Top Law Schools

princess1 wrote:I heard from my friend who attends Chapman, that the school is expected to become a tier 2 school in the next year. Has anybody heard the same?

dcm81 wrote:Probably won't be tier 2 this year, but they will be close. Take any schools promises with a grain of salt because you never know what is going to happen with the USNews rankings. But they will probably move up. Next year is pretty likely though if they can get another .1 or .2 in peer rankings. I already discussed this in another thread about Chapman, but I have already shown they don't need to do much to get into the top 100. When you have New Mexico at 77 with worse students than Chapman, it really goes to show how much those BS peer review ratings work. But like I said, a slight change in their ratings, which have been going up, will go a long way in determining how soon they jump.

Also I disagree with the above post regarding Chapman being super conservative. They used to be but are moderate now. Their dean has left to pursue the, AG position, and Yoo no longer works there. Prof. Darmer and Rosenthal are two prime examples of professors there that lean hard to the left. In fact, most of their professors are liberal and aren't afraid to show it (I know because I live in OC, and have dealt with some of them in CLE seminars). Also, Yoo is actually known to be a good professor, despite how most on the left demonize the hell out of him. In the academic field, I think it is important to have diverse views presented, even that professor has made some very very controversial legal decisions[/b].

jks289 wrote:

dcm81 wrote:Probably won't be tier 2 this year, but they will be close. Take any schools promises with a grain of salt because you never know what is going to happen with the USNews rankings. But they will probably move up. Next year is pretty likely though if they can get another .1 or .2 in peer rankings. I already discussed this in another thread about Chapman, but I have already shown they don't need to do much to get into the top 100. When you have New Mexico at 77 with worse students than Chapman, it really goes to show how much those BS peer review ratings work. But like I said, a slight change in their ratings, which have been going up, will go a long way in determining how soon they jump.

Also I disagree with the above post regarding Chapman being super conservative. They used to be but are moderate now. Their dean has left to pursue the, AG position, and Yoo no longer works there. Prof. Darmer and Rosenthal are two prime examples of professors there that lean hard to the left. In fact, most of their professors are liberal and aren't afraid to show it (I know because I live in OC, and have dealt with some of them in CLE seminars). Also, Yoo is actually known to be a good professor, despite how most on the left demonize the hell out of him. In the academic field, I think it is important to have diverse views presented, even that professor has made some very very controversial legal decisions[/b].

Demonized by the left? John Yoo is a war criminal who facilitated torturing human beings. That he would be allowed to instruct the individuals to whom the basic protection of the United States Constitution is entrusted is an abomination. Period. Should the school be able to shake the stench of Yoo and conservatism in the near future remains to be seen. My point was his employment didn't do Chapman favors in its peer reviews.

Any school that is so open and blatant it it's ranking whoredom should break the lower T2 eventually. At that level it is more about a willingness to outspend than anything.

jks289 wrote:

princess1 wrote:I heard from my friend who attends Chapman, that the school is expected to become a tier 2 school in the next year. Has anybody heard the same?

I have heard this again and again from Chapman people. I just don't buy it. So Cal is such a saturated market (UCLA, USC, Loyola, Chapman, USD, and a whole handful of 4th tiers like Western State and Jefferson). Chapman has lots of money, and is trying to build on its conservative reputation. But they just don't have quality students to back up the move. I think they are working as hard as possible to game the USNWR rankings, but that can't be sustained long term.

ETA: Also publicity moves like allowing John Yoo to teach doesn't speak highly of the school's integrity or interest in producing ethical professionals.

Philo38 wrote:

jks289 wrote:

dcm81 wrote:Probably won't be tier 2 this year, but they will be close. Take any schools promises with a grain of salt because you never know what is going to happen with the USNews rankings. But they will probably move up. Next year is pretty likely though if they can get another .1 or .2 in peer rankings. I already discussed this in another thread about Chapman, but I have already shown they don't need to do much to get into the top 100. When you have New Mexico at 77 with worse students than Chapman, it really goes to show how much those BS peer review ratings work. But like I said, a slight change in their ratings, which have been going up, will go a long way in determining how soon they jump.

Also I disagree with the above post regarding Chapman being super conservative. They used to be but are moderate now. Their dean has left to pursue the, AG position, and Yoo no longer works there. Prof. Darmer and Rosenthal are two prime examples of professors there that lean hard to the left. In fact, most of their professors are liberal and aren't afraid to show it (I know because I live in OC, and have dealt with some of them in CLE seminars). Also, Yoo is actually known to be a good professor, despite how most on the left demonize the hell out of him. In the academic field, I think it is important to have diverse views presented, even that professor has made some very very controversial legal decisions[/b].

Demonized by the left? John Yoo is a war criminal who facilitated torturing human beings. That he would be allowed to instruct the individuals to whom the basic protection of the United States Constitution is entrusted is an abomination. Period. Should the school be able to shake the stench of Yoo and conservatism in the near future remains to be seen. My point was his employment didn't do Chapman favors in its peer reviews.

