Chicago or Columbia for Clerkship (fed soc) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.

Sure, but how do people at the top of their class at CLS and who are in fed soc do? I know one who went straight into the big shot feeder pipeline. That doesn't make CLS the right choice, but again, we can't ignore the power of fed soc here.

CLS is a much bigger school but mints far fewer SCOTUS clerks, especially since RBG, the only reliable CLS hirer, passed away. There’s not really a way to spin that. And Chicago’s SCOTUS placement is 90% on the right.

Love the goalpost moving - from saying people strike out at CLS to comparing SCOTUS placement. I'm sure that's accurate and not something I was trying to spin. My argument is simply that people at CLS in fed sec can do very well. As well as at Chicago? Idk but not my point

You’re responding to different anons, but good Fed Soc students at Chicago generally get SCOTUS, which is not true at CLS. That’s obviously relevant to how CLS Fed Soc students do.

[Anonymous User]

Chicago is 100% the right choice if you want a clerkship. I know people at the top of their class at Columbia who completely struck out on the clerkship process. Chicago is the third best school for clerkships after Yale and Stanford especially if you’re a conservative.

Sure, but how do people at the top of their class at CLS and who are in fed soc do? I know one who went straight into the big shot feeder pipeline. That doesn't make CLS the right choice, but again, we can't ignore the power of fed soc here.

CLS is a much bigger school but mints far fewer SCOTUS clerks, especially since RBG, the only reliable CLS hirer, passed away. There’s not really a way to spin that. And Chicago’s SCOTUS placement is 90% on the right.

Love the goalpost moving - from saying people strike out at CLS to comparing SCOTUS placement. I'm sure that's accurate and not something I was trying to spin. My argument is simply that people at CLS in fed sec can do very well. As well as at Chicago? Idk but not my point

You’re responding to different anons, but good Fed Soc students at Chicago generally get SCOTUS, which is not true at CLS. That’s obviously relevant to how CLS Fed Soc students do.

Word - fair enough! Again, not something I’m disputing, just pushing back on the notion of CLS as some black hole for wannabe clerks. Plenty of good data points here for OP to consider.

[Anonymous User]

As a federal COA clerk I would pretty much toss out any resume we received from Columbia unless there was something truly remarkable, which was hard to tell, as no one outside Columbia is readily familiar with the difference between a "Harlan Stone Scholar" and a "James Kent Scholar." Yet Columbia clerkship applicants would tout these titles as if they have any cache in the real world. Columbia also does not rank, which makes it impossible to tell who is a strong applicant.

Chicago has a better reputation overall. In addition to greater career prospects, you will get to avoid NYC.

[Anonymous User]

As a federal COA clerk I would pretty much toss out any resume we received from Columbia unless there was something truly remarkable, which was hard to tell, as no one outside Columbia is readily familiar with the difference between a "Harlan Stone Scholar" and a "James Kent Scholar." Yet Columbia clerkship applicants would tout these titles as if they have any cache in the real world. Columbia also does not rank, which makes it impossible to tell who is a strong applicant.

Chicago has a better reputation overall. In addition to greater career prospects, you will get to avoid NYC.

Your chambers can't figure out the difference between a Kent and Stone scholar, but are well versed in what a 179 and K&E scholar from Chicago are? UChicago also does not officially rank students either.

[Anonymous User]

As a federal COA clerk I would pretty much toss out any resume we received from Columbia unless there was something truly remarkable, which was hard to tell, as no one outside Columbia is readily familiar with the difference between a "Harlan Stone Scholar" and a "James Kent Scholar." Yet Columbia clerkship applicants would tout these titles as if they have any cache in the real world. Columbia also does not rank, which makes it impossible to tell who is a strong applicant.

Chicago has a better reputation overall. In addition to greater career prospects, you will get to avoid NYC.

Idk man I'm outside Columbia and a COA clerk and it is fairly easy to guesstimate what Kent and Stone mean. I assumed Kent was top 5% and Stone was top 40% and I'm basically right. Keep the Kent and toss the rest.

[Anonymous User]

OP here! To clarify, at either school I would still need to do quite well, correct? It’s not like if I went to Chicago I can be median and land on COA right?

For context, due to a couple significant personal reasons, I am confident I would be much happier in NYC and feel I would be in a better state mentally to perform my best in school, but wondering if that is enough to justify turning down Chicago and its clerkship advantage

[Anonymous User]

OP here! To clarify, at either school I would still need to do quite well, correct? It’s not like if I went to Chicago I can be median and land on COA right?

For context, due to a couple significant personal reasons, I am confident I would be much happier in NYC and feel I would be in a better state mentally to perform my best in school, but wondering if that is enough to justify turning down Chicago and its clerkship advantage

IMO there is a chance that someone at UChicago, in Fed Soc, and median could get a COA clerkship if they applied broadly. Personally, I would be shocked if someone at CLS who was median and in Fed Soc got a COA clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

OP here! To clarify, at either school I would still need to do quite well, correct? It’s not like if I went to Chicago I can be median and land on COA right?

