Michigan 1Ls/2Ls/3Ls taking questions Forum

[aladdinismyprince]

Hi all, just got accepted! Super excited. Anyone here who deferred a year? if so, did they let you roll over any scholrship you were offered? Thanks!!

Edit: another question, is it necessary or even preferable to have a car at mich? Or can one go the three years without it? Thanks!

Don't know the answer to your first question but...

I like having my car, but I also don't like having to catch a ride and when it comes to carpooling, I prefer to be the driver, not the passenger. I think it's doable to go three years w/o a car though. There's uber and lyft here and, like I said, people carpool a lot. Lawopen (the LS listserv) will have messages of ppl offering/asking for rides to a variety of places (mainly Chicago, Detroit, the airport) and if orgs are doing some sort of outing that's farther away, they usually organize a carpool.

I definitely would recommend a car. Michiganders like to drive, and all cities in this state (Ann Arbor) included were built for driving.

Can you absolutely survive without a car? Sure. As the above poster said, people carpool and you can uber/lyft. Your student ID will get you on the buses for free, but I found them very slow and fairly infrequent. I mostly would want a car for grocery shopping purposes. Trader Joes and Meijer are both a drive a way.

[pbsdotcom]

Hi all, just got accepted! Super excited. Anyone here who deferred a year? if so, did they let you roll over any scholrship you were offered? Thanks!!

Edit: another question, is it necessary or even preferable to have a car at mich? Or can one go the three years without it? Thanks!

Don't know the answer to your first question but...

I like having my car, but I also don't like having to catch a ride and when it comes to carpooling, I prefer to be the driver, not the passenger. I think it's doable to go three years w/o a car though. There's uber and lyft here and, like I said, people carpool a lot. Lawopen (the LS listserv) will have messages of ppl offering/asking for rides to a variety of places (mainly Chicago, Detroit, the airport) and if orgs are doing some sort of outing that's farther away, they usually organize a carpool.

I definitely would recommend a car. Michiganders like to drive, and all cities in this state (Ann Arbor) included were built for driving.

Can you absolutely survive without a car? Sure. As the above poster said, people carpool and you can uber/lyft. Your student ID will get you on the buses for free, but I found them very slow and fairly infrequent. I mostly would want a car for grocery shopping purposes. Trader Joes and Meijer are both a drive a way.

Thank you both! Very helpful. Would you say you mostly use your car for grocery shopping and going to airport, etc, or do most people live diving distance from campus? Or do you usually walk to school?

[LawTweet]

Hi all, just got accepted! Super excited. Anyone here who deferred a year? if so, did they let you roll over any scholrship you were offered? Thanks!!

Edit: another question, is it necessary or even preferable to have a car at mich? Or can one go the three years without it? Thanks!

If you live in the Lawyers Club, you definitely do not need a car. I live there and have my car and only just filled up my gas tank for the first time all semester last week. I only take my car to get groceries that I don't really need since I'm on the meal plan. It's mostly a waste of money for me.

[deuceindc]

Hi all, just got accepted! Super excited. Anyone here who deferred a year? if so, did they let you roll over any scholrship you were offered? Thanks!!

Edit: another question, is it necessary or even preferable to have a car at mich? Or can one go the three years without it? Thanks!

I looked into deferring, IIRC they lock in the aid but you aren't allowed to apply elsewhere. Just talk to someone in admissions (Joe Pollack and Mark Jefferson are both great if you haven't already talked to anyone).

A car is useful, mostly for groceries. There aren't any grocery stores within walking distance of campus (the Walgreens has, like, milk and cereal but that's it.) You can get by with ZipCar, Lyft, and public transportation, but a car is really helpful. Discount accordingly if you live in the LC.

Two questions:

1. What website do people in A2 use for housing? Hotpads? Padmapper? Trulia? Something else?

2. Where's good for living? My husband and I are both 30 and we would like to live near other older law students if possible, but if not, *away* from undergrads would be fine. We're old farts and we sleep early.

Thank you guys so much!

I used Craigslist and Padmapper. Re: neighborhoods, I'd look west of campus, between State and Main. There are plenty of houses (and house-shares) in quiet-ish neighborhoods within walking distance from campus. PM me if you have questions about specifics.

[ChutzpahSaxa15]

Recently accepted and I have a couple of Q's. Michigan is definitely one of my top choices at this point.

