Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps Forum

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Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:30 pm

I'm at HLS. I'm not quite magna but close, with a black letter heavy curriculum and H's in the "important" classes (fed courts, admin, crim pro). I'm not on HLR, but involved in 2 secondary journals, RA for 2 profs, and TF for another. Those profs wrote my LOR and one was calling on my behalf. Not diverse or fedsoc. Strong public university for UG but definitely not HYPSM.

Applied incredibly broadly with COA and narrowly with district (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, California districts), total of 120 apps. Completely struck out. Like didn't get a single interview. I've sent out some applications this year but still no interviews. Kinda blindsided me since our clerkship office indicated I was competitive at COA/competitive districts and could draw a pretty tailored list.

Any advice where I went astray? I've met with CSO but it didn't really help diagnose issues in my app. Mostly worried either LOR problems (I still work for the profs so surprised if they wrote bad LOR) or that I just wildly overestimated my competitiveness without HLR/magna.

Also, going forward - what should I do to make my app more competitive? I've accepted an offer to do lit/white collar at a v5 in NYC. Thinking I might work a few years and then re-apply, but not sure if that will make me any more competitive (especially at EDNY/SDNY/CA2)

Thanks!

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:30 pm
I'm at HLS. I'm not quite magna but close, with a black letter heavy curriculum and H's in the "important" classes (fed courts, admin, crim pro). I'm not on HLR, but involved in 2 secondary journals, RA for 2 profs, and TF for another. Those profs wrote my LOR and one was calling on my behalf. Not diverse or fedsoc. Strong public university for UG but definitely not HYPSM.

Applied incredibly broadly with COA and narrowly with district (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, California districts), total of 120 apps. Completely struck out. Like didn't get a single interview. I've sent out some applications this year but still no interviews. Kinda blindsided me since our clerkship office indicated I was competitive at COA/competitive districts and could draw a pretty tailored list.

Any advice where I went astray? I've met with CSO but it didn't really help diagnose issues in my app. Mostly worried either LOR problems (I still work for the profs so surprised if they wrote bad LOR) or that I just wildly overestimated my competitiveness without HLR/magna.

Also, going forward - what should I do to make my app more competitive? I've accepted an offer to do lit/white collar at a v5 in NYC. Thinking I might work a few years and then re-apply, but not sure if that will make me any more competitive (especially at EDNY/SDNY/CA2)

Thanks!
I was in a similar situation as you, and I felt really disappointed when it happened too, but I can almost guarantee that you will get plenty of interviews once you start working. I know it's hard to hear that you have a strong application and that you just have to keep applying, but clerkship apps require luck and a lot of persistence. Keep applying, talking to your professors, and the interviews will come.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by tq4451 » Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:42 am

The title of this post is quite dramatic. Do you have any other personal hooks? Couldn't leave those markets for district?

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:05 am

Not fedsoc and Harvard? I'm an experienced government lawyer and I'd be salivating at your application. So keep your head up. Who knows what happened but it sounds to me like you were just unlucky.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by lavarman84 » Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:18 am

What is applying broadly for COAs? Because 120 total apps factoring in district courts doesn't sound THAT broad. But maybe I'm overestimating the number of district court apps you sent (or you didn't want to clerk for conservative circuit judges, which is understandable). Either ways, you have the credentials. Just keep persevering.

You could always have somebody you trust and respect review your writing sample and resume. You could also try tailoring cover letters more. (I know some people write barebones cover letters, which is fine, but you never know what will catch a judge's or clerk's eye in this idiosyncratic process.)

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:54 am

lavarman84 wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 11:18 am
What is applying broadly for COAs? Because 120 total apps factoring in district courts doesn't sound THAT broad. But maybe I'm overestimating the number of district court apps you sent (or you didn't want to clerk for conservative circuit judges, which is understandable). Either ways, you have the credentials. Just keep persevering.

You could always have somebody you trust and respect review your writing sample and resume. You could also try tailoring cover letters more. (I know some people write barebones cover letters, which is fine, but you never know what will catch a judge's or clerk's eye in this idiosyncratic process.)
probably around 90/100 COA applications (maybe up to 115/120 after continued applying) - pretty much every circuit across the country!

I def went the barebones route, I will consider shifting that up!

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:02 pm

tq4451 wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:42 am
The title of this post is quite dramatic. Do you have any other personal hooks? Couldn't leave those markets for district?
Yeah, apologies for the dramatics - took this pretty rough and that definitely bled through into the titling.

I had personal hooks to some of the districts/COA that I had applied to (from/grew up in the city), but to no avail!

