My odds without geographic flexibility Forum

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My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:21 pm

Hi. I'm a 2L who transferred to a lower T14. Got straight As my first semester here. On a secondary journal.

I would be interested in doing a federal district court clerkship in a small geographic area, which is in like the lower 1/3 of most popular places to apply to (so, relatively un-sought-after, but still lots of apps), from the numbers I've seen. I have strong geographic ties there.

If I keep the same grades up, what are the odds I'd strike out if I only applied to the 5ish district court judges meeting my criteria?

Thanks!

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:30 am

I mean you definitely would be a good candidate for those. The issue is that applying can be kind of a crapshoot so I would try to expand beyond 5 judges unless you have a really solid in that translates to a call that would get your app off the stack. These judges may get less than an SDNY judge gets, but they still get a lot which leaves you at risk of never getting discovered if you are just cold applying.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by nixy » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:48 am

Agreed with the above. You are a good candidate for those 5ish clerkships, but the odds of striking out are still very high just because of the numbers. You probably just need to decide whether your top priority is being in that location or clerking.

Also, as a transfer, depending a little on where you did 1L, you might have a better shot applying as a 3L/grad than on the traditional timeline.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:44 am

OP here. Thanks to you both for your replies, they makes sense. I'm definitely working on figuring out whether one year of geography or clerking matters more to me, and getting a sense of my odds here is very helpful for my thought process. Also, starting to wonder about state supreme court as an option.

A couple follow ups:

(1) Is my understanding correct that because of the bar on declining offers, there would be no way for me to prioritize one app over another? Like, say I expanded to 20 judges: no way to prevent the possibility that I could get an offer in a place I'd less want to be before hearing back where I'd more like to be, and be bound to take it? (This is assuming all judges are on the 2L summer OSCAR plan).

(2) Normally, I'd be happy to send a few longshot apps in for a job I knew I might not get. But seems like the process for clerkship recommenders quite involved here. Is it so involved, in your opinions, that avoiding wasting their time might be a reason to consider not applying at all if I decide I'm so limited?

Thank you!
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chokenhauer

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Chokenhauer » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:43 pm

Do you know anyone in the area who clerked for one of those judges? I clerked in a similar area, and the judges really valued the word of someone they trust in that community. Your application would definitely be considered in my judge’s chambers nonetheless.

One thing to note is that I’ve noticed that judges in those areas can have odd hiring requirements, such as requiring four-year terms or only hiring someone who plans to practice in that immediate geographic region. The more intel you can gather on their hiring preferences, the better.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:04 pm

I was in a similar situation as an applicant.

1. How hard are your ties? If you plan to practice in this place, and have summered there, I would try to work connections to lock something up before the Plan. Judges make exceptions for exceptional candidates, and a top T14 student with a hard commitment to practice locally is an exceptional candidate for most small jurisdictions.

2. Even if there are five judges, one might hire only one term clerk, one might hire only multi-year clerks (very common in smaller jurisdictions), etc. I would make an OSCAR account and try to figure out exactly how many spots there are.

3. If you plan to practice in the state, and your SSC is good, it’s worth applying. My home state’s SSC is definitely seen as a good clerkship and gives you good connections, but it wouldn’t have as much pull as a federal clerkship out of state. They would also set you up well for another clerkship if you’re open to doubling. Be cognizant that SSC clerkships are usually on different hiring schedules from federal ones.

4. Is there any reason why you aren’t considering federal appellate clerkships?

5. Recommenders, clerkship offices, and personal connections can try to push your app to certain judges and let them know they’re your top choice. So you have a bit of control even on the Plan.

6. The process is too random—even with a perfect app—for five apps to make anyone safe. So the question would be whether it’s worth the risk of not ending up with anything to you.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:27 am

Chokenhauer wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:43 pm
Do you know anyone in the area who clerked for one of those judges? I clerked in a similar area, and the judges really valued the word of someone they trust in that community. Your application would definitely be considered in my judge’s chambers nonetheless.
This is excellent advice. You have the credentials, but that's like 10% of the battle. You need to make sure your credentials are seen and your reasons for wanting to clerk are known. So you absolutely need to start networking with the judges' clerk networks ASAP and demonstrate your interest in living in that area. Have a Professor or a locally connected individual make a call on your behalf.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by lavarman84 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:44 am
OP here. Thanks to you both for your replies, they makes sense. I'm definitely working on figuring out whether one year of geography or clerking matters more to me, and getting a sense of my odds here is very helpful for my thought process. Also, starting to wonder about state supreme court as an option.