1) Other than the weather / normal stresses that would occur at any law school, are there things that many people DON'T like about Michigan? For instance, how helpful/timely is the administration?
2) How big are the 1L classes actually? I've seen different answers on different sites.
3) Is it easy for Michigan folks who want to go into PI/govt work in DC to get those jobs? Compared with a school like GULC, for example.
4) Is there an overall PI-vibe at the school? I've heard that in general more people at Mich are interested in PI than at other schools.

[sui_juris]

Recently accepted and I have a couple of Q's. Michigan is definitely one of my top choices at this point.

1) Other than the weather / normal stresses that would occur at any law school, are there things that many people DON'T like about Michigan? For instance, how helpful/timely is the administration?
2) How big are the 1L classes actually? I've seen different answers on different sites.
3) Is it easy for Michigan folks who want to go into PI/govt work in DC to get those jobs? Compared with a school like GULC, for example.
4) Is there an overall PI-vibe at the school? I've heard that in general more people at Mich are interested in PI than at other schools.

Congrats on accepting! Here are my thoughts. I also was a PI student, so feel free to PM me if you want more specific answers.

(1) The things I didn't like about Michigan largely had to do with Ann Arbor. It's possible, but significantly more difficult, to live in AA without a car. AA is not a big city, so there isn't as much to do (although, there is a lot more to do than you would expect of a city that size).

I didn't think that the administration was that effective. They pretend to care, and will respond quickly to complaints or issues, but then won't actually do anything. Don't really want to go into specifics, but you can PM if you want.

Also, they tout Michigan's LRAP program as this amazing way to avoid paying student loans while doing public interest, but once you graduate, the LRAP program attempts to nickel and dime you. They have so many ways of wiggling their way out of actually paying you. (For example, if you don't turn in all of the documents by the required due date, you can't get your money for the next year no matter what - they don't make exceptions - but then they also refuse to confirm that they received all of the documents. Last year, they "lost" a bunch of paperwork and those people got screwed. They calculate what they will pay you based on your current job salary, rather than your last year's taxes - which is how the federal government calculates your loan payment - which means there are certain instances in which MI will underpay you.) Basically, don't count on LRAP actually helping, because it may not.

(2) Your "larger" 1L classes are about 80-90 people. You'll have one class each semester that is half that size, and then your legal practice (legal writing/research) class will be 1/4 the size.

(3) Anecdotally, a large portion of my friends who went into PI ended up in DC. It's hard (but not impossible) to get an entry-level PI job straight out of law school, so for some reason, Michigan places a lot of people in DC-based clerkships (like "state" level clerkships at the DC trial court and Court of Appeals). People then leverage that experience to get PI jobs.

(4) My opinion is that Michigan has an incredibly strong PI community, second probably only to NYU. I mean, most people at Michigan are going into firm/corporate jobs, but a sizeable number of people do PI. We have lots of student groups devoted to PI - OPIS (Organization of Public Interest Students) has a mentoring program and hosts a large job fair geared towards 1Ls; the Criminal Law Society (historically, the group for wannabe prosecutors); and a public defender organization (whose name I don't know). My recollection is that there are a good number of professors who were former public defenders, so the PD community is especially strong.

Hope that helps!

[brinicolec]

Recently accepted and I have a couple of Q's. Michigan is definitely one of my top choices at this point.

1) Other than the weather / normal stresses that would occur at any law school, are there things that many people DON'T like about Michigan? For instance, how helpful/timely is the administration?
2) How big are the 1L classes actually? I've seen different answers on different sites.
3) Is it easy for Michigan folks who want to go into PI/govt work in DC to get those jobs? Compared with a school like GULC, for example.
4) Is there an overall PI-vibe at the school? I've heard that in general more people at Mich are interested in PI than at other schools.

Congrats on accepting! Here are my thoughts. I also was a PI student, so feel free to PM me if you want more specific answers.

(1) The things I didn't like about Michigan largely had to do with Ann Arbor. It's possible, but significantly more difficult, to live in AA without a car. AA is not a big city, so there isn't as much to do (although, there is a lot more to do than you would expect of a city that size).

I didn't think that the administration was that effective. They pretend to care, and will respond quickly to complaints or issues, but then won't actually do anything. Don't really want to go into specifics, but you can PM if you want.

