HLS - clerkship help please Forum

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

Yes working for those firms (or really any biglaw firm) will greatly set your application apart. In fact, part of the competitiveness of places like SDNY/DDC as a 2L on plan is that judges also are able to pick someone with one to two years of work experience.

[Anonymous User]

It’s true your chances go up after working but if finances are a consideration I think the value of a clerkship right out of law school in Miami or something is at least comparable to a clerkship in new york 4 years out considering the latter is a much larger financial hit

in other words, the prestige drop from a new york to miami is potentially not greater in value than the financial hit

[Anonymous User]

Government-focused student here. If I have moderately worse grades than OP, does the prestige of district matter much for government honors programs? (Think DOJ, FTC, CFPB)

I think when your goal is government honors, there's much more value to being flexible with where you clerk. That's because you can't retain eligibility if you go to a firm, but you can if you clerk. And Honors values clerkships highly. You're in a situation where striking out during law school actually hurts you.

Thanks, this was my intuition. I wanted to know I'm not at as much a disadvantage in a flyover locale vs a NDIL clerk for government and I wouldn't mind living somewhere like Frankfort (not Frankfurt!) KY to use an example from above

[lavarman84]

Government-focused student here. If I have moderately worse grades than OP, does the prestige of district matter much for government honors programs? (Think DOJ, FTC, CFPB)

I think when your goal is government honors, there's much more value to being flexible with where you clerk. That's because you can't retain eligibility if you go to a firm, but you can if you clerk. And Honors values clerkships highly. You're in a situation where striking out during law school actually hurts you.

Thanks, this was my intuition. I wanted to know I'm not at as much a disadvantage in a flyover locale vs a NDIL clerk for government and I wouldn't mind living somewhere like Frankfort (not Frankfurt!) KY to use an example from above

My bad. It's been a long week. I didn't read closely enough. I don't think it puts you at a huge disadvantage. But if others disagree, I'll defer to their wisdom.

[Anonymous User]

Yes working for those firms (or really any biglaw firm) will greatly set your application apart. In fact, part of the competitiveness of places like SDNY/DDC as a 2L on plan is that judges also are able to pick someone with one to two years of work experience.

I wanted to bold the part I think is significant. There's a substantial group of judges who really like to see work experience (and of course working somewhere a particular judge has a connection to, like they used to work there or are buddies with the partners or have former clerks working there is going to be best of all). But a lot of judges aren't going to be parsing which exact firm that experience is from very finely. So I don't want the takeaway from the above to be that the OP has to aim for some kind of particular subset of biglaw. Some small proportion of the judges who value work experience *may* have very strong preferences as to firm, but generally the key distinction is work experience v. no work experience, not V10 v. V50 or whatever.

(Obviously there are other reasons to go to as top a firm as you can so I'm not saying *don't* pick those firms, just not to do it to impress a judge. Since the OP another poster mentioned Frankfort - five out of the six DCt judges in EDKY went to Kentucky law schools, practiced in Kentucky, and are not going to know/care much about NYC/DC biglaw. Some of the 6th Cir judges may care more, but most of them practiced locally and I doubt someone who practiced in a Kentucky/Tennessee/Michigan firm before being appointed to the bench 20-30 years ago is going to have strong opinions about which biglaw firm either. Obviously if you're talking about NYC/DC clerkships this could be different, so may be less pertinent to the OP.)

(edited b/c I realize I mixed up posters)

[Anonymous User]

Government-focused student here. If I have moderately worse grades than OP, does the prestige of district matter much for government honors programs? (Think DOJ, FTC, CFPB)

I think when your goal is government honors, there's much more value to being flexible with where you clerk. That's because you can't retain eligibility if you go to a firm, but you can if you clerk. And Honors values clerkships highly. You're in a situation where striking out during law school actually hurts you.

Thanks, this was my intuition. I wanted to know I'm not at as much a disadvantage in a flyover locale vs a NDIL clerk for government and I wouldn't mind living somewhere like Frankfort (not Frankfurt!) KY to use an example from above

My bad. It's been a long week. I didn't read closely enough. I don't think it puts you at a huge disadvantage. But if others disagree, I'll defer to their wisdom.

