Penn clerkships Forum

[Anonymous User]

It’s the tension that arises between the CSO’s interests and yours - if the goal is to maximize how many Penn students get clerkships, it makes some sense to spread out prof calls and therefore hopefully spread out influence. Still shitty in that it’s blatantly trying to maximize school numbers rather than help individual students.

[Anonymous User]

It’s the tension that arises between the CSO’s interests and yours - if the goal is to maximize how many Penn students get clerkships, it makes some sense to spread out prof calls and therefore hopefully spread out influence. Still shitty in that it’s blatantly trying to maximize school numbers rather than help individual students.

I think there's a difference between triaging support IMO and actively sabotaging one candidate (even if the "sabotage" is relatively minor).

[Anonymous User]

What are my odds of getting a clerkship in NY ... rumor is that no one has a NY clerkship from the 3L class

[Anonymous User]

It’s the tension that arises between the CSO’s interests and yours - if the goal is to maximize how many Penn students get clerkships, it makes some sense to spread out prof calls and therefore hopefully spread out influence. Still shitty in that it’s blatantly trying to maximize school numbers rather than help individual students.

I think there's a difference between triaging support IMO and actively sabotaging one candidate (even if the "sabotage" is relatively minor).

I mean you can’t triage without deciding some students don’t get the support they want, on the theory that if one prof calls for multiple students, it dilutes the strength of their recommendation for all (which you can disagree with, of course, but I’ve definitely come across this belief, including among faculty). But again, not justifying it - just pointing out that it’s what happens when the school prioritizes its interest in clerkship stats over its interest in serving individual students.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

This kind of stuff is so frustrating. Half the time I feel like the ~collegial~ shit just means no one is willing to give you real information. Just be happy and settle for what you can figure out on your own, while those better at forming the right connections early on get insider info.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

This kind of stuff is so frustrating. Half the time I feel like the ~collegial~ shit just means no one is willing to give you real information. Just be happy and settle for what you can figure out on your own, while those better at forming the right connections early on get insider info.

Honeslty I think a lot of this "collegial" shit goes out the window when it comes to clerkships. Sure it is more collegial for those who are doing firm jobs because there is more to go around, but I remember in law school that those interested in clerkships were innately the more competitive ones and the whole thing turns into a toxic shit show where people are like gossiping about who has what, etc... and even making like excel sheets of people.

[Anonymous User]

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

This kind of stuff is so frustrating. Half the time I feel like the ~collegial~ shit just means no one is willing to give you real information. Just be happy and settle for what you can figure out on your own, while those better at forming the right connections early on get insider info.

Honeslty I think a lot of this "collegial" shit goes out the window when it comes to clerkships. Sure it is more collegial for those who are doing firm jobs because there is more to go around, but I remember in law school that those interested in clerkships were innately the more competitive ones and the whole thing turns into a toxic shit show where people are like gossiping about who has what, etc... and even making like excel sheets of people.

At Penn?

[Anonymous User]

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

This kind of stuff is so frustrating. Half the time I feel like the ~collegial~ shit just means no one is willing to give you real information. Just be happy and settle for what you can figure out on your own, while those better at forming the right connections early on get insider info.

Honeslty I think a lot of this "collegial" shit goes out the window when it comes to clerkships. Sure it is more collegial for those who are doing firm jobs because there is more to go around, but I remember in law school that those interested in clerkships were innately the more competitive ones and the whole thing turns into a toxic shit show where people are like gossiping about who has what, etc... and even making like excel sheets of people.

At Penn?

Yes, and I assume for most schools. Although idk, I don't necessarily have first hand knowledge of what goes on at like Columbia or Michigan or what not.

[Anonymous User]

Be super, super careful with the clerkship office (3L here). They do really cute things like send out the wrong cover letters to, say, at least eight different judges so you end up getting dinged from opportunities that might have otherwise been on the table (happened not only to me but to *six other* classmates). So much fun. Thrilled.

[Anonymous User]

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

This kind of stuff is so frustrating. Half the time I feel like the ~collegial~ shit just means no one is willing to give you real information. Just be happy and settle for what you can figure out on your own, while those better at forming the right connections early on get insider info.

Honeslty I think a lot of this "collegial" shit goes out the window when it comes to clerkships. Sure it is more collegial for those who are doing firm jobs because there is more to go around, but I remember in law school that those interested in clerkships were innately the more competitive ones and the whole thing turns into a toxic shit show where people are like gossiping about who has what, etc... and even making like excel sheets of people.

At Penn?

Yes, and I assume for most schools. Although idk, I don't necessarily have first hand knowledge of what goes on at like Columbia or Michigan or what not.

At HYS, it's very competitive/gunnery, especially for competitive positions. The school live tracks a list of who has what clerkship, which makes the competitiveness even worse.

[Anonymous User]

This is cynical, but I think they’re right to do this. Really respected folks can dilute the impact of their calls if they make calls for too many students—difficult for a judge to take the rec seriously. And yeah, some students might have no chance at all without the call, but if their chances are so slim even with a call, it’s not really worth it.