For context, due to a couple significant personal reasons, I am confident I would be much happier in NYC and feel I would be in a better state mentally to perform my best in school, but wondering if that is enough to justify turning down Chicago and its clerkship advantage

IMO there is a chance that someone at UChicago, in Fed Soc, and median could get a COA clerkship if they applied broadly. Personally, I would be shocked if someone at CLS who was median and in Fed Soc got a COA clerkship.

Chicago grad here. Yes it is possible, and I would venture to say likely, for median fed soc students to get a COA clerkship.

[Anonymous User]

AFAIK, non-RBG/non-Kent Fedsoc students at Columbia clerk on the COA level pretty frequently. The main difference is that CLS Fedsoc students aren't clerking for feeders in the same way UChicago Fedsoc students do.

[Anonymous User]

The better choice for clerkships is Chicago. Hands down, and significantly so. But it sounds like you would rather go to Columbia for personal reasons. So go to Columbia; life is short.

[Anonymous User]

OP here! To clarify, at either school I would still need to do quite well, correct? It’s not like if I went to Chicago I can be median and land on COA right?

For context, due to a couple significant personal reasons, I am confident I would be much happier in NYC and feel I would be in a better state mentally to perform my best in school, but wondering if that is enough to justify turning down Chicago and its clerkship advantage

I’d actually say there is like a 50-75% chance of you securing a COA clerkship before graduation if you are at median, on the Fed-Soc board at Chicago, and willing to apply very broadly.

[Anonymous User]

OP here! To clarify, at either school I would still need to do quite well, correct? It’s not like if I went to Chicago I can be median and land on COA right?

For context, due to a couple significant personal reasons, I am confident I would be much happier in NYC and feel I would be in a better state mentally to perform my best in school, but wondering if that is enough to justify turning down Chicago and its clerkship advantage

Honestly, go to Columbia, and I say that as a FedSoc guy who loved clerking and would have personally chosen Chicago. Happiness is a huge driver of success and clerking will ultimately be a small part of your career as a lawyer. You'll have no shortage of great options available to you if you do well at CLS and it sounds like you'll have an eminently more enjoyable 3 years.

[Anonymous User]

AFAIK, non-RBG/non-Kent Fedsoc students at Columbia clerk on the COA level pretty frequently. The main difference is that CLS Fedsoc students aren't clerking for feeders in the same way UChicago Fedsoc students do.

Yeah, I know a couple friends who snagged COA at slightly above median from CLS. Not 2/9/DC obviously, but they did it.

[Anonymous User]

How can a student due "diligence" for clerkships?

What do you mean? If you mean how can you know which judges are good experiences, the rumor mill, a good clerkship office (I.e. not CLS’s), and this forum are the best resources. Though assuming you’re OP I think every NYC-area Fed Soc clerkship is basically a good experience. Some will work you really hard (Cronan, Kovner, Sullivan), some are awkward (Kovner, Menashi), but there aren’t any sociopathic bosses or anything.

I mean, sure, but none of that is really something someone could do to go from struggling on plan to receiving district + COA clerkships during 3L. I have no idea what they meant hahaha

[Anonymous User]

OP here! To clarify, at either school I would still need to do quite well, correct? It’s not like if I went to Chicago I can be median and land on COA right?

For context, due to a couple significant personal reasons, I am confident I would be much happier in NYC and feel I would be in a better state mentally to perform my best in school, but wondering if that is enough to justify turning down Chicago and its clerkship advantage

IMO there is a chance that someone at UChicago, in Fed Soc, and median could get a COA clerkship if they applied broadly. Personally, I would be shocked if someone at CLS who was median and in Fed Soc got a COA clerkship.

Chicago grad here. Yes it is possible, and I would venture to say likely, for median fed soc students to get a COA clerkship.

Yeah at Chicago a strong majority of people in Fed Soc get COAs. About top 10% (high honors) is what you need to get a major feeder, though some people get major feeders without HH.

[Anonymous User]

Do grades matter a lot for post-clerkship hiring? Ie can a killer COA stint make up for median grades and land someone a lit boutique?

[Anonymous User]

Do grades matter a lot for post-clerkship hiring? Ie can a killer COA stint make up for median grades and land someone a lit boutique?

Look at the graduation honors of associates at Kellogg who clerked for conservative appellate judges

[only saying conservative because grades are a requirement for liberal students to get killer COA clerkships]

[Anonymous User]

Do grades matter a lot for post-clerkship hiring? Ie can a killer COA stint make up for median grades and land someone a lit boutique?

Both grades and clerkship prestige matter post-clerkship, but a good enough clerkship can make up for a lot. Of course the odds you land a really good clerkship from median are low, even in the Fed Soc world, unless you're unusually well-connected.