A couple follow ups:

(1) Is my understanding correct that because of the bar on declining offers, there would be no way for me to prioritize one app over another? Like, say I expanded to 20 judges: no way to prevent the possibility that I could get an offer in a place I'd less want to be before hearing back where I'd more like to be, and be bound to take it? (This is assuming all judges are on the 2L summer OSCAR plan).

(2) Normally, I'd be happy to send a few longshot apps in for a job I knew I might not get. But seems like the process for clerkship recommenders quite involved here. Is it so involved, in your opinions, that avoiding wasting their time might be a reason to consider not applying at all if I decide I'm so limited?

Thank you!
1. This is something law schools say. There may be judges out there who would be offended by you declining their offer, but it's not a hard rule. I clerked for two judges, and neither would have been bothered by an applicant declining the offer (particularly if they did so because they were accepting an offer to clerk in their hometown).

That all said, it may be hard to say no when you get an offer to clerk for a judge you like and you have no guarantees you'll get an offer in your preferred geographic area. But that's a first-world problem.

2. No. Just go for it if you want it. Your preferred recommenders can turn you down if they don't want to make an effort. If they say yes, they know what they're in for.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:08 pm

nixy wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:48 am
Agreed with the above. You are a good candidate for those 5ish clerkships, but the odds of striking out are still very high just because of the numbers. You probably just need to decide whether your top priority is being in that location or clerking.

Also, as a transfer, depending a little on where you did 1L, you might have a better shot applying as a 3L/grad than on the traditional timeline.
Not to pinball the conversation - but could you elaborate a little more on how where an individual did their 1L would affect a transfer's apps? Trying to suss out where my expectations should sit

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nixy

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by nixy » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:08 pm
nixy wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:48 am
Agreed with the above. You are a good candidate for those 5ish clerkships, but the odds of striking out are still very high just because of the numbers. You probably just need to decide whether your top priority is being in that location or clerking.

Also, as a transfer, depending a little on where you did 1L, you might have a better shot applying as a 3L/grad than on the traditional timeline.
Not to pinball the conversation - but could you elaborate a little more on how where an individual did their 1L would affect a transfer's apps? Trying to suss out where my expectations should sit
I don’t have personal experience with this (and don’t personally judge transfers on their 1L school), but am going off of some of the discussions I’ve seen here. If your 1L year was at a school that a judge doesn’t normally hire from, for instance, they might want to see more grades from the school you transferred to, to get a better sense of where you fall grades-wise. Or they might not care at all given that you would have had good grades to be able to transfer, but people have raised it as a possibility. The other issue is being able to develop relationships with profs at the new school to get good LORs.

So it may not make any difference at all, I just throw it out there.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:31 am

This is OP. Thanks to everyone for your input. I’m definitely going to start networking hard!

Final question: How time-bound should I view this choice as being? Like, is it unrealistic to think I could reapply more broadly 10-20 years from now if my priorities were to shift significantly?

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:02 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:31 am
This is OP. Thanks to everyone for your input. I’m definitely going to start networking hard!

Final question: How time-bound should I view this choice as being? Like, is it unrealistic to think I could reapply more broadly 10-20 years from now if my priorities were to shift significantly?
I guess it depends on what being time bound means to you. If someone asked me without context if they're time bound I would say no, but if having to apply in the next 10 years is being time bound then yes I would say you're time bound. Would not really plan on being able to do a clerkship in 2040 if you are a 2L right now. But hey, I know one person who clerked went they were like 45 for a judge that was younger than them so nothing is impossible I guess.

nixy

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by nixy » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:38 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:31 am
This is OP. Thanks to everyone for your input. I’m definitely going to start networking hard!

Final question: How time-bound should I view this choice as being? Like, is it unrealistic to think I could reapply more broadly 10-20 years from now if my priorities were to shift significantly?
While many judges like clerks with experience, I don’t think they generally hire clerks with *that* much experience, except perhaps as career clerks (who would probably have clerked already). I’m also not sure whether clerking 10-20 years out would be worth it. Purely for the experience of clerking, sure, with some judges that would be worth it, but you will have advanced enough in your career, it would be a little weird.

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Re: My odds without geographic flexibility

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:24 pm

OP responding-- that makes sense! I so appreciate everyone's time and input. This has been really, really informative and helpful for me!

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