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Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:05 pm
by Anonymous User
I came out of 1L in roughly the top 5% + LR at HYSC. I’m not affiliated with FedSoc or ACS (I don’t really feel like either is an ideological home for me) and am planning to send the bulk of my clerkship apps in on the plan next June, but I am also interested in applying early to a few off-plan judges for 2025-26 — conservative is fine so long as they hire non-conservative clerks.
Our clerkship office is fairly unhelpful this early in the process so I’m trying to gather intel on which judges (I’m geographically flexible) I should be targeting pre-plan with my credentials. Any advice would be appreciated!
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
by Anonymous User
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:56 pm
by Anonymous User
You're at Chicago, there's no reason to apply on plan if you're willing to clerk for a right-of-center judge. FedSoc isn't the only game in town. You should talk to your professors and then apply to every conservative feeder/semi-feeder known to hire moderates/liberals. If you get one and keep your grades up, you have an outside shot at SCOTUS.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:11 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
[A]pproach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
This is good advice.
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection.... My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan....
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This is
not good advice. After 1L, I secured a clerkship with a conservative semi-feeder who hires liberals. I didn't have FedSoc, I didn't benefit from a professor connection, and I didn't go to HYSC. I just mailed an application.
OP, get talking to potential recommenders
immediately and get applications in the mail as soon as you possibly can. Be selective—you're in a great position, especially if you keep building relationships with the right professors at your school. But get cracking, because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Those relationships can still pay off down the road, of course, and being on top of things right now may improve the odds by signalling to those professors that you're serious.
You can find info on feeders/semi-feeders elsewhere on this forum. Mail applications to all of them you'd be willing to work for. In the course of asking advice from potential recommenders, their connections may come up, but that's gravy. Capitalize on being in pole position right now, rather than hoping to be picked out of the pile in June.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:01 am
by lavarman84
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Lagoa falls somewhere around Samuel Alito on the ideological spectrum. Assuming OP doesn't consider himself or herself to be a conservative, I'd avoid.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7:
Sykes, Kirsch
8: Stras.
9:
Bybee, Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Agree with all the names on the list. Some friendly additions in bold.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:28 am
by Anonymous User
OP here — these replies are incredibly helpful, especially the recommended list of judges. I really appreciate the time you took to put that together. I have recommenders lined up and am preparing apps to go out by the end of the month hopefully.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:55 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
I am the poster who wrote this. I know when I'm wrong and I'll withdraw—appears I have gotten bad information.
I do stand by my quasi-fake ask which judges I should apply to thing with the hopes that a Professor offers to connect you with someone as that worked for me and my friends.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
Livingston was on plan as of 2-3 years ago at least. Park saved a spot or two for the plan in prior years, and is pretty 'best athlete' in hiring.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
Matey has hired liberals (and is a great guy by all accounts)-- would help with him in particular to have a professor call. Bibas seems pretty non-ideological in hiring.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7:
Sykes, Kirsch
8: Stras.
9:
Bybee, Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
This is second-hand but pretty sure Bumatay hires liberals.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Agree with all the names on the list. Some friendly additions in bold.
my comments in italics, also agree generally with list
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:30 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
Livingston was on plan as of 2-3 years ago at least. Park saved a spot or two for the plan in prior years, and is pretty 'best athlete' in hiring.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
Matey has hired liberals (and is a great guy by all accounts)-- would help with him in particular to have a professor call. Bibas seems pretty non-ideological in hiring.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7:
Sykes, Kirsch
8: Stras.
9:
Bybee, Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
This is second-hand but pretty sure Bumatay hires liberals.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Agree with all the names on the list. Some friendly additions in bold.
my comments in italics, also agree generally with list
Judge Bybee is a great judge to work for, but he follows the plan.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:17 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Bumatay hires clerks with a provable interest in originalism, which means he generally hires conservatives, but that's a function of what sort of person is most interested in originalism rather than a function of his political preferences. Moderate/progressive originalists with good grades are very much in the mix, and he's hired some before.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:17 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Bumatay hires clerks with a provable interest in originalism, which means he generally hires conservatives, but that's a function of what sort of person is most interested in originalism rather than a function of his political preferences. Moderate/progressive originalists with good grades are very much in the mix, and he's hired some before.
Can you elaborate on why Wilkinson is no longer a good experience?
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:15 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:17 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Bumatay hires clerks with a provable interest in originalism, which means he generally hires conservatives, but that's a function of what sort of person is most interested in originalism rather than a function of his political preferences. Moderate/progressive originalists with good grades are very much in the mix, and he's hired some before.
Can you elaborate on why Wilkinson is no longer a good experience?
My understanding is that he doesn’t go into the office anymore
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:23 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:15 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:17 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Bumatay hires clerks with a provable interest in originalism, which means he generally hires conservatives, but that's a function of what sort of person is most interested in originalism rather than a function of his political preferences. Moderate/progressive originalists with good grades are very much in the mix, and he's hired some before.
Can you elaborate on why Wilkinson is no longer a good experience?
My understanding is that he doesn’t go into the office anymore
Is that just because of COVID? Would love to know the answer b/c I am seriously thinking about applying.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:40 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:23 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:15 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:17 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Bumatay hires clerks with a provable interest in originalism, which means he generally hires conservatives, but that's a function of what sort of person is most interested in originalism rather than a function of his political preferences. Moderate/progressive originalists with good grades are very much in the mix, and he's hired some before.