Also, they tout Michigan's LRAP program as this amazing way to avoid paying student loans while doing public interest, but once you graduate, the LRAP program attempts to nickel and dime you. They have so many ways of wiggling their way out of actually paying you. (For example, if you don't turn in all of the documents by the required due date, you can't get your money for the next year no matter what - they don't make exceptions - but then they also refuse to confirm that they received all of the documents. Last year, they "lost" a bunch of paperwork and those people got screwed. They calculate what they will pay you based on your current job salary, rather than your last year's taxes - which is how the federal government calculates your loan payment - which means there are certain instances in which MI will underpay you.) Basically, don't count on LRAP actually helping, because it may not.

(2) Your "larger" 1L classes are about 80-90 people. You'll have one class each semester that is half that size, and then your legal practice (legal writing/research) class will be 1/4 the size.

(3) Anecdotally, a large portion of my friends who went into PI ended up in DC. It's hard (but not impossible) to get an entry-level PI job straight out of law school, so for some reason, Michigan places a lot of people in DC-based clerkships (like "state" level clerkships at the DC trial court and Court of Appeals). People then leverage that experience to get PI jobs.

(4) My opinion is that Michigan has an incredibly strong PI community, second probably only to NYU. I mean, most people at Michigan are going into firm/corporate jobs, but a sizeable number of people do PI. We have lots of student groups devoted to PI - OPIS (Organization of Public Interest Students) has a mentoring program and hosts a large job fair geared towards 1Ls; the Criminal Law Society (historically, the group for wannabe prosecutors); and a public defender organization (whose name I don't know). My recollection is that there are a good number of professors who were former public defenders, so the PD community is especially strong.

Hope that helps!

I'm not really PI and I think the above poster gave some pretty solid answers for that so I'll just answer the first question:

My complaints are mostly about Ann Arbor. I have two things I strongly dislike about Ann Arbor.

1) The night life. I find it very boring and I hate the music everywhere. I can't figure out where the black people are... They might just not be anywhere because the diversity numbers for the undergrad university are also pretty weak and I've heard the black students don't have a strong community... but I miss being able to be surrounded by my people.
2) The housing market. I'm assuming it's tied to the whole "college town" thing; however, I find the housing here to be worse than the housing at the college town I lived in for undergrad so idk. A lot of the housing is... very barebones and sometimes even just kinda gross, but still overpriced. They have some new luxury apartments they've built recently/are building, but they're also crazy overpriced (like 1500 for a studio apartment, which is ridiculous, and an additional couple hundred/mo for parking). I have difficulty justifying paying that much for this location, but I also have difficulty living in a place that is literally falling apart. Living in the Lawyer's Club would solve this issue - but I have a pet (& a car) so I can't live there.

The only other thing would be that some of the students here are less than tolerable, but I'm sure that's a thing at every law school. I think there are more students here that are nice/helpful/whatever else than at a lot of other law schools though (from what I've heard about some other top schools), so it's not too bad.

[michigan_yooper]

I'm starting at Michigan Law for the Fall semester and have a few questions.

How fast are courses completely filled up once the add/drop period commences? Should I plan to be ready at 8am on my laptop come the first registration day?

I have a tentative schedule for my L1 classes, thoughts on these classes/professors?

Con Law - Primus

Legal Practice - Vettorello

Contracts - Cornell

Also, Civil Procedures with a TBD instructor. It was the only one that fit my schedule.

[Iwanttolawschool]

I'm starting at Michigan Law for the Fall semester and have a few questions.

How fast are courses completely filled up once the add/drop period commences? Should I plan to be ready at 8am on my laptop come the first registration day?

I have a tentative schedule for my L1 classes, thoughts on these classes/professors?

Con Law - Primus

Legal Practice - Vettorello

Contracts - Cornell

Also, Civil Procedures with a TBD instructor. It was the only one that fit my schedule.

You don't get to pick your first semester 1L classes. You are assigned to a "super section" and you share the same classes with the same people.

[wbwhitman]

Not sure if anyone has any questions, but I'm a Michigan student just wrapping up my 1L year and happy to answer a few with my newfound extra time.

[QContinuum]

Not sure if anyone has any questions, but I'm a Michigan student just wrapping up my 1L year and happy to answer a few with my newfound extra time.

Congrats on finishing 1L!

Based on Michigan's published ABA employment stats, its placement rate into BigLaw and federal clerkships, taken together, lags the other T13s. Maybe you can't speak to this but have you seen data/heard from upperclassmen about whether this reflects actual (relative to the other T13s) weakness with Michigan's placement, or if students are actually voluntarily selecting out of BigLaw? (At a "typical" T13 probably at least 10% of students are "diehard" PI, so it'd be interesting to hear whether the proportion is significantly higher at Mich.)

