Should I only apply to competitive districts? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling applicants underestimate the avalanche of apps that comes in on the first day of the plan. It is definitely possible to get pulled from the pile without a call from a professor. But a call, especially from a professor the judge knows or otherwise knows of (e.g. has read their articles, has seen them on a panel, the prof appeared before them, etc.) is almost *guaranteed* to get your application pulled. That doesn't mean you'll get an interview--if your credentials are well short of what the judge wants, chambers will just move along--but it does mean you'll get eyeballs on your app, which not everyone will.

Absent calls, the kinds of applications my co-clerks and I pulled from the Plan Day avalanche were:

- the best applicants from the law schools we went to
- people with especially shiny grades (GPA's that begin with the number 4 stand out when you see dozens of 3.8's and 3.9's)
- people with especially shiny recommenders ("Erwin Chemerinsky? I've heard of him")
- people with particularly interesting backgrounds (the person who was special forces, or a Rhodes Scholar, or was published at 19, etc. is going to get a ton of interview requests)

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling applicants underestimate the avalanche of apps that comes in on the first day of the plan. It is definitely possible to get pulled from the pile without a call from a professor. But a call, especially from a professor the judge knows or otherwise knows of (e.g. has read their articles, has seen them on a panel, the prof appeared before them, etc.) is almost *guaranteed* to get your application pulled. That doesn't mean you'll get an interview--if your credentials are well short of what the judge wants, chambers will just move along--but it does mean you'll get eyeballs on your app, which not everyone will.

Absent calls, the kinds of applications my co-clerks and I pulled from the Plan Day avalanche were:

- the best applicants from the law schools we went to
- people with especially shiny grades (GPA's that begin with the number 4 stand out when you see dozens of 3.8's and 3.9's)
- people with especially shiny recommenders ("Erwin Chemerinsky? I've heard of him")
- people with particularly interesting backgrounds (the person who was special forces, or a Rhodes Scholar, or was published at 19, etc. is going to get a ton of interview requests)

So I guess its almost like in considering the importance of calls there is a substantial difference between on-plan and post-plan. For instance a 3L applying now would probably need less help from a call whereas a 2L on plan would?

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling applicants underestimate the avalanche of apps that comes in on the first day of the plan. It is definitely possible to get pulled from the pile without a call from a professor. But a call, especially from a professor the judge knows or otherwise knows of (e.g. has read their articles, has seen them on a panel, the prof appeared before them, etc.) is almost *guaranteed* to get your application pulled. That doesn't mean you'll get an interview--if your credentials are well short of what the judge wants, chambers will just move along--but it does mean you'll get eyeballs on your app, which not everyone will.

Absent calls, the kinds of applications my co-clerks and I pulled from the Plan Day avalanche were:

- the best applicants from the law schools we went to
- people with especially shiny grades (GPA's that begin with the number 4 stand out when you see dozens of 3.8's and 3.9's)
- people with especially shiny recommenders ("Erwin Chemerinsky? I've heard of him")
- people with particularly interesting backgrounds (the person who was special forces, or a Rhodes Scholar, or was published at 19, etc. is going to get a ton of interview requests)

So I guess its almost like in considering the importance of calls there is a substantial difference between on-plan and post-plan. For instance a 3L applying now would probably need less help from a call whereas a 2L on plan would?

Different anon. Probably, but it could also depend on whether the judge reads off-plan apps as they come in, or waits to get a critical mass of applicants, or wants to see what happens with on-plan apps before deciding.

The reality of it is that having someone call is probably the best, most reliable method for getting noticed. That doesn't mean that if you can't/won't line up profs to call, you're doomed, but engaging in wishful thinking about why calls aren't really that helpful isn't going to change the reality.

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling applicants underestimate the avalanche of apps that comes in on the first day of the plan. It is definitely possible to get pulled from the pile without a call from a professor. But a call, especially from a professor the judge knows or otherwise knows of (e.g. has read their articles, has seen them on a panel, the prof appeared before them, etc.) is almost *guaranteed* to get your application pulled. That doesn't mean you'll get an interview--if your credentials are well short of what the judge wants, chambers will just move along--but it does mean you'll get eyeballs on your app, which not everyone will.