In terms of going forward, I have concerns around whether clerking at a random district would be justified by the career benefits after 2-3 years of work. Seems like there might be diminishing returns

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:03 pm

If it makes you feel any better I'm at a T6 with top 5% and have an leadership (not EIC) Law Review position and struck out too basically applying the same way you did (broad COAs, narrow districts). Figure, it's a numbers game and for those of us who aren't feeder competitive, we just got to keep applying. Also felt like a failure around July/August especially since my clerkship office actually said I was underestimating myself and should apply narrower, so it felt like an extra punch in the gut.

Now a few months later, I've gained more perspective and realized my doom and gloom was premature and I have a whole career ahead of me (including right now). To keep applying. Talked to a lot of upper classmen who were in similar positions and they got great positions eventually.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:03 pm
If it makes you feel any better I'm at a T6 with top 5% and have an leadership (not EIC) Law Review position and struck out too basically applying the same way you did (broad COAs, narrow districts). Figure, it's a numbers game and for those of us who aren't feeder competitive, we just got to keep applying. Also felt like a failure around July/August especially since my clerkship office actually said I was underestimating myself and should apply narrower, so it felt like an extra punch in the gut.

Now a few months later, I've gained more perspective and realized my doom and gloom was premature and I have a whole career ahead of me (including right now). To keep applying. Talked to a lot of upper classmen who were in similar positions and they got great positions eventually.
Really, really appreciate you sharing your experience/perspective on this. Totally felt the same way - was very surprised by the strike out, total gut punch and I've been feeling down about it for a little while. Fingers crossed we can both figure this out!

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:22 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Dec 13, 2022 5:03 pm
If it makes you feel any better I'm at a T6 with top 5% and have an leadership (not EIC) Law Review position and struck out too basically applying the same way you did (broad COAs, narrow districts). Figure, it's a numbers game and for those of us who aren't feeder competitive, we just got to keep applying. Also felt like a failure around July/August especially since my clerkship office actually said I was underestimating myself and should apply narrower, so it felt like an extra punch in the gut.

Now a few months later, I've gained more perspective and realized my doom and gloom was premature and I have a whole career ahead of me (including right now). To keep applying. Talked to a lot of upper classmen who were in similar positions and they got great positions eventually.
Really, really appreciate you sharing your experience/perspective on this. Totally felt the same way - was very surprised by the strike out, total gut punch and I've been feeling down about it for a little while. Fingers crossed we can both figure this out!
(Anon you're replying to). Yeah it sucked especially dealing with a clerkship office that was like "you're going to be swimming in offers," which makes the lack of offers even worse. But then talking to 3Ls at the time who had also initially struck out despite the clerkship office making them seem like total shoo-ins gave me a lot of perspective. I imagine the reason clerkship offices tend to be over-optimistic is because they prob want to encourage clerkship apps and probably deal with a lot of people with imposter syndrome who need a push to apply. Of course, the downside to this is that when you hype someone else only to struck out it makes them feel worse.

Anyways, this is a long-winded way of saying that striking out in your position was by no means a "total failure" and is probably a lot more common than you think. And, even better, striking out and then getting a good clerkship later is actually very common.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 7:32 pm

Unless you have compelling geographic preferences, there's always more COA judges to apply to. With almost 180 active judges and dozens more senior status I'm not sure it's "incredibly" broad to apply to around 100. And clearly many more Districts.

This isn't to call you out at personally—you have amazing stats at a brilliant school and deserve every success—but I see posts like this and I'm always surprised by how many Judges must be getting left off applicants' lists.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Dec 13, 2022 9:18 pm

Apply more broadly to district courts since it seems like you’re geographically unconstrained. There are a lot of really good DJs further afield. But yeah you’ll get something. It seems like you don’t have anything that makes your app really unique, unless you aren’t mentioning something, which is a disadvantage (judges get tons of apps with very good but not exceptional grades from people in NY biglaw) but obviously not an insurmountable one.

Also make sure to follow Biden nominations and apply to new nominees.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:45 am

For what it's worth, I had almost your exact same profile at HLS about ten years ago but had a much more conservative application strategy that focused almost exclusively on district courts in the Ninth Circuit. (I basically applied to every district judge in California, as well as those in Phoenix, Las Vegas, Seattle, and Portland.) I ended up getting three interviews and ultimately got one offer from a senior judge in a non-NDCA or CDCA district.

All of this is to say that the clerkship application process is extremely competitive, even for strong applicants like you. I would aggressively apply to new appointees in any court where you'd be willing to clerk, keep monitoring openings on OSCAR, and hang in there. You will find something eventually, particularly if you're willing to clerk after working for a year or two.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by crazywafflez » Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:42 pm

I think there's been a lot of good advice put out for you in this thread, and just know, not having a clerkship isn't the end of the world and you can always do one later in your career!
That said, it is always competitive and I'd apply to more Dist Ct judges and then use those to help me get a COA.
I also think applying to home districts help. If you've got a connection to Arizona or something (Uncle lives there, or you grew up going to Sedona every year) make sure to get that across. A lot of judges really like it when they see someone from the area of they think this person will be invested in the area (some don't care though).
You could try for a Dist Ct Clerkship in Southern Ohio and use that as a spring for the 6th circ etc. So I would not be as constrained as you are, and just know that you can have a very successful career without ever working in a judge's chambers!

