Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc) Forum

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Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:37 am

Hello!

Choosing between Chicago and Columbia. Prefer NYC to Chicago and ultimately want to pursue litigation.

I know standard answer for clerkships is Chicago, but given that I am likely going to be involved with fed soc, how much does that counterbalance Columbia’s generally more difficult clerkship environment?

Any experiences from CLS students / alumni?

Thanks!

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:37 am
Hello!

Choosing between Chicago and Columbia. Prefer NYC to Chicago and ultimately want to pursue litigation.

I know standard answer for clerkships is Chicago, but given that I am likely going to be involved with fed soc, how much does that counterbalance Columbia’s generally more difficult clerkship environment?

Any experiences from CLS students / alumni?

Thanks!
You already know the answer to this question. Clerkship hiring, especially competitive clerkship hiring, hinges significantly on the resources your law school provides. The most important resource being connected professors. If clerkship hiring is the most important factor to you, this is a no brainer. Go to Chicago. But there's no shame in picking Columbia because you would rather live there. I didn't go to CLS, but I know plenty of fed soc CLS students who secured excellent fed COA clerkships.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:11 am

Because you prefer NYC to Chicago, I would go with CLS.

UChicago is better at clerkships, but clerkships aren't a final destination for your career. Also, I would argue that if you want to clerk in the Northeast and specifically the NYC area, Chicago's clerkship advantage is effectively neutralized relative to Columbia. Columbia students get SDNY/EDNY/2nd Circuit clerkships at a greater rate than UChicago students. The Columbia students who manage to get coveted clerkships are able to do so because they take initiative and don't rely on the school to help them. If that sounds like you, then go to CLS.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because you prefer NYC to Chicago, I would go with CLS.

UChicago is better at clerkships, but clerkships aren't a final destination for your career. Also, I would argue that if you want to clerk in the Northeast and specifically the NYC area, Chicago's clerkship advantage is effectively neutralized relative to Columbia. Columbia students get SDNY/EDNY/2nd Circuit clerkships at a greater rate than UChicago students. The Columbia students who manage to get coveted clerkships are able to do so because they take initiative and don't rely on the school to help them. If that sounds like you, then go to CLS.
There is no way to tell if this is correct. Selection bias etc all plays a part in where people end up or apply. What we do know, however, is that Chicago greatly out performs Columbia in clerkship placement. And more often than not, the people in Chicago's Fed Soc, esp E-Board members, end up with a COA clerkships.

If clerkships are your main focus, OP, it may be worth a temporary stay in Chicago. You will able to secure full-time employment in New York with ease after the fact.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm

Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm
Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.
Not really a fair comparison - at CLS they would NOT be own their own, they'd have fed soc. As another person posted, CLS fed soc members do well. I don't know the percentages but anecdotally it's true. Doesn't mean CLS is the right choice but comparing school wide outcomes is not as helpful here as it would be for most.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:39 pm

I know someone at CLS in Fed Soc. He did well, but you could tell there wasn't as much of a red carpet as someone who is equivalent to Kent at UChicago is. CLS Fed Soc is certaintly not non-existent though. That being said, I'd still bite the bullet and go to UChicago in your shoes.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by crazywafflez » Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:49 pm

Go to Columbia. Sounds like you'd prefer it and if you are with fedsoc it'll be fine. Fedsoc Columbia will do fine, lol. Don't worry. Go enjoy NYC.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:25 pm

Some Columbia Fed Soc students get federal clerkships, virtually all Chicago Fed Soc students get federal appellate clerkships and a substantial number get Supreme Court clerkships. If you’re ok with that difference, it sounds like Columbia is the right choice. If you’re not, Chicago is the right choice.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because you prefer NYC to Chicago, I would go with CLS.