As an honors person with relatively ordinary grades and a flyover clerkship, I agree that flyover doesn't put you at a disadvantage. I've seen government people with clerkships from all over, and rarely where they end up practicing. The people I've encountered certainly seem to credit a clerkship as a clerkship as a clerkship.

Again I think a lot of this is correlation - people who get the most competitive clerkships tend to be people who have the best qualifications, therefore they're going to be competitive for a lot of other things as well. But I've never heard anyone say anything that even hinted of "we liked candidate x and candidate y equally but candidate y had the better clerkship so we went with them." I mean sure, if the "better" judge also has connections in the government office and goes to bat for their clerk, that will make a difference, but it's not based on where the judge sits.

[Anonymous User]

This is terrible advice, there isn’t much difference in “prestige” or career benefits between circuits, it depends much more on the individual judge.

I agree. I wasn't saying to focus on cities for prestige, I was saying to focus on cities for the reasons people want to live in cities if that is OP's preference, e.g. they want to work in that city after clerking

My point was OP should decide where they want to live. If they can live anywhere, then apply broadly both COA and district court. If they only want to live in certain places (not for prestige reasons), apply only to those places both COA and district court

The difference between COA and district court is (on average, not including feeders) not going to make someone happy living somewhere they do not want to live

Just saying, this attitude is why CLS and NYU punch so far below their weight. If you seriously want to clerk, you have to be willing to move. But of course the right strategy depends on OP's priorities; if they have very strong location preferences and/or apathy regarding clerking or year, your suggestion is the right one.

[Anonymous User]

Government-focused student here. If I have moderately worse grades than OP, does the prestige of district matter much for government honors programs? (Think DOJ, FTC, CFPB)

I think when your goal is government honors, there's much more value to being flexible with where you clerk. That's because you can't retain eligibility if you go to a firm, but you can if you clerk. And Honors values clerkships highly. You're in a situation where striking out during law school actually hurts you.

Yes, the Honors dynamics are very important and drastically raise the cost of striking out for government-focused applicants.

[Anonymous User]

Yes working for those firms (or really any biglaw firm) will greatly set your application apart. In fact, part of the competitiveness of places like SDNY/DDC as a 2L on plan is that judges also are able to pick someone with one to two years of work experience.

I wanted to bold the part I think is significant. There's a substantial group of judges who really like to see work experience (and of course working somewhere a particular judge has a connection to, like they used to work there or are buddies with the partners or have former clerks working there is going to be best of all). But a lot of judges aren't going to be parsing which exact firm that experience is from very finely. So I don't want the takeaway from the above to be that the OP has to aim for some kind of particular subset of biglaw. Some small proportion of the judges who value work experience *may* have very strong preferences as to firm, but generally the key distinction is work experience v. no work experience, not V10 v. V50 or whatever.

(Obviously there are other reasons to go to as top a firm as you can so I'm not saying *don't* pick those firms, just not to do it to impress a judge. Since the OP another poster mentioned Frankfort - five out of the six DCt judges in EDKY went to Kentucky law schools, practiced in Kentucky, and are not going to know/care much about NYC/DC biglaw. Some of the 6th Cir judges may care more, but most of them practiced locally and I doubt someone who practiced in a Kentucky/Tennessee/Michigan firm before being appointed to the bench 20-30 years ago is going to have strong opinions about which biglaw firm either. Obviously if you're talking about NYC/DC clerkships this could be different, so may be less pertinent to the OP.)

(edited b/c I realize I mixed up posters)

Yes, this is in large part a specific application of the general principle that in litigation, nobody cares about Vault. Clerkship applicants from biglaw firms are so common, and what particular firm you're at is generally so inconsequential, that it doesn't really move the needle IME. Possible exceptions for less generic WE like boutiques, Wachtell, or MTO.