Absent calls, the kinds of applications my co-clerks and I pulled from the Plan Day avalanche were:

- the best applicants from the law schools we went to
- people with especially shiny grades (GPA's that begin with the number 4 stand out when you see dozens of 3.8's and 3.9's)
- people with especially shiny recommenders ("Erwin Chemerinsky? I've heard of him")
- people with particularly interesting backgrounds (the person who was special forces, or a Rhodes Scholar, or was published at 19, etc. is going to get a ton of interview requests)

So I guess its almost like in considering the importance of calls there is a substantial difference between on-plan and post-plan. For instance a 3L applying now would probably need less help from a call whereas a 2L on plan would?

Different anon. Probably, but it could also depend on whether the judge reads off-plan apps as they come in, or waits to get a critical mass of applicants, or wants to see what happens with on-plan apps before deciding.

The reality of it is that having someone call is probably the best, most reliable method for getting noticed. That doesn't mean that if you can't/won't line up profs to call, you're doomed, but engaging in wishful thinking about why calls aren't really that helpful isn't going to change the reality.

Where would you put emails to chambers in all of this? I assume it is better than nothing, but wonder how much better than nothing it is.

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling applicants underestimate the avalanche of apps that comes in on the first day of the plan. It is definitely possible to get pulled from the pile without a call from a professor. But a call, especially from a professor the judge knows or otherwise knows of (e.g. has read their articles, has seen them on a panel, the prof appeared before them, etc.) is almost *guaranteed* to get your application pulled. That doesn't mean you'll get an interview--if your credentials are well short of what the judge wants, chambers will just move along--but it does mean you'll get eyeballs on your app, which not everyone will.

Absent calls, the kinds of applications my co-clerks and I pulled from the Plan Day avalanche were:

- the best applicants from the law schools we went to
- people with especially shiny grades (GPA's that begin with the number 4 stand out when you see dozens of 3.8's and 3.9's)
- people with especially shiny recommenders ("Erwin Chemerinsky? I've heard of him")
- people with particularly interesting backgrounds (the person who was special forces, or a Rhodes Scholar, or was published at 19, etc. is going to get a ton of interview requests)

So I guess its almost like in considering the importance of calls there is a substantial difference between on-plan and post-plan. For instance a 3L applying now would probably need less help from a call whereas a 2L on plan would?

Different anon. Probably, but it could also depend on whether the judge reads off-plan apps as they come in, or waits to get a critical mass of applicants, or wants to see what happens with on-plan apps before deciding.

The reality of it is that having someone call is probably the best, most reliable method for getting noticed. That doesn't mean that if you can't/won't line up profs to call, you're doomed, but engaging in wishful thinking about why calls aren't really that helpful isn't going to change the reality.

Where would you put emails to chambers in all of this? I assume it is better than nothing, but wonder how much better than nothing it is.

Definitely helps if it gets read. My guess is that with email, it matters even more whether the professor has some type of relationship with the judge (or the judge at least knows who the professor is). A cold email from a complete stranger would probably be less helpful than a call.

[Anonymous User]

I get the feeling applicants underestimate the avalanche of apps that comes in on the first day of the plan. It is definitely possible to get pulled from the pile without a call from a professor. But a call, especially from a professor the judge knows or otherwise knows of (e.g. has read their articles, has seen them on a panel, the prof appeared before them, etc.) is almost *guaranteed* to get your application pulled. That doesn't mean you'll get an interview--if your credentials are well short of what the judge wants, chambers will just move along--but it does mean you'll get eyeballs on your app, which not everyone will.

Absent calls, the kinds of applications my co-clerks and I pulled from the Plan Day avalanche were:

- the best applicants from the law schools we went to
- people with especially shiny grades (GPA's that begin with the number 4 stand out when you see dozens of 3.8's and 3.9's)
- people with especially shiny recommenders ("Erwin Chemerinsky? I've heard of him")
- people with particularly interesting backgrounds (the person who was special forces, or a Rhodes Scholar, or was published at 19, etc. is going to get a ton of interview requests)

So I guess its almost like in considering the importance of calls there is a substantial difference between on-plan and post-plan. For instance a 3L applying now would probably need less help from a call whereas a 2L on plan would?

