Top Law Schools

I'm having a super tough time making my decision with these two schools and would like some useful advice/opinions.

My pros are as follows:

Gonzaga: $2500/yr cheaper (slightly bigger scholarship), several friends attend, closer to home market (Utah), ranked higher.
Drake: Family lives in Iowa, I used to live there and love it, lower cost of living, good summer job placement with some connections, great faculty.

Cons:

Gonzaga: I hear it's a FROZEN market with a lot of grads getting jobs in Idaho with a lot of legwork, higher cost of living, no summer jobs.
Drake: Lower rank (3T), harder to make it back to Utah someday, more expensive, scholarship requires top 1/3 of class.

I know both are regional! I'm fine practicing in Iowa and eventually moving to practice in Utah once I'm established. I'm also fine practicing in WA or ID and then coming back to UT.

AND YOUR THOUGHTS ARE.....................?

They are both now T3, but I'd pick Gonzaga. It is cheaper and closer to the region you eventually want to work.

Thank you. I was leaning that direction, but still love Iowa. I'd love to hear someone else as well!

Both are rancid toilets which will leave you with mounds of debt and no job prospects. Of course you won't listen and will go anyway, however, now you can't bitch about not being warned.

And when my expensive, rancid toilet education is over I'll see you in the real world (not this TLS lala land that permits you to insult everyone without consequence) and show you that success is not determined in the slightest by educational institution. But thank you for the warning, as I'm sure it lifts a burden from your shoulders.

citrus2010 wrote: and show you that success is not determined in the slightest by educational institution.

Bad bad flame...quite unoriginal. Think of something more creative next time.

If you go to either, you're going to need a lot more than $ 0.02. And there's a "choosing a law school" forum; how much clearer does it need to be?

citrus2010 wrote:I'm having a super tough time making my decision with these two schools and would like some useful advice/opinions.

My pros are as follows:

Gonzaga: $2500/yr cheaper (slightly bigger scholarship), several friends attend, closer to home market (Utah), ranked higher.
Drake: Family lives in Iowa, I used to live there and love it, lower cost of living, good summer job placement with some connections, great faculty.

Cons:

Gonzaga: I hear it's a FROZEN market with a lot of grads getting jobs in Idaho with a lot of legwork, higher cost of living, no summer jobs.
Drake: Lower rank (3T), harder to make it back to Utah someday, more expensive, scholarship requires top 1/3 of class.

I know both are regional! I'm fine practicing in Iowa and eventually moving to practice in Utah once I'm established. I'm also fine practicing in WA or ID and then coming back to UT.

AND YOUR THOUGHTS ARE.....................?

Ah, TLS. Mention anything other than T1 and prepare to get ridiculed. TLS does offer some good, albeit harsh advice but you do need to keep it in perspective. I personally would have to agree that Drake and Gonzaga don't necessarily justify the debt. (But I'm just a 0L so others feel free to chime in. And I'm freaking out about equal debt at a T30 sooo....) If you have a decent scholarship, then that can change things but I wouldn't consider them otherwise. I certainly don't think they offer the kind of career prospects you'd want considering the cost of their education.

I can only speak to Drake as I'm not familiar with Gonzaga at all. Drake seems to have a good name in Des Moines but bear in mind that 1/3 of Iowa students stay in the state and Iowa is a T30 so you're facing some tough competition. I don't know a whole lot about Drake but it would definitely confine you to the Iowa market which you seem to be okay with. The difference in ranking isn't so much that I would pick one over the other because of that alone. I would go with whatever is cheapest as both have pros and cons for you.

With that said, I would still advise against attending either of these schools without a significant scholarship. Try a loan repayment calculator and see what your debt would end up looking like. That would help put this all into perspective.

The job market in Iowa is not nearly as tight as it is in Washington and being that Drake is in the capital city there are plenty of opportunities for internships and such. There really isn't going to be a difference in education, although Drake has a great legal clinic (number 2 in the country for practical training). Drake has been around for a very long time and has great support from the community but if your looking to go anywhere much further than Iowa don't expect a plethora of connections. It's all about where you'd want to live.

With that said I am partially biased because I just put my deposit in at Drake and I am a third legacy at the law school. I actually resented going to Drake at first but after looking a number of different schools Drake was just simply more impressive.

As a current Gonzaga 1L I must warn you think about your motivations for either school. It is better to hold off for a year for the "better school" than try to transfer from gonzaga.

1) curriculum change:
- rather than the traditional first year 5 doctrinal classes: civ pro, torts, contracts, crim law, property you take only 2 doctrinal classes your first semeseter: civ pro, torts and then 2nd semester you get the other 3. This means they cram the entire class into a semester but you only take it for one semester.

- what do they stick in the place you ask?
A stupid class called "perspectives" which is an undergrad level history/philosophy class - a total waste of time and money considering you're paying 15K a semester and this class eats up 3 cr.

2) the curve is brutal. Our curve is set at a 2.6-2.8 depending on the class. All classes are curved *LRW is slightly higher curve. This is bad b/c
- most internships won't look at applicants with GPAs lower than a 3.0

YOU LOSE YOUR SCHOLARSHIP IF YOU FALL BELOW A 2.7!!!!
yes I'll say it again
YOU LOSE ALL THE MONEY THEY PROMISE YOU IF YOU FALL BELOW A 2.7!!!
Since the curve is set here at least 50% will fall below this figure. Last year 60% fell below this threshold. Considering 90% of students get financial aid and scholarships this is a HUGE PERCENTAGE OF 2Ls w/o money!!!!

I wish 1) I had gone to Syracuse
2) I had waited and re-applied to my top choices
3) I never started here. It's a waste of money. I quit a job to move to this hell hole known as Spokan(istan).