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

There are going to be close to if not exactly zero SDNY judges in June 2023 that are both a) hiring for 2024 and b) willing to hire someone straight out of law school.

[Anonymous User]

There are going to be close to if not exactly zero SDNY judges in June 2023 that are both a) hiring for 2024 and b) willing to hire someone straight out of law school.

agreed, so financial considerations would point to applying this cycle to cities other than DC and new york, e.g. nashville, portland OR, etc. firms won't look down on a district court clerkship in these cities.

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

^this. Also, a lot of district judges (including the one I clerked for in one of N.D. Ill./D. Mass/D. Colo.) care about ties to the area and won't interview applicants--including ones with good grades from HLS--that have no connection. That's not all judges obviously, but the pool of judges who will seriously consider your application might be smaller than you would think. I would just apply to anywhere you'd be willing to spend a year rather than trying to play some 4-dimensional chess. If you get an interview and you're really not excited about it/would rather spend the year at the firm, just turn down the interview.

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

^this. Also, a lot of district judges (including the one I clerked for in one of N.D. Ill./D. Mass/D. Colo.) care about ties to the area and won't interview applicants--including ones with good grades from HLS--that have no connection. That's not all judges obviously, but the pool of judges who will seriously consider your application might be smaller than you would think. I would just apply to anywhere you'd be willing to spend a year rather than trying to play some 4-dimensional chess. If you get an interview and you're really not excited about it/would rather spend the year at the firm, just turn down the interview.

[OP] - fair, I have connections to NDIL, but also does that sort of insularity extend to the super popular districts/circuits as well

[Anonymous User]

Oh fuck, total whiplash over to the other side of things!

I don't want to overestimate the currency of my credentials at this point, but I am nervous about the firm stuff. I'm going to one of the preftige places in NYC/DC and with how fucked post-clerk hiring seems to be, I worry that if I don't clerk somewhere in line with where existing associates seem to have clerked, that I might struggle to get back to the firm (or a comparable firm) post-clerk.

Maybe this is getting too idiosyncratic, but do you have any advice on how district court targeting should look for someone in my position? I'd like to maximize my options and am comfortable waiting, but I also kinda assume (and have come to terms with) that I am not really competitive for feeders/semi-feeders/DDC type places

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

^this. Also, a lot of district judges (including the one I clerked for in one of N.D. Ill./D. Mass/D. Colo.) care about ties to the area and won't interview applicants--including ones with good grades from HLS--that have no connection. That's not all judges obviously, but the pool of judges who will seriously consider your application might be smaller than you would think. I would just apply to anywhere you'd be willing to spend a year rather than trying to play some 4-dimensional chess. If you get an interview and you're really not excited about it/would rather spend the year at the firm, just turn down the interview.

[OP] - fair, I have connections to NDIL, but also does that sort of insularity extend to the super popular districts/circuits as well

OP if you want to clerk right after law school, you do not have the grades to try to game up. In a way, this actually simplifies things for you since your approach will be pretty straightforward: just apply to every position you would take if offered to you. This is especially true since you are not competitive for feeders and semi-feeders. The difference between W judge in X circuit who is not a feeder is basically the same of Y judge who is not a feeder in Z circuit. Really just apply to those locations you would want to live in and try to target those judges who are fun to work with. (This sub tends to have a good pulse on that; or at least everything I have personal knowledge to has been corroborated by posts on this sub).

[Anonymous User]

Sure. If you want as much prestige as possible and are fine with striking out this cycle, start by going solely for SDNY, DDC, NDIL. I think you have a good shot there, but you may strike out. In that event, and assuming you do want to clerk, expand to other significant cities like Denver, Boston, Dallas, Seattle. I don't think given your grades there's ever any need to apply to your random towns like Frankfurt, Kentucky.

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

^this. Also, a lot of district judges (including the one I clerked for in one of N.D. Ill./D. Mass/D. Colo.) care about ties to the area and won't interview applicants--including ones with good grades from HLS--that have no connection. That's not all judges obviously, but the pool of judges who will seriously consider your application might be smaller than you would think. I would just apply to anywhere you'd be willing to spend a year rather than trying to play some 4-dimensional chess. If you get an interview and you're really not excited about it/would rather spend the year at the firm, just turn down the interview.