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:30 pm
I'm at HLS. I'm not quite magna but close, with a black letter heavy curriculum and H's in the "important" classes (fed courts, admin, crim pro). I'm not on HLR, but involved in 2 secondary journals, RA for 2 profs, and TF for another. Those profs wrote my LOR and one was calling on my behalf. Not diverse or fedsoc. Strong public university for UG but definitely not HYPSM.

Applied incredibly broadly with COA and narrowly with district (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, California districts), total of 120 apps. Completely struck out. Like didn't get a single interview. I've sent out some applications this year but still no interviews. Kinda blindsided me since our clerkship office indicated I was competitive at COA/competitive districts and could draw a pretty tailored list.

Any advice where I went astray? I've met with CSO but it didn't really help diagnose issues in my app. Mostly worried either LOR problems (I still work for the profs so surprised if they wrote bad LOR) or that I just wildly overestimated my competitiveness without HLR/magna.

Also, going forward - what should I do to make my app more competitive? I've accepted an offer to do lit/white collar at a v5 in NYC. Thinking I might work a few years and then re-apply, but not sure if that will make me any more competitive (especially at EDNY/SDNY/CA2)

Thanks!
Are you a transfer?

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:30 pm
I'm at HLS. I'm not quite magna but close, with a black letter heavy curriculum and H's in the "important" classes (fed courts, admin, crim pro). I'm not on HLR, but involved in 2 secondary journals, RA for 2 profs, and TF for another. Those profs wrote my LOR and one was calling on my behalf. Not diverse or fedsoc. Strong public university for UG but definitely not HYPSM.

Applied incredibly broadly with COA and narrowly with district (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, California districts), total of 120 apps. Completely struck out. Like didn't get a single interview. I've sent out some applications this year but still no interviews. Kinda blindsided me since our clerkship office indicated I was competitive at COA/competitive districts and could draw a pretty tailored list.

Any advice where I went astray? I've met with CSO but it didn't really help diagnose issues in my app. Mostly worried either LOR problems (I still work for the profs so surprised if they wrote bad LOR) or that I just wildly overestimated my competitiveness without HLR/magna.

Also, going forward - what should I do to make my app more competitive? I've accepted an offer to do lit/white collar at a v5 in NYC. Thinking I might work a few years and then re-apply, but not sure if that will make me any more competitive (especially at EDNY/SDNY/CA2)

Thanks!
Are you a transfer?
Not OP but I was a transfer to HLS and had struck out hard (albeit with marginally worse grades), so comfortable backing you that transferring affects the clerkship search

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:34 pm

A transfer applicant is so different than a non-transfer applicant.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:34 pm
A transfer applicant is so different than a non-transfer applicant.
Current 2L transfer at SLS and planning on applying on plan, please elaborate?

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:34 pm
A transfer applicant is so different than a non-transfer applicant.
Current 2L transfer at SLS and planning on applying on plan, please elaborate?
Transfers are often viewed as weaker clerkship applicants than comparable students at their 2L school because their 1L grades were not against comparable competition. Transfers may also get weaker recs.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:34 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:34 pm
A transfer applicant is so different than a non-transfer applicant.
Current 2L transfer at SLS and planning on applying on plan, please elaborate?
Transfers are often viewed as weaker clerkship applicants than comparable students at their 2L school because their 1L grades were not against comparable competition. Transfers may also get weaker recs.
Pre-SLS, I had a 3.9high at a T20, which would probably have been good enough to clerk out of my 1L school.
Will the transfer set my back as opposed to if I had stayed at my 1L school? That doesn't feel right.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:34 pm
A transfer applicant is so different than a non-transfer applicant.
Current 2L transfer at SLS and planning on applying on plan, please elaborate?
Transfers are often viewed as weaker clerkship applicants than comparable students at their 2L school because their 1L grades were not against comparable competition. Transfers may also get weaker recs.
Pre-SLS, I had a 3.9high at a T20, which would probably have been good enough to clerk out of my 1L school.
Will the transfer set my back as opposed to if I had stayed at my 1L school? That doesn't feel right.
It will set you back if maybe you just get straight Ps at Stanford and then are not competitive at Stanford. You're just a slightly weaker, candidate, but nothing that a bunch of Hs or applying after 3L won't substantially fix. Depending on your situation, feeder judges may be a lot harder/very unlikely given how many non-transfer Stanford students they have to pick from.