Different anon. Probably, but it could also depend on whether the judge reads off-plan apps as they come in, or waits to get a critical mass of applicants, or wants to see what happens with on-plan apps before deciding.

The reality of it is that having someone call is probably the best, most reliable method for getting noticed. That doesn't mean that if you can't/won't line up profs to call, you're doomed, but engaging in wishful thinking about why calls aren't really that helpful isn't going to change the reality.

Where would you put emails to chambers in all of this? I assume it is better than nothing, but wonder how much better than nothing it is.

Definitely helps if it gets read. My guess is that with email, it matters even more whether the professor has some type of relationship with the judge (or the judge at least knows who the professor is). A cold email from a complete stranger would probably be less helpful than a call.

Yeah, a cold e-mail from a stranger isn't really much more than reiterating what the LOR says. I agree that an e-mail from someone the judge already knows is fine. Otherwise, I think a lot of judges would want to have a phone call where they could better assess the recommender's credibility and genuineness.

[Anonymous User]

Clerk 2/9/DC. I am unconvinced that a call from a professor unfamiliar to my judge would have much impact. Although they were always courteous on the phone and take notes, we never really interviewed a candidate that didn't have a glowing recommendation from someone my judge already knows and respects. However, my judge is acquainted with nearly all the professors who might make calls from the schools we recruit from.

So maybe a call from a legal writing professor might be influential elsewhere. But at least in our chambers, a letter or email from a professor we know is the decisive factor, particularly during the busy period around plan time. Otherwise, we can evaluate resumes, and the previous commenter who mentioned the abundance of highly accomplished applicants is absolutely correct.

[Anonymous User]

Clerk 2/9/DC. I am unconvinced that a call from a professor unfamiliar to my judge would have much impact. Although they were always courteous on the phone and take notes, we never really interviewed a candidate that didn't have a glowing recommendation from someone my judge already knows and respects. However, my judge is acquainted with nearly all the professors who might make calls from the schools we recruit from.

So maybe a call from a legal writing professor might be influential elsewhere. But at least in our chambers, a letter or email from a professor we know is the decisive factor, particularly during the busy period around plan time. Otherwise, we can evaluate resumes, and the previous commenter who mentioned the abundance of highly accomplished applicants is absolutely correct.

Clerk on one of those courts as well. I agree with all of this, except that a call from an unfamiliar professor will usually at least be helpful for getting the application pulled out of the pile. It might only get 30 seconds of attention once it's off the pile, but the call will at least give you a chance that the judge or a clerk finds something else compelling about your resume.

It is generally good advice that professor calls are by far the most valuable when the judge knows or knows of the professor. Keep this in mind when asking professors to call judges, and even when applying--it's definitely OK to ask your professors which judges they know (or if you want to be less blunt, if they can "recommend any judges who might be good to work for").

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, I am a 2L looking to apply on plan in a few months. I am hoping you all can help me develop my application strategy by giving some good realistic assessment of my chances, though I know this is inherently not a precise science. Posting in this thread since it is sort of the same concept.

Low T14 (Northwestern/GULC/UCLA)
Top 10% (~3.9)
Main LR, no e-board
Three solid if unspectacular letters of reference lined up (professors I RA'd for, etc.) Not anticipating anyone making calls for me
4 years prior work experience in interesting but nonprestigious field (arts)
2L SA in biglaw for next summer
Judicial internship with SDNY/EDNY/DDC
Non-padded 2L schedule (Admin, Evidence, etc.)

My dream clerkships would be DDC/SDNY/EDNY/2nd Cir./9th Cir./DC Cir. Willing to apply to COAs in more random areas. Any sense of my overall level of competitiveness as an applicant for those (and other) opportunities? Should I really be blanketing districts across the country?

I'll offer a data point because this is almost exactly me, with the exception of applying to SDNY/EDNY (did not want to clerk in NYC, though I did apply to all of the 2nd Cir judges). Otherwise, I applied all over and got a handful of interviews at the D.Md./D.N.J./E.D.Va. level and one COA interview in a flyover city. I would say I got 5-6 interviews in total, but I wound up accepting the first district court offer I got, which I essentially got based on my interests section. I was rejected by the COA judge. My clerkship was also in a district that would likely require you to blanket the country. I would suggest blanketing district courts across the country because it was the best experience of my professional life, and I'm now in a situation with a lot of former clerks from those more prestigious districts/COAs on your list.