Can you elaborate on why Wilkinson is no longer a good experience?
My understanding is that he doesn’t go into the office anymore
Is that just because of COVID? Would love to know the answer b/c I am seriously thinking about applying.
Different anon confirming. It’s because of Covid, but as of this term, he still isn’t going into the office and his clerks don’t interact with him much. He also used to have all of his clerks run with him but now only picks one, which sounds trivial, but when it’s your only real interface with your judge that’s a big deal. He may change back eventually but my general impression is that his tendency towards eccentricity has increased as he’s aged.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:49 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:23 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:15 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:28 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:17 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Bumatay hires clerks with a provable interest in originalism, which means he generally hires conservatives, but that's a function of what sort of person is most interested in originalism rather than a function of his political preferences. Moderate/progressive originalists with good grades are very much in the mix, and he's hired some before.
Can you elaborate on why Wilkinson is no longer a good experience?
My understanding is that he doesn’t go into the office anymore
Is that just because of COVID? Would love to know the answer b/c I am seriously thinking about applying.
Different anon confirming. It’s because of Covid, but as of this term, he still isn’t going into the office and his clerks don’t interact with him much. He also used to have all of his clerks run with him but now only picks one, which sounds trivial, but when it’s your only real interface with your judge that’s a big deal. He may change back eventually but my general impression is that his tendency towards eccentricity has increased as he’s aged.
What are the other eccentricities?
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:20 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:30 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
Livingston was on plan as of 2-3 years ago at least. Park saved a spot or two for the plan in prior years, and is pretty 'best athlete' in hiring.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
Matey has hired liberals (and is a great guy by all accounts)-- would help with him in particular to have a professor call. Bibas seems pretty non-ideological in hiring.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7:
Sykes, Kirsch
8: Stras.
9:
Bybee, Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
This is second-hand but pretty sure Bumatay hires liberals.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Agree with all the names on the list. Some friendly additions in bold.
my comments in italics, also agree generally with list
Judge Bybee is a great judge to work for, but he follows the plan.
Can confirm on both counts. He also does not hire ideologically.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:07 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:30 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:40 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:23 am
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
Livingston was on plan as of 2-3 years ago at least. Park saved a spot or two for the plan in prior years, and is pretty 'best athlete' in hiring.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
Matey has hired liberals (and is a great guy by all accounts)-- would help with him in particular to have a professor call. Bibas seems pretty non-ideological in hiring.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7:
Sykes, Kirsch
8: Stras.
9:
Bybee, Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
This is second-hand but pretty sure Bumatay hires liberals.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Agree with all the names on the list. Some friendly additions in bold.
my comments in italics, also agree generally with list
Judge Bybee is a great judge to work for, but he follows the plan.
Can confirm on both counts. He also does not hire ideologically.
Bibbas definitely hires left leaning people, have a friend who was involved in ACS who clerked for him
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:21 pm
by cirilec805
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Eid hires off plan and she definitely hires liberals. The only issue is she is very slow. If she were interested, she probably wouldn’t move until just about after every other judge on this list.
Re: Pre-Plan CoA Judges - Application Advice?
Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:11 pm
by Anonymous User
cirilec805 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:10 pm
You're not really gonna get anywhere at this stage without some sort of connection. Most of these connections are fed soc, but it is possible that it could be through a Professor. My advice is honestly to wait until June and just apply on plan, but if you really, really want to approach your Professors for LORs and then ask if they have any judges they would recommend you apply to. The "ask," of course, is two-tiered. You are trying to discern good matches, but a hope from the ask is going to be that the Professor offers to connect you with the judge.
Again, though, in your situation I would really just try to focus on grades and worry about this later and apply on plan. If you want to do pre-plan, you should be involved in Fed Soc and since you're not pre-plan is probably not going to be in the cards for you
This advice is so bad that it could not have been given by someone actually competent to give advice on the clerkship market. Plenty of judges hire students without Fed Soc or connections off-plan.
I’m not sure what you’re asking specifically OP. Line up rec letters and apply to judges, and do it quickly. You’ll get some bites. More likely for 2025-26 or 2026-27 than for 2024-25 though.
Here’s a quick list of judges I would consider. Most to all of these hire off-plan, aren’t nutty, are reasonably selective, and hire liberals.
2: Park, and if they take apps off-plan (idk), Bianco, Livingston, and Sullivan.
3: Bibas, Hardiman, Phipps. I’m not sure if Matey hires liberals but if he does he’s maybe worth a shot.
4: Richardson. I have heard that clerking for Wilkinson is no longer a good experience and would avoid on that ground, but otherwise would list him.
5: Willett.
6: Kethledge, Larsen, Murphy, Sutton, Thapar.
7: Kirsch.
8: Stras.
9: Bennett, Bumatay, Bress, Collins, Ikuta, Lee. I’m not positive that the first three hire liberals though.
10: Tymkovich, and Eid if she takes apps off-plan.
11: Newsom, Grant. I don’t know enough about Brasher, Carnes, Lagoa, or Luck to recommend or not.
Eid hires off plan and she definitely hires liberals. The only issue is she is very slow. If she were interested, she probably wouldn’t move until just about after every other judge on this list.
I believe that Eid used to exclusively hire from Chicago, Colorado, and Denver, though I don’t know if that’s still true since she was elevated. I know that age continues to hire heavily from Chicago.