Penn clerkships Forum

[Anonymous User]

Is it just me or is the Penn clerkships office totally incompetent? I need help and don't know where to turn. The one thing Ive gleaned it I cant rely on the school which is a shame because I am paying so much in tuition.

[Anonymous User]

3L here. Your assessment is correct. The insistence on pretending GPA doesn't exist, among other issues, makes C.F. even worse than other schools' clerkship advisors IMO. What do you need help with?

[Anonymous User]

Is it just me or is the Penn clerkships office totally incompetent? I need help and don't know where to turn. The one thing Ive gleaned it I cant rely on the school which is a shame because I am paying so much in tuition.

The reality is that almost all clerkship offices are useless. The bigger issue at Penn is that the faculty, outside of a few notable exceptions, is not particularly helpful either.

The best way to get useful advice is to talk to upperclassmen who have clerkships lined up or to reach out to young Penn grads who clerked. But honestly, there isn't that much useful information to find out.

[Anonymous User]

Other schools at least give some information about the grades, etc of students who clerk. Fritton just tells everyone to apply to state courts as well as federal and won’t help people figure out what it takes to be competitive

[Anonymous User]

How do I get a federal district court clerkship in the area? I'll take EDPA, New Jersey, whatever there is. What do I need to do ?

[Anonymous User]

How do I get a federal district court clerkship in the area? I'll take EDPA, New Jersey, whatever there is. What do I need to do ?

(I apologize if it sounds like I am talking down, I'm just going to operate on the assumption you know nothing about clerkships). If your grades are competitive. (idk what that is in Penn someone step in here—maybe top 25%?), go to this website called Oscar.com and make an account. Then ask three Professors for LORs and put their information in on the LOR aspect of OSCAR. Then you can look up district court judges and apply to them. However, you will notice that not all judges have positions on OSCAR. This is ok and it means they will take applications either through email or through physical mail in their chambers. Look at the court websites and they will often—although not always—have information on the judge and how they hire. As far as how to deal with LORs there are now two ways to deal with this. (1) maybe you have the physical LORs and then you can send it yourself; (2) maybe your Professors do not want you to see the LOR and it is on file with the clerkship office. If that is the case, talk to them and tell them what addresses—physical or email—to send them too. Some judges will have zero information on how they hire. If that is the case, I would just mail to chambers just in case your app catches their eye, but do not expect much.

[Anonymous User]

How do I get a federal district court clerkship in the area? I'll take EDPA, New Jersey, whatever there is. What do I need to do ?

I'd say around a 3.7+ after 2L is going to be competitive. But grades don't guarantee anything and I know people who landed these clerkships with far worse grades. Many EDPA and DNJ judges care about local connections. And simply attending Penn doesn't really count as one. Applicants who are from Eastern/Middle Pennsylvania or New Jersey and plan to practice in those areas definitely get a bump. I also think judges in these districts really value recommendations from people they know, particularly practicing lawyers. The average applicant would probably have more luck in these districts with a recommendation from a well-respected practicing lawyer than a recommendation from a nationally known professor.

Also, both value work experience and some judges essentially require it.

[Anonymous User]

How about 9th, 2nd, and the D.C. Circuits?
Do I need to write letters for each judge?

[Anonymous User]

How about 9th, 2nd, and the D.C. Circuits?
Do I need to write letters for each judge?

Clerkship cover letters should be short and generic unless you have a connection. So you're usually just switching out the top.

[Anonymous User]

How about 9th, 2nd, and the D.C. Circuits?
Do I need to write letters for each judge?

I worked in one of these Circuits. Our chambers GPA cutoff for Penn was about a 3.9. We would have cared more about a well-crafted writing sample than a specific cover letter. A strong writing sample or interesting work/life experience could make up for weaker grades, but a cover letter could not. Letters of rec rarely mattered unless they were "best student ever" or from a well-known professor/another judge. I'm sure this is not the way every chambers did things, but I figured I'd give you a specific data point.

[Anonymous User]

Is it just me or is the Penn clerkships office totally incompetent? I need help and don't know where to turn. The one thing Ive gleaned it I cant rely on the school which is a shame because I am paying so much in tuition.

The reality is that almost all clerkship offices are useless. The bigger issue at Penn is that the faculty, outside of a few notable exceptions, is not particularly helpful either.

The best way to get useful advice is to talk to upperclassmen who have clerkships lined up or to reach out to young Penn grads who clerked. But honestly, there isn't that much useful information to find out.

Other schools have lengthy handbooks on applying to clerkships with school-specific data. We have this canvas page with a little bit of generic info.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

[Anonymous User]

Is it just me or is the Penn clerkships office totally incompetent? I need help and don't know where to turn. The one thing Ive gleaned it I cant rely on the school which is a shame because I am paying so much in tuition.

The reality is that almost all clerkship offices are useless. The bigger issue at Penn is that the faculty, outside of a few notable exceptions, is not particularly helpful either.

The best way to get useful advice is to talk to upperclassmen who have clerkships lined up or to reach out to young Penn grads who clerked. But honestly, there isn't that much useful information to find out.