OP here, thanks for the feedback and glad you had such a good experience. Worth remembering that clerking sounds great regardless of preffftige. By "situation" you mean like AUSA/lit boutique/DOJ etc.?

As another data point, I had higher grades with very good LORs and extras at the same tier of schools.

I applied to 100 judges on plan without an interview.

But, with a lot of effort, I now have a district and circuit clerkship lined up—
not at any of the districts or circuits OP mentions. You NEED to have professors call for you, otherwise your app will probably not even be seen, let alone considered seriously.

That’s not to say you shouldn’t aim as high as you want, but the process is difficult. If the goal is to clerk full stop, then you should apply anywhere and everywhere.

There are fantastic judges outside of the “prestigious” courts, and there are plenty of bad judges in the “prestigious” courts.

You should consider what your goals are with clerking, expand your range of courts, and figure out if any of your profs or school have connections to particular judges and have people call those judges for you.

Do you really need someone to call for you? I have to imagine lots of people even in like SDNY/DDC get pulled off the pile without a phone call, no?

You asked for advice. I gave it. Best of luck with your apps.

Hey I just want to clarify that I am the person who originally posted these stats (low T14, 3.9, etc.) but the person who posted "Do you really need someone to call for you" is a different anon. The last time I posted in this thread was just saying "Thanks for the feedback."

This thread is pretty enlightening lol. I will see if I can get my professors to call for me. It reminds me of in Harry Potter when Harry uses the lucky potion to figure out exactly how to get his professor to tell him how to kill Voldemort. He ends up getting the professor drunk and guilting him about Voldemort killing his parents. So, I will consider some measure along those lines

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, I am a 2L looking to apply on plan in a few months. I am hoping you all can help me develop my application strategy by giving some good realistic assessment of my chances, though I know this is inherently not a precise science. Posting in this thread since it is sort of the same concept.

Low T14 (Northwestern/GULC/UCLA)
Top 10% (~3.9)
Main LR, no e-board
Three solid if unspectacular letters of reference lined up (professors I RA'd for, etc.) Not anticipating anyone making calls for me
4 years prior work experience in interesting but nonprestigious field (arts)
2L SA in biglaw for next summer
Judicial internship with SDNY/EDNY/DDC
Non-padded 2L schedule (Admin, Evidence, etc.)

My dream clerkships would be DDC/SDNY/EDNY/2nd Cir./9th Cir./DC Cir. Willing to apply to COAs in more random areas. Any sense of my overall level of competitiveness as an applicant for those (and other) opportunities? Should I really be blanketing districts across the country?

I'll offer a data point because this is almost exactly me, with the exception of applying to SDNY/EDNY (did not want to clerk in NYC, though I did apply to all of the 2nd Cir judges). Otherwise, I applied all over and got a handful of interviews at the D.Md./D.N.J./E.D.Va. level and one COA interview in a flyover city. I would say I got 5-6 interviews in total, but I wound up accepting the first district court offer I got, which I essentially got based on my interests section. I was rejected by the COA judge. My clerkship was also in a district that would likely require you to blanket the country. I would suggest blanketing district courts across the country because it was the best experience of my professional life, and I'm now in a situation with a lot of former clerks from those more prestigious districts/COAs on your list.

OP here, thanks for the feedback and glad you had such a good experience. Worth remembering that clerking sounds great regardless of preffftige. By "situation" you mean like AUSA/lit boutique/DOJ etc.?

As another data point, I had higher grades with very good LORs and extras at the same tier of schools.

I applied to 100 judges on plan without an interview.

But, with a lot of effort, I now have a district and circuit clerkship lined up—
not at any of the districts or circuits OP mentions. You NEED to have professors call for you, otherwise your app will probably not even be seen, let alone considered seriously.

That’s not to say you shouldn’t aim as high as you want, but the process is difficult. If the goal is to clerk full stop, then you should apply anywhere and everywhere.

There are fantastic judges outside of the “prestigious” courts, and there are plenty of bad judges in the “prestigious” courts.