UChicago is better at clerkships, but clerkships aren't a final destination for your career. Also, I would argue that if you want to clerk in the Northeast and specifically the NYC area, Chicago's clerkship advantage is effectively neutralized relative to Columbia. Columbia students get SDNY/EDNY/2nd Circuit clerkships at a greater rate than UChicago students. The Columbia students who manage to get coveted clerkships are able to do so because they take initiative and don't rely on the school to help them. If that sounds like you, then go to CLS.
There is no way to tell if this is correct. Selection bias etc all plays a part in where people end up or apply. What we do know, however, is that Chicago greatly out performs Columbia in clerkship placement. And more often than not, the people in Chicago's Fed Soc, esp E-Board members, end up with a COA clerkships.

If clerkships are your main focus, OP, it may be worth a temporary stay in Chicago. You will able to secure full-time employment in New York with ease after the fact.
Yes, I can attest that few Chicago students target SDNY. My judge’s chambers got probably five apps from Chicago and close to a hundred from CLS. I suspect that a combination of class year and geographic reasons make NDIL more attractive for Chicago students wanting a big-city complex-commercial clerkship experience.

As far as appellate judges go, I believe Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan hire a lot from CLS, but I don’t think Cabranes, Nardini, Park, or Menashi do all that much. Cabranes, Nardini, and Park are predominantly in the YLS network. Not sure about Raggi. Though I’d guess all of these judges have hired from both CLS and Chicago.
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm
Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.
UChicago is almost certainly easier to get a clerkship from, but CLS's eventual clerk rate is around 25%. Speaking as someone who struggled to get a clerkship on plan at CLS, all it took was a bit of diligence and I ended up with a district court and COA pretty easily as a 3L/alum.

EDIT: Also to the above, Park's wife teaches at Columbia, and he has definitely hired at least like 5 clerks over the past few years. Not sure how that compares to other law schools.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:52 pm

[youtube][/youtube]
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm
Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.
UChicago is almost certainly easier to get a clerkship from, but CLS's eventual clerk rate is around 25%. Speaking as someone who struggled to get a clerkship on plan at CLS, all it took was a bit of diligence and I ended up with a district court and COA pretty easily as a 3L/alum.

EDIT: Also to the above, Park's wife teaches at Columbia, and he has definitely hired at least like 5 clerks over the past few years. Not sure how that compares to other law schools.
that number sounds about right if most of his non-YLS clerks are from CLS, which wouldn’t surprise me given that both he and his wife teach there.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by lawschoollegend13245 » Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:23 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm
Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.
UChicago is almost certainly easier to get a clerkship from, but CLS's eventual clerk rate is around 25%. Speaking as someone who struggled to get a clerkship on plan at CLS, all it took was a bit of diligence and I ended up with a district court and COA pretty easily as a 3L/alum.

EDIT: Also to the above, Park's wife teaches at Columbia, and he has definitely hired at least like 5 clerks over the past few years. Not sure how that compares to other law schools.

Thanks all! Would you say there is an advantage to clerking straight out vs after working for a year or two? Understand a lot of prestigious SDNY / EDNY judges prefer work exp but if goal is lit boutique, is it better to just clerk (location agnostic) right after graduation?

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:11 pm

lawschoollegend13245 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm
Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.
UChicago is almost certainly easier to get a clerkship from, but CLS's eventual clerk rate is around 25%. Speaking as someone who struggled to get a clerkship on plan at CLS, all it took was a bit of diligence and I ended up with a district court and COA pretty easily as a 3L/alum.

EDIT: Also to the above, Park's wife teaches at Columbia, and he has definitely hired at least like 5 clerks over the past few years. Not sure how that compares to other law schools.

Thanks all! Would you say there is an advantage to clerking straight out vs after working for a year or two? Understand a lot of prestigious SDNY / EDNY judges prefer work exp but if goal is lit boutique, is it better to just clerk (location agnostic) right after graduation?
Honestly I'm of the opinion that clerking right after or clerking after one or two years at a firm is fairly interchangeable. Also i think clerking right after if your agnostic, especially for circuit is completely fine and normal. I clerked in a decently sized city for the Sixth Circuit and it was fun to live in a city I will never live in again. Honestly, I think my career would be exactly the same if I clerked for a non-feeder judge in New York. My judge was such a pleasure to work for—just a genuinely good person, SOOOOO happy I decided to go out of my comfort zone (location-wise) to clerk for them.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:11 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:11 pm
lawschoollegend13245 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:23 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:19 pm
Hmm go to the school with 28% clerkships or with 8% tough call.