Any school that is so open and blatant it it's ranking whoredom should break the lower T2 eventually. At that level it is more about a willingness to outspend than anything.

I can't stand John Yoo, but the guy is brilliant and has an incredibly unique insider perspective. I can hardly think of anybody more valuable for young law students to be exposed to. Again, I found Yoo's OLC opinions to be deplorable, but this is the value of education, being exposed to radical and challanging views which provoke meaningful thought and convictions.

Plus Yoo isn't exactly some brutal authoritarian maniac. The guy has very well thought out legal reasoning for his interpretation of the constitution as promoting the expansion of executive power. Again, I can't stand it, but that's what colleges are for right? If we allow the run of the mill sweater wearing Marxists (who are becoming very boring) to teach in our universities, we should welcome thier opposite. It's only in that discord that the students will really be challanged.

jks289 wrote:

Philo38 wrote:

jks289 wrote:

dcm81 wrote:Probably won't be tier 2 this year, but they will be close. Take any schools promises with a grain of salt because you never know what is going to happen with the USNews rankings. But they will probably move up. Next year is pretty likely though if they can get another .1 or .2 in peer rankings. I already discussed this in another thread about Chapman, but I have already shown they don't need to do much to get into the top 100. When you have New Mexico at 77 with worse students than Chapman, it really goes to show how much those BS peer review ratings work. But like I said, a slight change in their ratings, which have been going up, will go a long way in determining how soon they jump.

Also I disagree with the above post regarding Chapman being super conservative. They used to be but are moderate now. Their dean has left to pursue the, AG position, and Yoo no longer works there. Prof. Darmer and Rosenthal are two prime examples of professors there that lean hard to the left. In fact, most of their professors are liberal and aren't afraid to show it (I know because I live in OC, and have dealt with some of them in CLE seminars). Also, Yoo is actually known to be a good professor, despite how most on the left demonize the hell out of him. In the academic field, I think it is important to have diverse views presented, even that professor has made some very very controversial legal decisions[/b].

Demonized by the left? John Yoo is a war criminal who facilitated torturing human beings. That he would be allowed to instruct the individuals to whom the basic protection of the United States Constitution is entrusted is an abomination. Period. Should the school be able to shake the stench of Yoo and conservatism in the near future remains to be seen. My point was his employment didn't do Chapman favors in its peer reviews.

Any school that is so open and blatant it it's ranking whoredom should break the lower T2 eventually. At that level it is more about a willingness to outspend than anything.

I can't stand John Yoo, but the guy is brilliant and has an incredibly unique insider perspective. I can hardly think of anybody more valuable for young law students to be exposed to. Again, I found Yoo's OLC opinions to be deplorable, but this is the value of education, being exposed to radical and challanging views which provoke meaningful thought and convictions.

Plus Yoo isn't exactly some brutal authoritarian maniac. The guy has very well thought out legal reasoning for his interpretation of the constitution as promoting the expansion of executive power. Again, I can't stand it, but that's what colleges are for right? If we allow the run of the mill sweater wearing Marxists (who are becoming very boring) to teach in our universities, we should welcome thier opposite. It's only in that discord that the students will really be challanged.

There are plenty of conservatives who would be an asset to a law school and provide the balance you are speaking of (Ted Olson, comes to mind and even Ken Starr, who is vile). John Yoo isn't one of them. He didn't lay out solid legal reasoning; he manipulated a perverse constitutional interpretation and ignored known precedent to justify a clearly illegal act. That is a breach of his duty as an officer of the court, and if we don't hold our law professors to the same ethical standards as practitioners (and this goes for liberals and conservatives) then the future of the legal profession will be a bleak one.

Great Satchmo wrote:Does it really matter if they are T2 vs. T3, at least in the time that you will be a student and then get your first job?

Probably not.

dcm81 wrote:Another problem I have with demonizing Chapman about Yoo is that he teaches at Berkeley. So I have a hard time seeing some people are trying to demonize Chapman as a "conservative" school when Yoo is tenured at Berkeley.

jks289 wrote:

dcm81 wrote:Another problem I have with demonizing Chapman about Yoo is that he teaches at Berkeley. So I have a hard time seeing some people are trying to demonize Chapman as a "conservative" school when Yoo is tenured at Berkeley.

Yoo left under pressure from Berkeley and Chapman allowed him to come AFTER the memos were published. It remains to be seen if he returns to Boalt, though students and professor have said they will protest.

My point wasn't really about Yoo. Besides, anyone who refers to "enhanced interrogation methods" has already shown themselves incapable of a reasonable discussion on the issue (I can watch Bill O'Reilly myself, thanks). My point was the perception of the decision to let him come teach and how that will affect the peer reviews of Chapman for USNWR. My guess is unfavorably. But we'll see.

kings84_wr wrote:

jks289 wrote:

dcm81 wrote:Another problem I have with demonizing Chapman about Yoo is that he teaches at Berkeley. So I have a hard time seeing some people are trying to demonize Chapman as a "conservative" school when Yoo is tenured at Berkeley.

