Regretting Clerkship Forum

[Anonymous User]

I haven't experienced either but it seems like most of the "regrets" are from district. Maybe it can just vary more? Or maybe I just don't have a good sample size.

From what I've noticed, most of the regrets are from people who had a judge who was either a bad boss or an indifferent boss. But there are certainly people who clerk for great judges who find the experience boring and unenjoyable.

Yeah I've seen that too. And it makes sense when you think about it! Judges are full of themselves. Lawyers in general are bad managers but it's gotta be worse for judges. And it's only a year so they have no motivation to train you in.

I haven't experienced either but it seems like most of the "regrets" are from district. Maybe it can just vary more? Or maybe I just don't have a good sample size.

From what I've noticed, most of the regrets are from people who had a judge who was either a bad boss or an indifferent boss. But there are certainly people who clerk for great judges who find the experience boring and unenjoyable.

Yeah I've seen that too. And it makes sense when you think about it! Judges are full of themselves. Lawyers in general are bad managers but it's gotta be worse for judges. And it's only a year so they have no motivation to train you in.

There are lots of awesome judges, too, though. I don’t think judges are any worse managers than other lawyers, and they have a pretty clear motive to train their clerks because the clerks work directly for them and contribute significantly to their work.

Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of crappy judges who are bad managers and/or indifferent to their clerks. I agree that most people who have bad experience clerking probably have unpleasant or difficult judges. But I don’t think people talking about their bad experiences here suggests that most people hate their clerkships and that it’s because judges are predominantly bad bosses.

(That said, I realize probably more people have a bad time than talk about it because of the taboo/negative career consequences of speaking ill about judges, but I still don’t think that translates to *most* judges being bad bosses.)

Like it’s worth noting that the OP and
other unhappy clerk here didn’t say anything about not liking their judges. So I think it’s entirely possible to like your judge but hate the work. Or they are also struggling with their judges but didn’t go into that, maybe because of the risk.

[Anonymous User]

Whether your clerkship is going to be enjoyable usually has less to do with the difference in the type of work (circuit vs. district, how interesting the docket in your jurisdiction is) and much more to do with your judge. A 9th Circuit clerkship in San Diego with a miserable, formal, mercurial boss is going to be a slog. A clerkship in the Western District of Flyoveria with a docket that is an endless fountain of pro se prisoner litigation and illegal re-entry sentencings, but with a judge who makes you excited to come to work every day, is actually a pretty solid gig even if the actual work experience isn't great.

That being said it feels like there are more clunker judges at the district level, in part because there are so many more district judges, and in part because they have complete autonomy and can run their courtroom like a fiefdom. Circuit judges actually have no autonomy at all once they step outside of chambers, obviously they can run their office as poorly as they want, but the judging itself is always a collaborative process, and I think this helps culturally prevent judges from getting their egos too inflated.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

What you're describing is honestly ideal. Being a lawyer generally isn't fun or intellectually fulfilling on a day-to-day basis.

[nixy]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

This is totally fair. This sounds like a bad match - you probably shouldn’t have clerked - rather than a bad clerkship (and to be fair, I think you made this pretty clear from the start). I don’t mean that as a criticism, I agree with the person who said that law schools push clerkships on all good students, sort of regardless of their actual interests.

Can you start any networking for a future job now? Like get involved with the local bar association or an inn of court? Just wondering if doing some stuff to move you toward your future preferred job would help.

[jotarokujo]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

interesting that you like talking through cases but don't like the time you sit in the office thinking about cases?

[jotarokujo]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

What you're describing is honestly ideal. Being a lawyer generally isn't fun or intellectually fulfilling on a day-to-day basis.

also curious OP, did you enjoy law school? i thought clerking was very similar to law school, and since i loved law school I also loved clerking. so I'm imagining you probably didn't enjoy law school much, which is of course normal

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

interesting that you like talking through cases but don't like the time you sit in the office thinking about cases?

But honestly, clerking is a very lonely, boring experience and can be depressing if you are single, in a new city, without many friends. Sure, there might be some bright spots, but that doesn't stop the cloud. I get you OP. Mental health is key. I'd take a few weeks, then reconsider. If you still feel the same way, have the hard discussion with your judge and make it a year. This is coming from someone who went through the same situation. I cried in front of my judge. A tall white male. Imagine that. Just want you to be happy man.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

interesting that you like talking through cases but don't like the time you sit in the office thinking about cases?

But honestly, clerking is a very lonely, boring experience and can be depressing if you are single, in a new city, without many friends. Sure, there might be some bright spots, but that doesn't stop the cloud. I get you OP. Mental health is key. I'd take a few weeks, then reconsider. If you still feel the same way, have the hard discussion with your judge and make it a year. This is coming from someone who went through the same situation. I cried in front of my judge. A tall white male. Imagine that. Just want you to be happy man.

What's the alternative though? Biglaw? That's miserable too

[lavarman84]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

interesting that you like talking through cases but don't like the time you sit in the office thinking about cases?

But honestly, clerking is a very lonely, boring experience and can be depressing if you are single, in a new city, without many friends. Sure, there might be some bright spots, but that doesn't stop the cloud. I get you OP. Mental health is key. I'd take a few weeks, then reconsider. If you still feel the same way, have the hard discussion with your judge and make it a year. This is coming from someone who went through the same situation. I cried in front of my judge. A tall white male. Imagine that. Just want you to be happy man.

What's the alternative though? Biglaw? That's miserable too

Public interest is pretty great if you can afford it and have the passion.