It's also not just about numbers. The institutional support in Chicago is amazing. In CLS you'd be entirely on your own.
UChicago is almost certainly easier to get a clerkship from, but CLS's eventual clerk rate is around 25%. Speaking as someone who struggled to get a clerkship on plan at CLS, all it took was a bit of diligence and I ended up with a district court and COA pretty easily as a 3L/alum.

EDIT: Also to the above, Park's wife teaches at Columbia, and he has definitely hired at least like 5 clerks over the past few years. Not sure how that compares to other law schools.

Thanks all! Would you say there is an advantage to clerking straight out vs after working for a year or two? Understand a lot of prestigious SDNY / EDNY judges prefer work exp but if goal is lit boutique, is it better to just clerk (location agnostic) right after graduation?
Honestly I'm of the opinion that clerking right after or clerking after one or two years at a firm is fairly interchangeable. Also i think clerking right after if your agnostic, especially for circuit is completely fine and normal. I clerked in a decently sized city for the Sixth Circuit and it was fun to live in a city I will never live in again. Honestly, I think my career would be exactly the same if I clerked for a non-feeder judge in New York. My judge was such a pleasure to work for—just a genuinely good person, SOOOOO happy I decided to go out of my comfort zone (location-wise) to clerk for them.
Thanks for sharing! Also wanted to ask, as someone who pursed clerkships / litigation, were there other aspects of CLS that you really enjoyed as well? I really do want to attend CLS but it seems that on paper for this path Chicago might be provide an easier path so wanted to hear your take!

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:14 pm

How can a student due "diligence" for clerkships?

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:20 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 10:37 am
Hello!

Choosing between Chicago and Columbia. Prefer NYC to Chicago and ultimately want to pursue litigation.

I know standard answer for clerkships is Chicago, but given that I am likely going to be involved with fed soc, how much does that counterbalance Columbia’s generally more difficult clerkship environment?

Any experiences from CLS students / alumni?

Thanks!
I have friends in Fed Soc who went to both and I'd take Chicago if I were you unless you have real serious reasons to prefer NYC, like your significant other has an awesome job there or your family is there. Chicago is simply a way better place to be for a conservative. And it's not even close for clerkships here. If you are on the E-Board for Chicago Fed-Soc you will get a good clerkship. And if you crush it academically, a SCOTUS clerkship is a possibility. I know people will think it's ridiculous to bring that up to a 0L, but a few people from Chicago Fed Soc end up there every year, sure can't say the same for Columbia. Why do you prefer NYC? I lived in NYC for several years and always though it was an overly expensive, crowded dumpster.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by lavarman84 » Fri Apr 21, 2023 12:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 8:11 pm
lawschoollegend13245 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:23 pm
Thanks all! Would you say there is an advantage to clerking straight out vs after working for a year or two? Understand a lot of prestigious SDNY / EDNY judges prefer work exp but if goal is lit boutique, is it better to just clerk (location agnostic) right after graduation?
Honestly I'm of the opinion that clerking right after or clerking after one or two years at a firm is fairly interchangeable. Also i think clerking right after if your agnostic, especially for circuit is completely fine and normal. I clerked in a decently sized city for the Sixth Circuit and it was fun to live in a city I will never live in again. Honestly, I think my career would be exactly the same if I clerked for a non-feeder judge in New York. My judge was such a pleasure to work for—just a genuinely good person, SOOOOO happy I decided to go out of my comfort zone (location-wise) to clerk for them.
I'd say there is a benefit to doing it right out of law school if you can. If you're going to biglaw, you lose out on less money, and from what I head, your work tradeoff is better. What I mean by that is you get to focus on substantive work while clerking, whereas first-year associates do more grunt work. As you get more senior in biglaw, your ratio of grunt work to substantive work decreases (i.e., you're doing more substantive work and less grunt work). So by skipping your first year instead of a later year, you get to skip out on more of the grunt work.