You should consider what your goals are with clerking, expand your range of courts, and figure out if any of your profs or school have connections to particular judges and have people call those judges for you.

Do you really need someone to call for you? I have to imagine lots of people even in like SDNY/DDC get pulled off the pile without a phone call, no?

You asked for advice. I gave it. Best of luck with your apps.

Hey I just want to clarify that I am the person who originally posted these stats (low T14, 3.9, etc.) but the person who posted "Do you really need someone to call for you" is a different anon. The last time I posted in this thread was just saying "Thanks for the feedback."

This thread is pretty enlightening lol. I will see if I can get my professors to call for me. It reminds me of in Harry Potter when Harry uses the lucky potion to figure out exactly how to get his professor to tell him how to kill Voldemort. He ends up getting the professor drunk and guilting him about Voldemort killing his parents. So, I will consider some measure along those lines

You might get shit for the analogy but I cannot emphasize enough how things striate based on connections once you hit a certain grade threshold. I'm at SHC and out of my friends with good but not elite grades (top 10-20%-ish), the people who got high end clerkships were those who had played the "professor game" well

[Anonymous User]

I'll offer a data point because this is almost exactly me, with the exception of applying to SDNY/EDNY (did not want to clerk in NYC, though I did apply to all of the 2nd Cir judges). Otherwise, I applied all over and got a handful of interviews at the D.Md./D.N.J./E.D.Va. level and one COA interview in a flyover city. I would say I got 5-6 interviews in total, but I wound up accepting the first district court offer I got, which I essentially got based on my interests section. I was rejected by the COA judge. My clerkship was also in a district that would likely require you to blanket the country. I would suggest blanketing district courts across the country because it was the best experience of my professional life, and I'm now in a situation with a lot of former clerks from those more prestigious districts/COAs on your list.

OP here, thanks for the feedback and glad you had such a good experience. Worth remembering that clerking sounds great regardless of preffftige. By "situation" you mean like AUSA/lit boutique/DOJ etc.?

As another data point, I had higher grades with very good LORs and extras at the same tier of schools.

I applied to 100 judges on plan without an interview.

But, with a lot of effort, I now have a district and circuit clerkship lined up—
not at any of the districts or circuits OP mentions. You NEED to have professors call for you, otherwise your app will probably not even be seen, let alone considered seriously.

That’s not to say you shouldn’t aim as high as you want, but the process is difficult. If the goal is to clerk full stop, then you should apply anywhere and everywhere.

There are fantastic judges outside of the “prestigious” courts, and there are plenty of bad judges in the “prestigious” courts.

You should consider what your goals are with clerking, expand your range of courts, and figure out if any of your profs or school have connections to particular judges and have people call those judges for you.

Do you really need someone to call for you? I have to imagine lots of people even in like SDNY/DDC get pulled off the pile without a phone call, no?

You asked for advice. I gave it. Best of luck with your apps.

Hey I just want to clarify that I am the person who originally posted these stats (low T14, 3.9, etc.) but the person who posted "Do you really need someone to call for you" is a different anon. The last time I posted in this thread was just saying "Thanks for the feedback."

This thread is pretty enlightening lol. I will see if I can get my professors to call for me. It reminds me of in Harry Potter when Harry uses the lucky potion to figure out exactly how to get his professor to tell him how to kill Voldemort. He ends up getting the professor drunk and guilting him about Voldemort killing his parents. So, I will consider some measure along those lines

You might get shit for the analogy but I cannot emphasize enough how things striate based on connections once you hit a certain grade threshold. I'm at SHC and out of my friends with good but not elite grades (top 10-20%-ish), the people who got high end clerkships were those who had played the "professor game" well

Agreed. I remember when I was at CCN I was sort of blown away how connections based it was. I had always of course expected that, but I thought hey those can't just be it. Basically every friend that got a clerkship did so with some sort of connection and people who were in the top 5% of the class but did not have a Professor pulling for them would routinely strike out. Felt somewhat duped insofar as I sort of bought into that whole thing of try your best and seek out those Professors whose interests overlap advice I got from the clerkship office. In hindsight, I really should have done that and made a real effort at getting some big name professor in my corner. I got something in the end but it was way more of a struggle than I had initially realized.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone, I am a 2L looking to apply on plan in a few months. I am hoping you all can help me develop my application strategy by giving some good realistic assessment of my chances, though I know this is inherently not a precise science. Posting in this thread since it is sort of the same concept.