[OP] - fair, I have connections to NDIL, but also does that sort of insularity extend to the super popular districts/circuits as well

OP if you want to clerk right after law school, you do not have the grades to try to game up. In a way, this actually simplifies things for you since your approach will be pretty straightforward: just apply to every position you would take if offered to you. This is especially true since you are not competitive for feeders and semi-feeders. The difference between W judge in X circuit who is not a feeder is basically the same of Y judge who is not a feeder in Z circuit. Really just apply to those locations you would want to live in and try to target those judges who are fun to work with. (This sub tends to have a good pulse on that; or at least everything I have personal knowledge to has been corroborated by posts on this sub).

[OP] - I'm not at all wedded to the idea of clerking right out of law school - I would honestly prefer to clerk a few years out! I have to ask though, am I entirely out of competition for feeder/semi-feeder type judges? Any sense for how much better my grades would have to be

[Anonymous User]

Sounds good, thank you for bearing with me, I will do as much! If I end up striking out, I imagine working a Covington/Wilmer/W&C type place is only going to help my application, so working might even be a benefit? Although I guess that is weighed against the possibility my grades dip in the next 1.5 semesters

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

^this. Also, a lot of district judges (including the one I clerked for in one of N.D. Ill./D. Mass/D. Colo.) care about ties to the area and won't interview applicants--including ones with good grades from HLS--that have no connection. That's not all judges obviously, but the pool of judges who will seriously consider your application might be smaller than you would think. I would just apply to anywhere you'd be willing to spend a year rather than trying to play some 4-dimensional chess. If you get an interview and you're really not excited about it/would rather spend the year at the firm, just turn down the interview.

[OP] - fair, I have connections to NDIL, but also does that sort of insularity extend to the super popular districts/circuits as well

OP if you want to clerk right after law school, you do not have the grades to try to game up. In a way, this actually simplifies things for you since your approach will be pretty straightforward: just apply to every position you would take if offered to you. This is especially true since you are not competitive for feeders and semi-feeders. The difference between W judge in X circuit who is not a feeder is basically the same of Y judge who is not a feeder in Z circuit. Really just apply to those locations you would want to live in and try to target those judges who are fun to work with. (This sub tends to have a good pulse on that; or at least everything I have personal knowledge to has been corroborated by posts on this sub).

[OP] - I'm not at all wedded to the idea of clerking right out of law school - I would honestly prefer to clerk a few years out! I have to ask though, am I entirely out of competition for feeder/semi-feeder type judges? Any sense for how much better my grades would have to be

Since you said you're a centrist and I assume since you are waiting to apply on plan you are not hooked into fed soc you probably need to be comfortably above a 4.0 at HLS, absent something other compelling like military/Rhodes/URM/etc... I'm not as hooked into what exact grades someone like you would need, though, so someone else can step in. Maybe you have a shot at some semi-feeders as one of their non-feeds or someone they would take a chance on, but since you're probably not clerking on SCOTUS I, personally, do not think focusing on semi-feeders is a good strategy. Just focus on the city you want to live in and the judges that are cool to work for.

[Anonymous User]

Since this thread is talking about location preferences generally, how helpful is COA in post-clerkship hiring in the city where the circuit sits? I’m trying to get out of this wasteland where I live and I’m looking at Philadelphia/Boston/Atlanta/Denver (trying to be vague on purpose) where the court sits. The judge sits somewhere else in the circuit but is very well-connected to the city.

(If this is too much of a hijack, I can move this discussion.)

[Anonymous User]

Since this thread is talking about location preferences generally, how helpful is COA in post-clerkship hiring in the city where the circuit sits? I’m trying to get out of this wasteland where I live and I’m looking at Philadelphia/Boston/Atlanta/Denver (trying to be vague on purpose) where the court sits. The judge sits somewhere else in the circuit but is very well-connected to the city.