But that's based on secondhand information, as I went the public interest route after SA'ing in biglaw. So if there are biglaw associates who disagree on the latter point, I defer to them.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:40 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:14 pm
How can a student due "diligence" for clerkships?
What do you mean? If you mean how can you know which judges are good experiences, the rumor mill, a good clerkship office (I.e. not CLS’s), and this forum are the best resources. Though assuming you’re OP I think every NYC-area Fed Soc clerkship is basically a good experience. Some will work you really hard (Cronan, Kovner, Sullivan), some are awkward (Kovner, Menashi), but there aren’t any sociopathic bosses or anything.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:14 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 12:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 11:11 am
Because you prefer NYC to Chicago, I would go with CLS.

UChicago is better at clerkships, but clerkships aren't a final destination for your career. Also, I would argue that if you want to clerk in the Northeast and specifically the NYC area, Chicago's clerkship advantage is effectively neutralized relative to Columbia. Columbia students get SDNY/EDNY/2nd Circuit clerkships at a greater rate than UChicago students. The Columbia students who manage to get coveted clerkships are able to do so because they take initiative and don't rely on the school to help them. If that sounds like you, then go to CLS.
There is no way to tell if this is correct. Selection bias etc all plays a part in where people end up or apply. What we do know, however, is that Chicago greatly out performs Columbia in clerkship placement. And more often than not, the people in Chicago's Fed Soc, esp E-Board members, end up with a COA clerkships.

If clerkships are your main focus, OP, it may be worth a temporary stay in Chicago. You will able to secure full-time employment in New York with ease after the fact.

Yes, I can attest that few Chicago students target SDNY. My judge’s chambers got probably five apps from Chicago and close to a hundred from CLS. I suspect that a combination of class year and geographic reasons make NDIL more attractive for Chicago students wanting a big-city complex-commercial clerkship experience.

As far as appellate judges go, I believe Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan hire a lot from CLS, but I don’t think Cabranes, Nardini, Park, or Menashi do all that much. Cabranes, Nardini, and Park are predominantly in the YLS network. Not sure about Raggi. Though I’d guess all of these judges have hired from both CLS and Chicago.
I know someone responded to this already in part but both Park & Menashi hire folks from CLS.

Park's wife works at CLS, and Menashi has co-taught a seminar.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:20 pm

Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:20 pm
Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.
Sure, but how do people at the top of their class at CLS and who are in fed soc do? I know one who went straight into the big shot feeder pipeline. That doesn't make CLS the right choice, but again, we can't ignore the power of fed soc here.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:20 pm
Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.
Again, don't dispute that Chicago is easier to get clerkships, but I don't know anyone at CLS who really wanted a clerkship that didn't get one. It's true that some struck out on the plan, but even the super weird students ended up with clerkships eventually.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:44 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:20 pm
Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.
Sure, but how do people at the top of their class at CLS and who are in fed soc do? I know one who went straight into the big shot feeder pipeline. That doesn't make CLS the right choice, but again, we can't ignore the power of fed soc here.
CLS is a much bigger school but mints far fewer SCOTUS clerks, especially since RBG, the only reliable CLS hirer, passed away. There’s not really a way to spin that. And Chicago’s SCOTUS placement is 90% on the right.

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Re: Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:09 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:44 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2023 10:20 pm
Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.
Sure, but how do people at the top of their class at CLS and who are in fed soc do? I know one who went straight into the big shot feeder pipeline. That doesn't make CLS the right choice, but again, we can't ignore the power of fed soc here.
CLS is a much bigger school but mints far fewer SCOTUS clerks, especially since RBG, the only reliable CLS hirer, passed away. There’s not really a way to spin that. And Chicago’s SCOTUS placement is 90% on the right.
Love the goalpost moving - from saying people strike out at CLS to comparing SCOTUS placement. I'm sure that's accurate and not something I was trying to spin. My argument is simply that people at CLS in fed sec can do very well. As well as at Chicago? Idk but not my point

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