Yoo left under pressure from Berkeley and Chapman allowed him to come AFTER the memos were published. It remains to be seen if he returns to Boalt, though students and professor have said they will protest.

My point wasn't really about Yoo. Besides, anyone who refers to "enhanced interrogation methods" has already shown themselves incapable of a reasonable discussion on the issue (I can watch Bill O'Reilly myself, thanks). My point was the perception of the decision to let him come teach and how that will affect the peer reviews of Chapman for USNWR. My guess is unfavorably. But we'll see.

Chapman isn't gonna get bad peer reviews for having Yoo come as a visiting prof.

and Im like 99 % sure that Yoo taught last fall and currently at Berkeley. The tenure system is a bitch.

vanwinkle wrote:

Great Satchmo wrote:Does it really matter if they are T2 vs. T3, at least in the time that you will be a student and then get your first job?

Probably not.

TITCR. /thread

dcm81 wrote:Peer review scores are backward looking and benefit schools that have been around for a long time. And these scores are notoriously suspect. For example, undergrad Clemson was caught rating their school a 4/5 and other really good rival schools a 2. Same goes with law schools. What incentive does the Loyola dean have in rating Chapman a 3 instead of a 1? Loyola, Pepperdine, and USD all have an incentive to keep Chapman down. I think USNews should publicize the ratings that deans/professors provide to them so that we can all know whats going on and who is gaming the reputation ratings. Chapman happens to be one the most egregious casualties of the ranking games. Because Chapman does not deserve a 1.9 peer reputation score with the kind of caliber of faculty and students they have. They probably should be in the 2.4-2.6 range, but hey im not the one rating schools.

ruleser wrote:

vanwinkle wrote:

Great Satchmo wrote:Does it really matter if they are T2 vs. T3, at least in the time that you will be a student and then get your first job?

Probably not.

TITCR. /thread

+2

twert wrote:they are offering me a generous scholarship and i'm considering it, but their ambitious rankings-gaming is a bit of a turn off. it seems insecure to me.

jks289 wrote:

Philo38 wrote:

jks289 wrote:

dcm81 wrote:Probably won't be tier 2 this year, but they will be close. Take any schools promises with a grain of salt because you never know what is going to happen with the USNews rankings. But they will probably move up. Next year is pretty likely though if they can get another .1 or .2 in peer rankings. I already discussed this in another thread about Chapman, but I have already shown they don't need to do much to get into the top 100. When you have New Mexico at 77 with worse students than Chapman, it really goes to show how much those BS peer review ratings work. But like I said, a slight change in their ratings, which have been going up, will go a long way in determining how soon they jump.

Also I disagree with the above post regarding Chapman being super conservative. They used to be but are moderate now. Their dean has left to pursue the, AG position, and Yoo no longer works there. Prof. Darmer and Rosenthal are two prime examples of professors there that lean hard to the left. In fact, most of their professors are liberal and aren't afraid to show it (I know because I live in OC, and have dealt with some of them in CLE seminars). Also, Yoo is actually known to be a good professor, despite how most on the left demonize the hell out of him. In the academic field, I think it is important to have diverse views presented, even that professor has made some very very controversial legal decisions[/b].

Demonized by the left? John Yoo is a war criminal who facilitated torturing human beings. That he would be allowed to instruct the individuals to whom the basic protection of the United States Constitution is entrusted is an abomination. Period. Should the school be able to shake the stench of Yoo and conservatism in the near future remains to be seen. My point was his employment didn't do Chapman favors in its peer reviews.

Any school that is so open and blatant it it's ranking whoredom should break the lower T2 eventually. At that level it is more about a willingness to outspend than anything.

I can't stand John Yoo, but the guy is brilliant and has an incredibly unique insider perspective. I can hardly think of anybody more valuable for young law students to be exposed to. Again, I found Yoo's OLC opinions to be deplorable, but this is the value of education, being exposed to radical and challanging views which provoke meaningful thought and convictions.

Plus Yoo isn't exactly some brutal authoritarian maniac. The guy has very well thought out legal reasoning for his interpretation of the constitution as promoting the expansion of executive power. Again, I can't stand it, but that's what colleges are for right? If we allow the run of the mill sweater wearing Marxists (who are becoming very boring) to teach in our universities, we should welcome thier opposite. It's only in that discord that the students will really be challanged.

There are plenty of conservatives who would be an asset to a law school and provide the balance you are speaking of (Ted Olson, comes to mind and even Ken Starr, who is vile). John Yoo isn't one of them. He didn't lay out solid legal reasoning; he manipulated a perverse constitutional interpretation and ignored known precedent to justify a clearly illegal act. That is a breach of his duty as an officer of the court, and if we don't hold our law professors to the same ethical standards as practitioners (and this goes for liberals and conservatives) then the future of the legal profession will be a bleak one.