Low T14 (Northwestern/GULC/UCLA)
Top 10% (~3.9)
Main LR, no e-board
Three solid if unspectacular letters of reference lined up (professors I RA'd for, etc.) Not anticipating anyone making calls for me
4 years prior work experience in interesting but nonprestigious field (arts)
2L SA in biglaw for next summer
Judicial internship with SDNY/EDNY/DDC
Non-padded 2L schedule (Admin, Evidence, etc.)

My dream clerkships would be DDC/SDNY/EDNY/2nd Cir./9th Cir./DC Cir. Willing to apply to COAs in more random areas. Any sense of my overall level of competitiveness as an applicant for those (and other) opportunities? Should I really be blanketing districts across the country?

I'll offer a data point because this is almost exactly me, with the exception of applying to SDNY/EDNY (did not want to clerk in NYC, though I did apply to all of the 2nd Cir judges). Otherwise, I applied all over and got a handful of interviews at the D.Md./D.N.J./E.D.Va. level and one COA interview in a flyover city. I would say I got 5-6 interviews in total, but I wound up accepting the first district court offer I got, which I essentially got based on my interests section. I was rejected by the COA judge. My clerkship was also in a district that would likely require you to blanket the country. I would suggest blanketing district courts across the country because it was the best experience of my professional life, and I'm now in a situation with a lot of former clerks from those more prestigious districts/COAs on your list.

OP here, thanks for the feedback and glad you had such a good experience. Worth remembering that clerking sounds great regardless of preffftige. By "situation" you mean like AUSA/lit boutique/DOJ etc.?

As another data point, I had higher grades with very good LORs and extras at the same tier of schools.

I applied to 100 judges on plan without an interview.

But, with a lot of effort, I now have a district and circuit clerkship lined up—
not at any of the districts or circuits OP mentions. You NEED to have professors call for you, otherwise your app will probably not even be seen, let alone considered seriously.

That’s not to say you shouldn’t aim as high as you want, but the process is difficult. If the goal is to clerk full stop, then you should apply anywhere and everywhere.

There are fantastic judges outside of the “prestigious” courts, and there are plenty of bad judges in the “prestigious” courts.

You should consider what your goals are with clerking, expand your range of courts, and figure out if any of your profs or school have connections to particular judges and have people call those judges for you.

Do you really need someone to call for you? I have to imagine lots of people even in like SDNY/DDC get pulled off the pile without a phone call, no?

You asked for advice. I gave it. Best of luck with your apps.

Hey I just want to clarify that I am the person who originally posted these stats (low T14, 3.9, etc.) but the person who posted "Do you really need someone to call for you" is a different anon. The last time I posted in this thread was just saying "Thanks for the feedback."

This thread is pretty enlightening lol. I will see if I can get my professors to call for me. It reminds me of in Harry Potter when Harry uses the lucky potion to figure out exactly how to get his professor to tell him how to kill Voldemort. He ends up getting the professor drunk and guilting him about Voldemort killing his parents. So, I will consider some measure along those lines

Absolutely love this analogy. It's pretty much the same, turn the charm machine on and put yourself out there. Faculty receptions, etc. are great places to do this.

[Anonymous User]

Think of what will help your career and act in concert with that. 3.9 from CLS, I assume you can work somewhere really fancy. A random district court--no matter how prestigious and good of an experience--is not going to be a resume booster for everyone. So either focus on competitive districts or a district in a region you want to practice in. You could also just do any circuit, those are pretty difficult regardless of grades.

That being said, todays clerkship market is all about phone calls from professors. So I would try that route first.

[jotarokujo]

Think of what will help your career and act in concert with that. 3.9 from CLS, I assume you can work somewhere really fancy. A random district court--no matter how prestigious and good of an experience--is not going to be a resume booster for everyone. So either focus on competitive districts or a district in a region you want to practice in. You could also just do any circuit, those are pretty difficult regardless of grades.

That being said, todays clerkship market is all about phone calls from professors. So I would try that route first.

9/10 a random district will help the resume of a 3.9 from CLS