Cravath v. Sullivan & Cromwell (NYC Lit) Forum

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

This person is either a 1L or 80-years-old.

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

Why do you consider Cravath to be the best firm? Serious question. I really don’t understand what differentiates them from like 10 other New York firms right now other than their rotation system.

[Anonymous User]

Again, this Cravath is way better guy is a troll or a 1L. Don't engage.

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

In the sense that Wachtell is the best because they pay the most yes absolutely. I would view lit at a big corporate law firm as more of a transitional phase into a boutique--esp since no one is making partner anymore--in that respect early on Cravath is definitely giving you the best training and some of the most interesting work (if you like antitrust and corporate litigation). I still view Cravath as a cut above the rest even if slightly, especially for juniors. People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein. This soundbite that all firms are the same is frankly not true--its more like there are tiers of firms. But materially the top firms--cravath, PW, s&c--arent going to be so different from one another. Plenty of people I know at V30 firms have 0 work in the lit department or its all client development crap.

Lit has a lot of dimensions for consideration when picking a firm, are you going to clerk? Will you clerk once or twice? do you want to work in government? do you want to go plaintiff side one day? Are you trying to make partner? Do you want to do securities, white collar, or antitrust litigation? Do you want to be a generalist or specialist? What market do you want to ultimately practice in? Are you in love with discovery and the trial process? Is there a specific individual you want to work for? Do you want to be at the whims of rotations, open market, central staffing? Do you want to control your destiny? Where did you like the mid levels and seniors you met the most (you will 100% interact with them more than partners)?

Even for a firm like Gibson for example, they have a national reputation, but the New York office's work is quite different from the LA and DC offices.

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein

Once when I was working late in my office at the Tier 3 firm we call Davis Polk I recall a senior partner coming in crying. I asked him what happened and he said he once again got bested by a Cravath summer in oral argument in front of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The truth is, he told me, is that at Cravath by giving their summers substantive and real experience during trials which is just something that shit firms like Davis Polk or, god forbid Ropes & Gray, cannot do, just sets up the summer associates to be such good litigators that by mid-June their summer associates are just running circles around other law firm partners. Through tears, he cursed himself for not gunning for Cravath when he had the chance because at Cravath, unlike other biglaw firms, the summer associates get to go to trial where they make real, substantive contributions.

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein

Once when I was working late in my office at the Tier 3 firm we call Davis Polk I recall a senior partner coming in crying. I asked him what happened and he said he once again got bested by a Cravath summer in oral argument in front of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The truth is, he told me, is that at Cravath by giving their summers substantive and real experience during trials which is just something that shit firms like Davis Polk or, god forbid Ropes & Gray, cannot do, just sets up the summer associates to be such good litigators that by mid-June their summer associates are just running circles around other law firm partners. Through tears, he cursed himself for not gunning for Cravath when he had the chance because at Cravath, unlike other biglaw firms, the summer associates get to go to trial where they make real, substantive contributions.

A work of art

[Anonymous User]

It's really very easy to prove I'm right. Cravath simply dominates every important practice group.

https://chambers.com/legal-guide/usa-5/download

[Anonymous User]

It's really very easy to prove I'm right. Cravath simply dominates every important practice group.

https://chambers.com/legal-guide/usa-5/download

this is just a link to the main guide but Cravath and SullCrom are both Band 1 in every major practice group lol

[axiomaticapiary]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein

Once when I was working late in my office at the Tier 3 firm we call Davis Polk I recall a senior partner coming in crying. I asked him what happened and he said he once again got bested by a Cravath summer in oral argument in front of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The truth is, he told me, is that at Cravath by giving their summers substantive and real experience during trials which is just something that shit firms like Davis Polk or, god forbid Ropes & Gray, cannot do, just sets up the summer associates to be such good litigators that by mid-June their summer associates are just running circles around other law firm partners. Through tears, he cursed himself for not gunning for Cravath when he had the chance because at Cravath, unlike other biglaw firms, the summer associates get to go to trial where they make real, substantive contributions.