(If this is too much of a hijack, I can move this discussion.)

If the judge is very well connected to the city, then yeah that would be perfect of course (assuming they're willing to leverage those connections for you).

[Anonymous User]

yes and what I meant by "start by going solely for SDNY etc" I mean like only apply to those right when the plan opens. Then, assuming you prefer to clerk one or two years out rather than 4 years out, open up to other cities a month after the plan opens. If you would prefer to clerk multiple years out but have it be in SDNY, then don't apply to other cities at all because you can likely get SDNY or DDC in like 2-3 cycles of applying

another downside with clerking 4 years out is if you want to go to a firm after clerking, it's generally easier to get hired as a junior clerk than a midlevel. That potentially more than offsets the prestige difference between a Seattle clerkship and an SDNY clerkship in the eyes of firms

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

^this. Also, a lot of district judges (including the one I clerked for in one of N.D. Ill./D. Mass/D. Colo.) care about ties to the area and won't interview applicants--including ones with good grades from HLS--that have no connection. That's not all judges obviously, but the pool of judges who will seriously consider your application might be smaller than you would think. I would just apply to anywhere you'd be willing to spend a year rather than trying to play some 4-dimensional chess. If you get an interview and you're really not excited about it/would rather spend the year at the firm, just turn down the interview.

[OP] - fair, I have connections to NDIL, but also does that sort of insularity extend to the super popular districts/circuits as well

OP if you want to clerk right after law school, you do not have the grades to try to game up. In a way, this actually simplifies things for you since your approach will be pretty straightforward: just apply to every position you would take if offered to you. This is especially true since you are not competitive for feeders and semi-feeders. The difference between W judge in X circuit who is not a feeder is basically the same of Y judge who is not a feeder in Z circuit. Really just apply to those locations you would want to live in and try to target those judges who are fun to work with. (This sub tends to have a good pulse on that; or at least everything I have personal knowledge to has been corroborated by posts on this sub).

[OP] - I'm not at all wedded to the idea of clerking right out of law school - I would honestly prefer to clerk a few years out! I have to ask though, am I entirely out of competition for feeder/semi-feeder type judges? Any sense for how much better my grades would have to be

Since you said you're a centrist and I assume since you are waiting to apply on plan you are not hooked into fed soc you probably need to be comfortably above a 4.0 at HLS, absent something other compelling like military/Rhodes/URM/etc... I'm not as hooked into what exact grades someone like you would need, though, so someone else can step in. Maybe you have a shot at some semi-feeders as one of their non-feeds or someone they would take a chance on, but since you're probably not clerking on SCOTUS I, personally, do not think focusing on semi-feeders is a good strategy. Just focus on the city you want to live in and the judges that are cool to work for.

[OP] - yeah, not keyed into the fedsoc world but don't think I'm a particularly partisan candidate. So maybe inoffensive to conservative leaning judges, but certainly not their target demographic. Makes sense re: grades/identity things, just a middle class white woman so not checking any of those boxes. I'll probably still apply as part of a broader COA strategy but good to have a sense where the ceiling probably is!

[Anonymous User]

Don’t stagger applications and expect to get anything for one or two years out. By the time you expand, most of the most desirable judges will have hired—your second choice is someone else’s first choice. Competent clerkship offices strongly discourage this strategy.

Person you responded to, and I think you're right and I was wrong. If someone has a real preference for clerking quickly the difference between SDNY and another significant city is not big enough to take the risk of staggering apps. People should apply widely immediately.

OP if you would prefer to clerk several years out than right out of law school, then I think limiting your apps to New York, DC, and Chicago is a fine strategy because you have several cycles in the future and you will become a stronger candidate with each year of practice experience. The only downside is, as you said, risk of your grades dropping but if you just keep doing what you've been doing it's unlikely they drop significantly and they may in fact go up. On the whole, the attractiveness you gain as a candidate from work experience will significantly outweigh any potential minor GPA drop.