[Sawtooth]

Not sure if anyone has any questions, but I'm a Michigan student just wrapping up my 1L year and happy to answer a few with my newfound extra time.

Congrats on finishing 1L!

Based on Michigan's published ABA employment stats, its placement rate into BigLaw and federal clerkships, taken together, lags the other T13s. Maybe you can't speak to this but have you seen data/heard from upperclassmen about whether this reflects actual (relative to the other T13s) weakness with Michigan's placement, or if students are actually voluntarily selecting out of BigLaw? (At a "typical" T13 probably at least 10% of students are "diehard" PI, so it'd be interesting to hear whether the proportion is significantly higher at Mich.)

I know this question was addressed to a different poster, but I just graduated from Michigan and also have a lot of free time since my bar has been postponed.

I want to push back on the premise of the question a little. Michigan's 2018 BigLaw + Fed Clerk percentage (according to LST) is 67.7%, basically exactly the same as Berkeley's. So I don't think it is quite fair to say that Michigan "lags the other T13s." Also, to the degree that Michigan's BigLaw + Fed Clerk placement does lag schools like Northwestern, Duke, and NYU, we are talking about about a roughly 7% difference, which translates into a relatively small handful of kids.

I think that gap is explained by two factors. One, Michigan definitely has a large public-interest contingent. Plenty of my class mates did not do OCI. I am less familiar with public interest career paths, but it seems like Michigan sends (in comparison to T14 peers) a more significant number of people to state court clerkships, which I imagine provide more directly applicable experience to someone who wants to be a public defender or work in poverty law/legal aid. Two, antidotally I think Michigan attracts more students from smaller markets with interest in returning to those markets. I know classmates who certainly could have been very successful at OCI, but instead choose to go back to the best local firms in places like Grand Rapids of Des Moines.

I remember feeling a little spooked as a 0L about Michigan while reading TLS posts that push the "Michigan lags in BigLaw placement" narrative, but I really do think that to whatever degree that is true, it is wholly due to self-selection. I don't think any federal judges or biglaw attorneys walk around thinking Michigan is somehow the little brother of the T13.

[QContinuum]

I remember feeling a little spooked as a 0L about Michigan while reading TLS posts that push the "Michigan lags in BigLaw placement" narrative, but I really do think that to whatever degree that is true, it is wholly due to self-selection. I don't think any federal judges or biglaw attorneys walk around thinking Michigan is somehow the little brother of the T13.

Thanks for the above post. Very helpful. I have always believed that Michigan (like Berkeley) is not any weaker than its peer schools in placement power, but occasionally we see 0Ls who have a weird aversion to attending law school in Ann Arbor, and who seize upon Michigan's lower BigLaw placement, and then it's hard to rebut that data. Thanks for your thoughtful post reaffirming that Michigan doesn't at all place students at a disadvantage, BigLaw-wise, relative to its peer schools.

Also, CONGRATS on graduating!

[Sawtooth]

I remember feeling a little spooked as a 0L about Michigan while reading TLS posts that push the "Michigan lags in BigLaw placement" narrative, but I really do think that to whatever degree that is true, it is wholly due to self-selection. I don't think any federal judges or biglaw attorneys walk around thinking Michigan is somehow the little brother of the T13.

Thanks for the above post. Very helpful. I have always believed that Michigan (like Berkeley) is not any weaker than its peer schools in placement power, but occasionally we see 0Ls who have a weird aversion to attending law school in Ann Arbor, and who seize upon Michigan's lower BigLaw placement, and then it's hard to rebut that data. Thanks for your thoughtful post reaffirming that Michigan doesn't at all place students at a disadvantage, BigLaw-wise, relative to its peer schools.

Also, CONGRATS on graduating!

Thanks!!

While I'm at it, another related perception about Michigan I see on TLS occasionally that annoys me is the idea that Michigan students are at some kind of disadvantage for V10 NY shops, evidenced by the fact that some of those firms have fewer Michigan alums than peer schools. I have plenty of classmates who had offers at elite NY firms, and I also know plenty of people who had the grades to go to those firms but opted for other markets.

I don't get the aversion to Ann Arbor. I've loved it here, but I am also from a small town in a flyover state so its likely that I have a different perspective than those people.

[wbwhitman]

Thanks!!