This website sucks but sometimes it is just so fucking funny

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein

Once when I was working late in my office at the Tier 3 firm we call Davis Polk I recall a senior partner coming in crying. I asked him what happened and he said he once again got bested by a Cravath summer in oral argument in front of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The truth is, he told me, is that at Cravath by giving their summers substantive and real experience during trials which is just something that shit firms like Davis Polk or, god forbid Ropes & Gray, cannot do, just sets up the summer associates to be such good litigators that by mid-June their summer associates are just running circles around other law firm partners. Through tears, he cursed himself for not gunning for Cravath when he had the chance because at Cravath, unlike other biglaw firms, the summer associates get to go to trial where they make real, substantive contributions.

This website sucks but sometimes it is just so fucking funny

The entire previous conversation is very stupid, but I actually know a Cravath summer that did legitimate work at a trial during their summer. Said summer also is probably going to clerk for SCOTUS though, so I wouldn't exactly say that experience is replicable.

[DanBoMingLi]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein

Once when I was working late in my office at the Tier 3 firm we call Davis Polk I recall a senior partner coming in crying. I asked him what happened and he said he once again got bested by a Cravath summer in oral argument in front of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The truth is, he told me, is that at Cravath by giving their summers substantive and real experience during trials which is just something that shit firms like Davis Polk or, god forbid Ropes & Gray, cannot do, just sets up the summer associates to be such good litigators that by mid-June their summer associates are just running circles around other law firm partners. Through tears, he cursed himself for not gunning for Cravath when he had the chance because at Cravath, unlike other biglaw firms, the summer associates get to go to trial where they make real, substantive contributions.

This website sucks but sometimes it is just so fucking funny

The entire previous conversation is very stupid, but I actually know a Cravath summer that did legitimate work at a trial during their summer. Said summer also is probably going to clerk for SCOTUS though, so I wouldn't exactly say that experience is replicable.

I mean, “work [on] a trial” and “playing a big role” are pretty different. If my group happened to have a big trial scheduled during the summer program, I’d totally farm out some of the small tasks to summers and bring a handful to sit in the peanut gallery each day. This seems like a great low effort way to give summers a unique experience to talk up to their friends.

The troll from earlier seemed to be talking about Cravath summers getting stand up or otherwise major trial experience, which is absurd. I’d guess your friend’s experience fell somewhere in the middle, which would make sense if she’s a real standout.

[Anonymous User]

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

They already made their decision, but I don't really get the Cravath is tOp TiEr. Wachtell is clearly the best in NYC and then there's a handful of roughly equivalent firms that people can have idiosyncratic preferences among. It isn't 1980 anymore.

People go to trial as summers and play a big role therein

Once when I was working late in my office at the Tier 3 firm we call Davis Polk I recall a senior partner coming in crying. I asked him what happened and he said he once again got bested by a Cravath summer in oral argument in front of the Second Circuit Court of Appeals. The truth is, he told me, is that at Cravath by giving their summers substantive and real experience during trials which is just something that shit firms like Davis Polk or, god forbid Ropes & Gray, cannot do, just sets up the summer associates to be such good litigators that by mid-June their summer associates are just running circles around other law firm partners. Through tears, he cursed himself for not gunning for Cravath when he had the chance because at Cravath, unlike other biglaw firms, the summer associates get to go to trial where they make real, substantive contributions.

This website sucks but sometimes it is just so fucking funny

The entire previous conversation is very stupid, but I actually know a Cravath summer that did legitimate work at a trial during their summer. Said summer also is probably going to clerk for SCOTUS though, so I wouldn't exactly say that experience is replicable.

I mean, “work [on] a trial” and “playing a big role” are pretty different. If my group happened to have a big trial scheduled during the summer program, I’d totally farm out some of the small tasks to summers and bring a handful to sit in the peanut gallery each day. This seems like a great low effort way to give summers a unique experience to talk up to their friends.

The troll from earlier seemed to be talking about Cravath summers getting stand up or otherwise major trial experience, which is absurd. I’d guess your friend’s experience fell somewhere in the middle, which would make sense if she’s a real standout.