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 16, 2022 9:17 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:48 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:34 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 11:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:34 pm
A transfer applicant is so different than a non-transfer applicant.
Current 2L transfer at SLS and planning on applying on plan, please elaborate?
Transfers are often viewed as weaker clerkship applicants than comparable students at their 2L school because their 1L grades were not against comparable competition. Transfers may also get weaker recs.
Pre-SLS, I had a 3.9high at a T20, which would probably have been good enough to clerk out of my 1L school.
Will the transfer set my back as opposed to if I had stayed at my 1L school? That doesn't feel right.
It will set you back if maybe you just get straight Ps at Stanford and then are not competitive at Stanford. You're just a slightly weaker, candidate, but nothing that a bunch of Hs or applying after 3L won't substantially fix. Depending on your situation, feeder judges may be a lot harder/very unlikely given how many non-transfer Stanford students they have to pick from.
Yes, this. You’re competitive as long as your Stanford grades are good. But yeah clerking isn’t a great reason to transfer, for clerkship purposes it’s better to be top 5 at a T20 after 2L than doing that after 1L, transferring, and ending up median at your transfer school.

jotarokujo

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by jotarokujo » Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:19 am

i would be much more expansive in terms of where you applied to district courts. if you were broad location wise for CoA, i don't see why you wouldn't be for district court. the actual career benefit difference between districts isn't big

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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:30 pm
I'm at HLS. I'm not quite magna but close, with a black letter heavy curriculum and H's in the "important" classes (fed courts, admin, crim pro). I'm not on HLR, but involved in 2 secondary journals, RA for 2 profs, and TF for another. Those profs wrote my LOR and one was calling on my behalf. Not diverse or fedsoc. Strong public university for UG but definitely not HYPSM.

Applied incredibly broadly with COA and narrowly with district (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, California districts), total of 120 apps. Completely struck out. Like didn't get a single interview. I've sent out some applications this year but still no interviews. Kinda blindsided me since our clerkship office indicated I was competitive at COA/competitive districts and could draw a pretty tailored list.

Any advice where I went astray? I've met with CSO but it didn't really help diagnose issues in my app. Mostly worried either LOR problems (I still work for the profs so surprised if they wrote bad LOR) or that I just wildly overestimated my competitiveness without HLR/magna.

Also, going forward - what should I do to make my app more competitive? I've accepted an offer to do lit/white collar at a v5 in NYC. Thinking I might work a few years and then re-apply, but not sure if that will make me any more competitive (especially at EDNY/SDNY/CA2)

Thanks!
Are you a transfer?
OP - yeah, transferred.

Had around a 4.0 at my 1L school [T20], which was almost certainly good enough to clerk. After getting to HLS, I've received 2 Ps / 9 Hs / 1 DS, which I thought would be sufficient success to effectively wipe away 1L grades/school.

I guess I was wrong and overstated the import of my grades!

Anonymous User
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Re: Total Failure - Advice & Next Steps

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 8:13 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Dec 12, 2022 10:30 pm
I'm at HLS. I'm not quite magna but close, with a black letter heavy curriculum and H's in the "important" classes (fed courts, admin, crim pro). I'm not on HLR, but involved in 2 secondary journals, RA for 2 profs, and TF for another. Those profs wrote my LOR and one was calling on my behalf. Not diverse or fedsoc. Strong public university for UG but definitely not HYPSM.

Applied incredibly broadly with COA and narrowly with district (NYC, Chicago, DC, Boston, Philly, California districts), total of 120 apps. Completely struck out. Like didn't get a single interview. I've sent out some applications this year but still no interviews. Kinda blindsided me since our clerkship office indicated I was competitive at COA/competitive districts and could draw a pretty tailored list.

Any advice where I went astray? I've met with CSO but it didn't really help diagnose issues in my app. Mostly worried either LOR problems (I still work for the profs so surprised if they wrote bad LOR) or that I just wildly overestimated my competitiveness without HLR/magna.

Also, going forward - what should I do to make my app more competitive? I've accepted an offer to do lit/white collar at a v5 in NYC. Thinking I might work a few years and then re-apply, but not sure if that will make me any more competitive (especially at EDNY/SDNY/CA2)

Thanks!
Are you a transfer?
OP - yeah, transferred.

Had around a 4.0 at my 1L school [T20], which was almost certainly good enough to clerk. After getting to HLS, I've received 2 Ps / 9 Hs / 1 DS, which I thought would be sufficient success to effectively wipe away 1L grades/school.

I guess I was wrong and overstated the import of my grades!
Oh you're a transfer? Yeah that is certainly the problem. Just keep up the grades and apply again at the beginning of 2023 and you'll be fine.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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