While I'm at it, another related perception about Michigan I see on TLS occasionally that annoys me is the idea that Michigan students are at some kind of disadvantage for V10 NY shops, evidenced by the fact that some of those firms have fewer Michigan alums than peer schools. I have plenty of classmates who had offers at elite NY firms, and I also know plenty of people who had the grades to go to those firms but opted for other markets.

I don't get the aversion to Ann Arbor. I've loved it here, but I am also from a small town in a flyover state so its likely that I have a different perspective than those people.

I agree with Sawtooth wholeheartedly. I also think Michigan admin/career services does a great job supporting students in whatever their goals may be. I've heard of schools putting pressure on students to pursue certain paths that will help the school appear more prestigious, and I've seen no evidence of that at Michigan. It may be that our numbers are slightly different because students feel more comfortable in pursuing all sorts of careers.

[KPUSN07]

Hello all - I was recently accepted as a transfer student, but I am deferring the upcoming year due to military obligations. My main concern - where does a student with a family (wife and two kids + dog) live - areas surrounding Ann Arbor (Dexter, Chelsea?) - would primarily consider a house, although could possibly be swayed to a larger apt, nicer apt complex. Thanks for any suggestions (I have a year to figure out - but just curious on anecdotal feedback).

[Sawtooth]

Hello all - I was recently accepted as a transfer student, but I am deferring the upcoming year due to military obligations. My main concern - where does a student with a family (wife and two kids + dog) live - areas surrounding Ann Arbor (Dexter, Chelsea?) - would primarily consider a house, although could possibly be swayed to a larger apt, nicer apt complex. Thanks for any suggestions (I have a year to figure out - but just curious on anecdotal feedback).

Congrats! A lot of students with families live in the University's family housing (called "Northwood"). They are 2 or 3 bedroom townhouses with unfinished basements. They've been around for a while, so maybe not "nice," but for the space they are a pretty good deal in Ann Arbor. Electric/Gas/Internet/Cable all included, with bus service to central campus every ten minutes.

I know other students with families that have lived in houses in some of the surrounding (less expensive communities) and commuted into AA. I think you can get a free parking pass to park in athletic complex parking lot, and take a quick shuttle to the law school. Another interesting option would be the the Forrest Hills Co-op.

[KPUSN07]

Hello all - I was recently accepted as a transfer student, but I am deferring the upcoming year due to military obligations. My main concern - where does a student with a family (wife and two kids + dog) live - areas surrounding Ann Arbor (Dexter, Chelsea?) - would primarily consider a house, although could possibly be swayed to a larger apt, nicer apt complex. Thanks for any suggestions (I have a year to figure out - but just curious on anecdotal feedback).

Congrats! A lot of students with families live in the University's family housing (called "Northwood"). They are 2 or 3 bedroom townhouses with unfinished basements. They've been around for a while, so maybe not "nice," but for the space they are a pretty good deal in Ann Arbor. Electric/Gas/Internet/Cable all included, with bus service to central campus every ten minutes.

I know other students with families that have lived in houses in some of the surrounding (less expensive communities) and commuted into AA. I think you can get a free parking pass to park in athletic complex parking lot, and take a quick shuttle to the law school. Another interesting option would be the the Forrest Hills Co-op.

Very helpful and thank you! I think if anything we might live out in town - although this is next year anyways! I was just curious on living situations

[laanngo]

Hi all, just got accepted! Super excited. Anyone here who deferred a year? if so, did they let you roll over any scholrship you were offered? Thanks!!

Edit: another question, is it necessary or even preferable to have a car at mich? Or can one go the three years without it? Thanks!

Don't know the answer to your first question but...

I like having my car, but I also don't like having to catch a ride and when it comes to carpooling, I prefer to be the driver, not the passenger. I think it's doable to go three years w/o a car though. There's uber and lyft here and, like I said, people carpool a lot. Lawopen (the LS listserv) will have messages of ppl offering/asking for rides to a variety of places (mainly Chicago, Detroit, the airport) and if orgs are doing some sort of outing that's farther away, they usually organize a carpool.

I definitely would recommend a car. Michiganders like to drive, and all cities in this state (Ann Arbor) included were built for driving.

Can you absolutely survive without a car? Sure. As the above poster said, people carpool and you can uber/lyft. Your student ID will get you on the buses for free, but I found them very slow and fairly infrequent. I mostly would want a car for grocery shopping purposes. Trader Joes and Meijer are both a drive a way.

Any chance of commuter rail being built in the detroit-aa conurbanation soon?