FWIW I'm the anon who wrote the Davis Polk shitpost. Yes this is exactly what I was talking about. I'm sorry but there is no way a Cravath summer is playing a substantive role in an actual trial. Maybe what happened here is that a Cravath summer was brought along to a trial and got to sit quietly and observe and do some tasks and then the partner told him he did an amazing job and we could not have done it without you (such candid, substantive, and raw feedback is the norm for summers). This summer then—I assume—made a TLS post saying Cravath summers get substantive responsibilities in trials. But what do I know, I don't work at a V1 law firm.

[Anonymous User]

during my csm SA years ago i did many hours of substantive work leading up to and during a trial. i say this not as a badge of pride but as a reflection of how the firm is run. from what i could tell, they didnt give me that work because they were invested in my development as a young lawyer or were confident in my abilities. they did so because they were severely understaffed, the case was at a crisis point, and they genuinely needed me to do associate-level work at associate-level hours because (at least at that point) they had too much work with too few associates and refused to hire laterals to fill the gaps like any normal firm.

so yes, you may get substantive trial work as a summer. but for all the wrong reasons

[Anonymous User]

Partner at a big, litigation-focused firm. Totally anecdotal, but my perception is that CSM and Paul Weiss are the best "big" NY firms for bread-and-butter big ticket litigation, that WLRK is extraordinarily strong at Delaware Chancery type litigation and white-collar but not really at much else, and that S&C shows up in a bunch of massive MDLs and securities cases but doesn't do much else. DPW and STB are really not players in the litigation space, and that's also true of most other NY-based firms.

For non-NY firms, I view the following as top-tier litigation shops with a national presence: K&E; Latham; Gibson; Wilmer; Quinn; O'Melveny; Jones Day; Jenner; Boies (though it is rapidly declining); and then a bunch of boutiques and quasi-boutiques (which I think includes firms like MTO, Williams & Connolly, etc.). Certain firms are really good at more niche litigation specialties (e.g., Faegre, Dechert, and Shook Hardy for products liability), but those firms are not across-the-board excellent in the same way.

[Anonymous User]

Partner at a big, litigation-focused firm. Totally anecdotal, but my perception is that CSM and Paul Weiss are the best "big" NY firms for bread-and-butter big ticket litigation, that WLRK is extraordinarily strong at Delaware Chancery type litigation and white-collar but not really at much else, and that S&C shows up in a bunch of massive MDLs and securities cases but doesn't do much else. DPW and STB are really not players in the litigation space, and that's also true of most other NY-based firms.

For non-NY firms, I view the following as top-tier litigation shops with a national presence: K&E; Latham; Gibson; Wilmer; Quinn; O'Melveny; Jones Day; Jenner; Boies (though it is rapidly declining); and then a bunch of boutiques and quasi-boutiques (which I think includes firms like MTO, Williams & Connolly, etc.). Certain firms are really good at more niche litigation specialties (e.g., Faegre, Dechert, and Shook Hardy for products liability), but those firms are not across-the-board excellent in the same way.

Why is Boies declining? I know David Boies is getting up there but why can't the firm keep afloat?

[Anonymous User]

Partner at a big, litigation-focused firm. Totally anecdotal, but my perception is that CSM and Paul Weiss are the best "big" NY firms for bread-and-butter big ticket litigation, that WLRK is extraordinarily strong at Delaware Chancery type litigation and white-collar but not really at much else, and that S&C shows up in a bunch of massive MDLs and securities cases but doesn't do much else. DPW and STB are really not players in the litigation space, and that's also true of most other NY-based firms.

For non-NY firms, I view the following as top-tier litigation shops with a national presence: K&E; Latham; Gibson; Wilmer; Quinn; O'Melveny; Jones Day; Jenner; Boies (though it is rapidly declining); and then a bunch of boutiques and quasi-boutiques (which I think includes firms like MTO, Williams & Connolly, etc.). Certain firms are really good at more niche litigation specialties (e.g., Faegre, Dechert, and Shook Hardy for products liability), but those firms are not across-the-board excellent in the same way.

Why is Boies declining? I know David Boies is getting up there but why can't the firm keep afloat?

They’ve had a series of succession crises that have led to tons of partner departures and associates and potential associates have fled the firm as a result