Don't do it!!!!

Read Third Tier Reality.

citrus2010 wrote:And when my expensive, rancid toilet education is over I'll see you in the real world (not this TLS lala land that permits you to insult everyone without consequence)

Did you just just yesterday stumble upon the internet?

Just go to wherever's cheaper, but really, you should retake the LSAT and try to get into a school in Utah.

citrus2010 wrote:And when my expensive, rancid toilet education is over I'll see you in the real world (not this TLS lala land that permits you to insult everyone without consequence) and show you that success is not determined in the slightest by educational institution. But thank you for the warning, as I'm sure it lifts a burden from your shoulders.

I attend a west coast T1 with good grades. It's fun being interviewed by midlaw partners who went to schools like Willamette and Gonzaga and who then pass you up for Berkeley, UCLA, Georgetown students. Things ain't what they used to be...

Your flame, though unoriginal, is very well executed.

itialiancat wrote: I quit a job to move to this hell hole known as Spokan(istan).

Don't do it!!!!

My family prefers Spo-klahoma or Spo-compton.

I like Spokangeles, myself, though I do have a "Spokompton" t-shirt I got from Boo Radley's.

(Went to UG there)

Spokanistan is always a good one.

I have just laughed out loud repeatedly.
My attorney's intern just graduated from Gonzaga and ironically, the Bar passing rate was right up there with UW...they even beat out Seattle University this year. When I asked her what she thought of it, she droned on and on and on about how great it was, she loved the weather, etc. Yet, when I pressed for more details about 'what type of specialty she did', she said there is "none". She stated there is a slight business emphasis, but "I don't know anyone who took those". So if you want a 'basic' expensive law degree and then move the hell out asap after graduation, it sounds like the way to go.
Gonzaga has now also managed to claw its way into the T1 albeit at the bottom. Weather rocks, you have a phenomenal lake to waterski on and the bar scene is pretty happenin'

Downside: Spokane is really no different than some of the ghetto areas of LA, Oakland, Seattle, etc. you will have your elements of uneducated 'common' peeps to deal with, key is to avoid those areas like the plague...but you should be so busy studying your first year you won't bump into the unsavories anyway.
Furthermore, you get REDNECKS. Oh Yes! Bubba and Ellie Mae are alive and well in Spokane. They are real salt of the earth people who will give you the shirt off their back when you run out of money for falling below the 2.7 grade curve

LawLucy wrote:Yet, when I pressed for more details about 'what type of specialty she did', she said there is "none". She stated there is a slight business emphasis, but "I don't know anyone who took those".

"Specialties" or "Concentrations" can often be more of a liability than an asset. In a tight job market, one often fairs better by not pigeonholing themselves into an unmarketable specialty. The big example I can think of right now is Tax law. Corporate law has also faired poorly in recent years due to a lack of M&A deals.

LawLucy wrote:
I have just laughed out loud repeatedly.
My attorney's intern just graduated from Gonzaga and ironically, the Bar passing rate was right up there with UW...they even beat out Seattle University this year. When I asked her what she thought of it, she droned on and on and on about how great it was, she loved the weather, etc. Yet, when I pressed for more details about 'what type of specialty she did', she said there is "none". She stated there is a slight business emphasis, but "I don't know anyone who took those". So if you want a 'basic' expensive law degree and then move the hell out asap after graduation, it sounds like the way to go.
Gonzaga has now also managed to claw its way into the T1 albeit at the bottom. Weather rocks, you have a phenomenal lake to waterski on and the bar scene is pretty happenin'

Downside: Spokane is really no different than some of the ghetto areas of LA, Oakland, Seattle, etc. you will have your elements of uneducated 'common' peeps to deal with, key is to avoid those areas like the plague...but you should be so busy studying your first year you won't bump into the unsavories anyway.
Furthermore, you get REDNECKS. Oh Yes! Bubba and Ellie Mae are alive and well in Spokane. They are real salt of the earth people who will give you the shirt off their back when you run out of money for falling below the 2.7 grade curve

Whether you'll like the weather in Spokane is based on personal taste. I grew up in eastern WA, so I was pretty used to it, but anybody considering the place should know that it regularly dips into the negatives for a week or two in winter. Every couple of years a cold snap will drag the temp 20-30 below, and then there's the wind. But that's usually short-lived, and if you're into snow sports it's a great location. The summers are hot as hell -- again, for a week or two you'll be steadily above 100 -- but it's not at all humid.

Spokane's culture is very odd. You definitely do have the eastern WA rednecks, the low-income areas, and a very large Slavic-speaking contingent. But a lot of young, progressive people in the area are working hard to make Spokane a cool place to be, and they're doing a pretty fair job of it.

All of this information assumes that you have resigned yourself to what I assume are abysmal employment rates after graduation.

clintonius wrote: I grew up in eastern WA, so I was pretty used to it, but anybody considering the place should know that it regularly dips into the negatives for a week or two in winter. Every couple of years a cold snap will drag the temp 20-30 below, and then there's the wind. But that's usually short-lived, and if you're into snow sports it's a great location. The summers are hot as hell -- again, for a week or two you'll be steadily above 100 -- but it's not at all humid.

^ Exactly.

I think it was the winter of 2008 that we set new records for the amount of snow that fell in December and then the entire winter. The snow berms in the street were as tall as I am in places. This is also why I'm attempting to escape.

However, the very next winter (2009) I don't think it snowed even once in the city.

Yeah, December 2008 was when Spokane got obliterated by snow. That was ridiculous.

Also, if the OP does choose GU, don't live in the Logan Neighborhood.