Other schools have lengthy handbooks on applying to clerkships with school-specific data. We have this canvas page with a little bit of generic info.

At HYS and we have the same shitty generic canvas page lol

[Anonymous User]

Is it just me or is the Penn clerkships office totally incompetent? I need help and don't know where to turn. The one thing Ive gleaned it I cant rely on the school which is a shame because I am paying so much in tuition.

The reality is that almost all clerkship offices are useless. The bigger issue at Penn is that the faculty, outside of a few notable exceptions, is not particularly helpful either.

The best way to get useful advice is to talk to upperclassmen who have clerkships lined up or to reach out to young Penn grads who clerked. But honestly, there isn't that much useful information to find out.

Other schools have lengthy handbooks on applying to clerkships with school-specific data. We have this canvas page with a little bit of generic info.

At HYS and we have the same shitty generic canvas page lol

Penn OCS does like to pretend we are Harvard (new pre OCI restrictions too)

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

bump

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

[Anonymous User]

Do faculty call before or after you get the interview? This section on the clerkship page is confusing:

Chris is happy to have conversations with you about recommender and judge selection, review your application materials, and, if an interview is offered, provide information about the judge and do mock interviews. Lastly, she will stay in touch with your faculty recommenders to make sure they are aware of the interview and provide them with contact information for the judge should they wish to reach out on your behalf.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

[Anonymous User]

Do faculty call before or after you get the interview? This section on the clerkship page is confusing:

Chris is happy to have conversations with you about recommender and judge selection, review your application materials, and, if an interview is offered, provide information about the judge and do mock interviews. Lastly, she will stay in touch with your faculty recommenders to make sure they are aware of the interview and provide them with contact information for the judge should they wish to reach out on your behalf.

In theory, one of your recommenders would call before, and that helps you get the interview. Then the rest of your faculty call once you have the interview offer to vouch for you. However, that's not always how it works. Also, double check all the phone numbers in Simplicity, because I found multiple errors in the phone numbers listed.

[Anonymous User]

I had roughly a 3.8 when I applied to a few judges. I was offered multiple circuit court interviews and secured a spot in a "competitive" circuit with a non-feeder judge. I had regional ties and a unique background. No recommenders from the clerkship committee, but I had good ones nonetheless.

And ya, Chris Fritton told me to apply to state court clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by one of my recommenders that they were told by the committee not to make certain calls on my behalf that I had asked for because they were maximizing elsewhere.

Wow that's insane and wildly inappropriate if the committee is actively discouraging individual recommenders from calling. The decision to call should be left to the individual recommender. For what it's worth, I graduated a couple years ago (not sure if the committee was the same then) and I got a COA clerkship with similar grades. I know I had two recommenders putting in calls, but they were not affiliated with Penn. I don't think anyone from Penn called on my behalf.

[Anonymous User]

Do faculty call before or after you get the interview? This section on the clerkship page is confusing:

Chris is happy to have conversations with you about recommender and judge selection, review your application materials, and, if an interview is offered, provide information about the judge and do mock interviews. Lastly, she will stay in touch with your faculty recommenders to make sure they are aware of the interview and provide them with contact information for the judge should they wish to reach out on your behalf.

In theory, one of your recommenders would call before, and that helps you get the interview. Then the rest of your faculty call once you have the interview offer to vouch for you. However, that's not always how it works. Also, double check all the phone numbers in Simplicity, because I found multiple errors in the phone numbers listed.

Is there a significant benefit to this if they don’t know the judge and the judge hasn’t hired a ton from Penn? It seems like this would matter more for eg EDPA

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

Wow…

[Anonymous User]

What about less competitive circuits?

Struck out on all circuit with a 3.8+. I was not picky about location but was about timing and ensuring I heard at least one positive thing about the judge.

Don't underestimate how valuable it is to have one of the clerkship committee members writing your recommendation, and even better if you're one of their favorites. I had awesome recommenders but because they weren't on the committee...

Do you have any source for this claim that it’s particularly beneficial to have a recommender on the committee? Struve and Wolff are the only ones that I’ve heard are excellent recommenders. But I don’t think their committee membership has anything to do with that.

If your recommender knows the judge and is willing to call and push your application, it doesn’t matter if that recommender sits on some law school committee, who’s membership probably changes every year.

The key is having recommenders who are connected and willing to advocate for your application. And I do think this is an area where Penn is frankly pretty weak compared to other peer schools.

I was told by a recommender that the committee essentially told them not to make certain calls because they were maximizing elsewhere.

Wow…

If it makes you feel any better I'm at NYU and this sort of happened to me too (although it wasn't the clerkship's office, but some other organization made up of professors basically they asked one of my recommenders to push me to someone else because they wanted to save this person for another student). I ended up alright, but I was kind of floored by it. I think when you get to like these tier of schools where clerkships are attainable but there isn't a ton to go around like in HYS (although HYS has its own issues I suppose), things can get extremely toxic. I had talked around and apparently this same Professor also pushed someone to go to another judge instead. Our actual clerkship office, though, is made up of nice people. Shitty weird orgs/Professors/etc... exist at every school, I think this is also a problem with career services and lying to students who would objectively be better off if they did pre-OCI not to.