probably can't at ND.

That said, the number of firms at OCI is also slightly misleading as a statistic. Because we are such a small law school, many firms don't even bother coming. For example, I'm from Missouri, and there is only one Missouri firm coming (Bryan Cave). This isn't the CSOs fault: it simply isn't worth the money for a firm to come interview one person (as I'm the only person from Missouri in my class). However, firms in Missouri have been VERY receptive to me, so odds are good that I can get a BigLaw job not from OCI.

Does Notre Dame hold any off campus "OCIs" as Minnesota does (or is planning to do) in San Francisco ? Thanks !

CanadianWolf wrote:Does Notre Dame hold any off campus "OCIs" as Minnesota does (or is planning to do) in San Francisco ? Thanks !

Not in San Francisco.

They survey the class and then decide where to hold them. This year, they are in NY, LA, and DC.

We call them OSIPs. The CSO is making a bigger deal out of them, as I expect all CSOs are. Especially for small law schools, these are an ideal solution.

As suggested by TAS, I'll take q's as well. To be fair, as for 2L employment, we're literally just about to find out.

Thanks guys. Anything you wished was mentioned in the "Insiders Guide" (if you remember) that wasn't? Feel like most of the standard questions you'd get here are already answered in that.

How's the social scene? Do folks make it to Chicago much?

I've lately wondered if looking for work in Chicago requires both good grades and an excuse for wanting to work in Chicago, or if South Bend is close enough that firms don't need any particular excuse (significant other, family ties, etc) other than good grades.

Any experience with the alumni? I'm living in Nashville right now and wouldn't mind coming back, but I also wouldn't mind returning home (Cincinnati) or even a place like Columbus... Or, of course, Chicago. I've heard the alumni are willing to bend over backward to help out.

I want (probably like a lot of ND students) BigLaw in Chicago or DC. From what I've seen with all the packets the admissions office sent us, plenty of BigLaw firms recruit from Chicago but not a lot in DC. Will this be a problem?

Also, what is everyone doing for their 1L summer?

chrisnashville wrote:Thanks guys. Anything you wished was mentioned in the "Insiders Guide" (if you remember) that wasn't? Feel like most of the standard questions you'd get here are already answered in that.

How's the social scene? Do folks make it to Chicago much?

I've lately wondered if looking for work in Chicago requires both good grades and an excuse for wanting to work in Chicago, or if South Bend is close enough that firms don't need any particular excuse (significant other, family ties, etc) other than good grades.

Any experience with the alumni? I'm living in Nashville right now and wouldn't mind coming back, but I also wouldn't mind returning home (Cincinnati) or even a place like Columbus... Or, of course, Chicago. I've heard the alumni are willing to bend over backward to help out.

As far as ties to Chicago, I think it might help to have them, but a lot of people choose ND because of its proximity to Chicago thinking that they want to work there, so I don't know how important they will be. I am bidding on most Chicago firms and I don't have real ties other than that I've been at ND for 4 years and have been to Chicago many times since then.

The alumni network is great, I've heard of many people in the 1L market get jobs specifically based on the alumni network (me included). Cincy and Columbus have several firms coming for OCI, and both are very possible with Ohio ties. There are a lot of ND alums in Cincy, both undergrad and NDLS, that I can't imagine it would be too difficult finding something with ties and competitive grades.

flourish wrote:I want (probably like a lot of ND students) BigLaw in Chicago or DC. From what I've seen with all the packets the admissions office sent us, plenty of BigLaw firms recruit from Chicago but not a lot in DC. Will this be a problem?

Also, what is everyone doing for their 1L summer?

DC is super tough for everyone. We have (someone correct me if I'm wrong) 2 firms coming to OCI from DC. I wouldn't bank on it, but if you're in/around the top 10% you should mass mail DC and hope to pick up some interviews. Chicago we have pretty much everyone coming except for Mayer, and if the market picks up more then they may be back soon.

chrisnashville wrote:Thanks guys. Anything you wished was mentioned in the "Insiders Guide" (if you remember) that wasn't? Feel like most of the standard questions you'd get here are already answered in that.

How's the social scene? Do folks make it to Chicago much?

I've lately wondered if looking for work in Chicago requires both good grades and an excuse for wanting to work in Chicago, or if South Bend is close enough that firms don't need any particular excuse (significant other, family ties, etc) other than good grades.

Any experience with the alumni? I'm living in Nashville right now and wouldn't mind coming back, but I also wouldn't mind returning home (Cincinnati) or even a place like Columbus... Or, of course, Chicago. I've heard the alumni are willing to bend over backward to help out.

The alumni are awesome. I echo the comments above. Even the non-law alumni (who went to another law school) can be quite helpful.

I'm not sure about the Chicago question, but ndirish2010's answer seems right on.

In terms of social life, I think South Bend has a pretty good social scene... it is pretty typical of a midwestern college town. I go to Chicago at least once every couple of months. The South Shore Line runs from the airport (about ten minutes from campus) to Chicago and only costs ten bucks.

flourish wrote:I want (probably like a lot of ND students) BigLaw in Chicago or DC. From what I've seen with all the packets the admissions office sent us, plenty of BigLaw firms recruit from Chicago but not a lot in DC. Will this be a problem?

Also, what is everyone doing for their 1L summer?

DC is tough for everybody. We don't have a lot of students from DC, so I think it is primarily a matter of self-selection. We don't have many firms coming from DC, but we do hold off-site interviews (OSIP) there.

I'm interning with a federal court of appeals this summer. I was offered a job at the SEC, but I turned it down for the COA. We get $4,000 for unpaid summer work, so that is a nice benefit. Most of my friends work for federal judges. I have a couple with firm jobs, and a few with prosecutor's offices, but I think federal judges are the vast majority (at least for my group of friends).