This makes no sense. The actual recommenders obviously already understand this and care about their own reputations and credibility. They don’t need a committee to tell them how to best allocate their influence. If I were a professor, I’d tell this committee to take a hike. It would actually probably make me want to make a call for that applicant even more honestly.

It’s incredibly inappropriate for a committee of law professors, who presumably don’t even know most applicants well, to proactively discourage professors from calling on behalf of certain applicants and to instead favor the committee’s choices.

This kind of stuff is so frustrating. Half the time I feel like the ~collegial~ shit just means no one is willing to give you real information. Just be happy and settle for what you can figure out on your own, while those better at forming the right connections early on get insider info.

Honeslty I think a lot of this "collegial" shit goes out the window when it comes to clerkships. Sure it is more collegial for those who are doing firm jobs because there is more to go around, but I remember in law school that those interested in clerkships were innately the more competitive ones and the whole thing turns into a toxic shit show where people are like gossiping about who has what, etc... and even making like excel sheets of people.

At Penn?

Yes, and I assume for most schools. Although idk, I don't necessarily have first hand knowledge of what goes on at like Columbia or Michigan or what not.

At HYS, it's very competitive/gunnery, especially for competitive positions. The school live tracks a list of who has what clerkship, which makes the competitiveness even worse.

Students keeping a list is crazy though. And to the above, I doubt any 3L has a clerkship in NYC for immediately postgrad but I thought that was a market where almost all judges require experience.

[Anonymous User]

Be super, super careful with the clerkship office (3L here). They do really cute things like send out the wrong cover letters to, say, at least eight different judges so you end up getting dinged from opportunities that might have otherwise been on the table (happened not only to me but to *six other* classmates). So much fun. Thrilled.

Oh yes, 2Ls (or at least some) have heard about this debacle. Nightmare. Seems like that’s fritton’s main job too.

[Anonymous User]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

[randymarsh746]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

34 circuit and 48 district from May 2021 to April 2022. Source:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php

Edit: I'm not sure if these stats are limited to the 3L class or include 2Ls and alumni.

[Anonymous User]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

34 circuit and 48 district from May 2021 to April 2022. Source:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php

Edit: I'm not sure if these stats are limited to the 3L class or include 2Ls and alumni.

That takes into account all Penn students I think. All things considered, though, based on the negativity in this thread that feels pretty good given Penn's class size no? Basically on par with NYU and Columbia I feel like? Although maybe that speaks less to Penn skills and more to NYU and Columbia's lack of skills unsure.

[Anonymous User]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

34 circuit and 48 district from May 2021 to April 2022. Source:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php

Edit: I'm not sure if these stats are limited to the 3L class or include 2Ls and alumni.

That takes into account all Penn students I think. All things considered, though, based on the negativity in this thread that feels pretty good given Penn's class size no? Basically on par with NYU and Columbia I feel like? Although maybe that speaks less to Penn skills and more to NYU and Columbia's lack of skills unsure.

NYU's eventual clerkship rate is about 20%.

[Anonymous User]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

34 circuit and 48 district from May 2021 to April 2022. Source:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php

Edit: I'm not sure if these stats are limited to the 3L class or include 2Ls and alumni.

That takes into account all Penn students I think. All things considered, though, based on the negativity in this thread that feels pretty good given Penn's class size no? Basically on par with NYU and Columbia I feel like? Although maybe that speaks less to Penn skills and more to NYU and Columbia's lack of skills unsure.

NYU's eventual clerkship rate is about 20%.

Yes and Penn seems to reach that too based on the numbers?

[Anonymous User]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

34 circuit and 48 district from May 2021 to April 2022. Source:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php

Edit: I'm not sure if these stats are limited to the 3L class or include 2Ls and alumni.

That takes into account all Penn students I think. All things considered, though, based on the negativity in this thread that feels pretty good given Penn's class size no? Basically on par with NYU and Columbia I feel like? Although maybe that speaks less to Penn skills and more to NYU and Columbia's lack of skills unsure.

Only 28 were clerking immediately post-grad, and that includes state clerkships. Penn really should do better than NYU/CLS given we are a bit less NY-focused.

[Anonymous User]

So does anyone know how many 3Ls actually got clerkships last year, in spite of Chris

34 circuit and 48 district from May 2021 to April 2022. Source:
https://www.law.upenn.edu/careers/emplo ... istics.php

Edit: I'm not sure if these stats are limited to the 3L class or include 2Ls and alumni.

That takes into account all Penn students I think. All things considered, though, based on the negativity in this thread that feels pretty good given Penn's class size no? Basically on par with NYU and Columbia I feel like? Although maybe that speaks less to Penn skills and more to NYU and Columbia's lack of skills unsure.

Only 28 were clerking immediately post-grad, and that includes state clerkships. Penn really should do better than NYU/CLS given we are a bit less NY-focused.

Penn is though? NYU had 25 people clerking immediately after (including state clerkships) and they have a much bigger class size.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't want EDPA you're really screwed out of Penn ... thats the fact

[Anonymous User]

Who should I ask to be a recommender
How do I know how long a clerkship is for
How many clerks does each judge have

[Anonymous User]

following

[Anonymous User]

following

hmmmm