The non law alumni can actually be more helpful since they have more of a sense of loyalty to the school...double domers are the best though.

As far as 1L summer goes, I'm working for a state court of appeals in the midwest.

Let's all be honest with each other - the social scene is garbarge. I stayed in South Bend only one weekend between February and the April finals grind.

bruinsbaseball wrote:Let's all be honest with each other - the social scene is garbarge. I stayed in South Bend only one weekend between February and the April finals grind.

I love the Backer, even though it is a pit.

[Redacted]

bruinsbaseball wrote:Let's all be honest with each other - the social scene is garbarge. I stayed in South Bend only one weekend between February and the April finals grind.

And I go back every weekend during the summer. Some people need big cities, others don't.

The social scene is fine; the b-school kids are a lot of fun. Admittedly, you don't have a lot of locals that are around our age to hang out with (in contrast to an area like nyc) but "garbage" is not the term I would use.

Sorry for the random question, but can anyone speak to how orientation goes? Is it an all day thing, or do we end mid afternoon? I just need to know because my girlfriend is helping me move in and she needs to know when to book a flight back home

VY10 wrote:Sorry for the random question, but can anyone speak to how orientation goes? Is it an all day thing, or do we end mid afternoon? I just need to know because my girlfriend is helping me move in and she needs to know when to book a flight back home

The others can feel free to disagree, but it is very relaxed. Most of the events are optional... they don't take attendance or anything.

The first day - where you pick up materials - is just that. You walk to the law school and pick up materials. Nobody stayed around for their stupid dessert social.

The campus tour is helpful, and the stadium visit is awesome. Go to those. Last year, Dean Garnett's speech was inspiring, but the other ones kind of sucked.

It is more important to introduce yourself and familiarize yourself with campus. And do spend time with your girlfriend before 1L begins...

theantiscalia wrote:

VY10 wrote:Sorry for the random question, but can anyone speak to how orientation goes? Is it an all day thing, or do we end mid afternoon? I just need to know because my girlfriend is helping me move in and she needs to know when to book a flight back home

The others can feel free to disagree, but it is very relaxed. Most of the events are optional... they don't take attendance or anything.

The first day - where you pick up materials - is just that. You walk to the law school and pick up materials. Nobody stayed around for their stupid dessert social.

The campus tour is helpful, and the stadium visit is awesome. Go to those. Last year, Dean Garnett's speech was inspiring, but the other ones kind of sucked.

It is more important to introduce yourself and familiarize yourself with campus. And do spend time with your girlfriend before 1L begins...

As a Double Domer, I didn't find most of orientation to be too helpful. The stadium press box visit was good, but we had one of those during orientation for UG as well (not sure if incoming freshman have it, but us transfers did). Dean Garnett's speech was very good, however.

My memory of orientation was something like:

Thursday afternoon - drop by to pick up a packet, that was literally all
Friday morning - speeches from Deans, it ran a little long as such an event would tend to do. Visit the bookstore and tour campus
Friday afternoon - Optional service project. Most people seem to do it as it's a good way to meet some folks and I guess help people
Saturday afternoon - Reception at the stadium press box, pretty much the highlight

Is anyone thinking of transferring because of better prospects at T14, etc.? If so, why?

theantiscalia wrote:

joefow91 wrote:I second that. How is employment. I've been hearing that anything outside of T-14 is essentially nonexistent. Yet, this is probably the academic elitism evident on this forum....

It is almost certainly the academic elitism... ND is doing fine and, I dare say, better than its peer schools. I know several people on law review that just graduated... they all had jobs lined up... and all of those jobs were either clerkships or BigLaw.

For OCI, there are more firms coming than there were last year. Last year, TLS put the number at 39 unique firms, and this year, I'd put the number closer to 60. Given our law school size (about 171 in my class), and given that many of the firms hire multiple people (Jones Day, for example), that's actually pretty good.

(Before people start posting about how much better their school is doing, you must count UNIQUE firms. In other words, we have like twenty Bryan Cave offices interviewing, but I only counted that as one.)

I'd predict Top 1/3 will be competitive for BigLaw or Article III clerkships, which has historically been the case. But if you're not in Top 1/3, most of the firms at our OCI won't even look at you... so whereas you can get BigLaw as a median student at the so-called T-15, you probably can't at ND.

That said, the number of firms at OCI is also slightly misleading as a statistic. Because we are such a small law school, many firms don't even bother coming. For example, I'm from Missouri, and there is only one Missouri firm coming (Bryan Cave). This isn't the CSOs fault: it simply isn't worth the money for a firm to come interview one person (as I'm the only person from Missouri in my class). However, firms in Missouri have been VERY receptive to me, so odds are good that I can get a BigLaw job not from OCI.

You are overstating ND's employment a bit. Around half the 3L class that just graduated had jobs as of April; slightly over half had nothing lined up.

It is possible to get Big Law or a clerkship from top 1/3, but nowhere near 1/3 of my class (2012) got BigLaw jobs this summer. The number of people that are able to get big law or clerkships will probably be closer to 1/5 (many people would probably think that is optimistic).

Something to note regarding OCI: many firms that come will not hire anyone from ND. I think employment will probably increase this year, which will help you guys. But most firms are just hiring a few people right now but interviewing at a number of schools -- plus there will be people applying to the firms at schools the firm doesn't visit for OCI (like you sending stuff to firms in Missouri).

I do know several Law Review people who were shut out during OCI. I only know of 1 person I can think of that got more than 1 job offer through OCI; even most of the law review kids only got a couple interviews.

That being said: we are doing better than peer schools. I think the legal market's just worse than you realize.

So does Notre Dame's orientation not have any assignments/readings you have to do or mini class sessions?

Also, when do you find out your class schedule?

Thanks.