[Anonymous User]

Chiming in to say that I also don’t like my clerkship. I don’t feel like I’m learning anything, and my judge is very frustrating and a bad manager. At this point it feels like I upended my whole life and moved away from my wife and friends for literally nothing more than a resume line.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

interesting that you like talking through cases but don't like the time you sit in the office thinking about cases?

But honestly, clerking is a very lonely, boring experience and can be depressing if you are single, in a new city, without many friends. Sure, there might be some bright spots, but that doesn't stop the cloud. I get you OP. Mental health is key. I'd take a few weeks, then reconsider. If you still feel the same way, have the hard discussion with your judge and make it a year. This is coming from someone who went through the same situation. I cried in front of my judge. A tall white male. Imagine that. Just want you to be happy man.

Same guy here. I know how you all feel. I literally had a calendar on my wall for the whole year and marked off each day. For me, it was depressing because usually you end up in a new city with no friends and it can often be very stressful. Usually, even if your co-clerks are nice, its hard to form a social circle around them, as they are usually at different points in their lives or could have families themselves. The job isn't very social. While I don't like Biglaw, I do like the fact I can see people and talk to them and it just feels much more interactive.At the end of the day OP, no one will know your clerkship was supposed to be two years if its only one on your resume. Take a few weeks, then talk to your judge if youre still not happy.

[TheGreatestGunner]

I would hang in there and try to get involved in other projects-- like publishing an academic paper of your own or pursuing something you love.

The job market is may get really dangerous. People who go straight to biglaw may find themselves with one year of salary and then become nearly unemployable for several years if a recession gets bad enough. This happened during the Great Recession.

This time you are putting in now is not just dollar value present, but insurance for your future. So, yeah, its a bummer, but unless you're older (40+) I don't think the trade-off is wrong. Try to find interesting or fun things to occupy time.

[jdoeman1234567]

I would hang in there and try to get involved in other projects-- like publishing an academic paper of your own or pursuing something you love.

The job market is may get really dangerous. People who go straight to biglaw may find themselves with one year of salary and then become nearly unemployable for several years if a recession gets bad enough. This happened during the Great Recession.

This time you are putting in now is not just dollar value present, but insurance for your future. So, yeah, its a bummer, but unless you're older (40+) I don't think the trade-off is wrong. Try to find interesting or fun things to occupy time.

How is this insurance? Are your saying firms are much less likely to let clerks go? That might be true but I could also see a situation where some clerks have a tougher time getting back into big law a year from now if the economy continues to spiral.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Just to clarify, I actually really like my judge. The best part of my day is talking through cases with him and talking with him in general. And I like my co-clerks. They’re great! Just a lot of time sitting in my office bored to death.

interesting that you like talking through cases but don't like the time you sit in the office thinking about cases?

But honestly, clerking is a very lonely, boring experience and can be depressing if you are single, in a new city, without many friends. Sure, there might be some bright spots, but that doesn't stop the cloud. I get you OP. Mental health is key. I'd take a few weeks, then reconsider. If you still feel the same way, have the hard discussion with your judge and make it a year. This is coming from someone who went through the same situation. I cried in front of my judge. A tall white male. Imagine that. Just want you to be happy man.

Same guy here. I know how you all feel. I literally had a calendar on my wall for the whole year and marked off each day. For me, it was depressing because usually you end up in a new city with no friends and it can often be very stressful. Usually, even if your co-clerks are nice, its hard to form a social circle around them, as they are usually at different points in their lives or could have families themselves. The job isn't very social. While I don't like Biglaw, I do like the fact I can see people and talk to them and it just feels much more interactive.At the end of the day OP, no one will know your clerkship was supposed to be two years if its only one on your resume. Take a few weeks, then talk to your judge if youre still not happy.

If you’re in a smaller city, which is what this sounds like, go to bar association young lawyers events. The bars in smaller jurisdictions are usually very tight-knit and it’s perfectly normal to go without knowing many people (like everyone who went elsewhere for law school). People love to talk to clerks.

Other ideas: meet alums of your school, play rec sports, go to church, volunteer

Lots of law clerks live very isolated lives outside work for no good reason. Sure you’re only there for a year but you might as well meet people if you don’t have preexisting connections.

[Anonymous User]

How is this insurance? Are your saying firms are much less likely to let clerks go? That might be true but I could also see a situation where some clerks have a tougher time getting back into big law a year from now if the economy continues to spiral.

Generally it is insurance in that judges are an advocate for you in future job opportunities and few firms, agencies, etc. want to say no to a judge unless they have to do so. If the OP will be there for two years, and not one years, that would also help miss the slash-layoff phase of a recession, like the one that looks to be impending. I admit that is speculative.

Beyond that, of all attorneys, only a very small percentage clerk for a district or appellate court. Firms usually want input on how the judges they are appearing before may think of an argument. It is not uncommon for firms to round up "all clerks of X judge" for moots or advisory sessions. So, it's just a more unique value proposition, one that can help when looking for a job in a bad economy, or not getting laid off. It also might keep the gateway back into BigLaw open longer.

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

I bet this is Pooler.

[jotarokujo]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

what is there to do other than stuff related to you cases?

OT: i do feel like 90% of regrets related to clerking are about the judge being a bad boss/overly demanding

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

Join the club. It can be irritating. At least the judge I clerk for goes to bat for their clerks (and is otherwise wonderful).

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

I bet this is Pooler.

I’ve heard there are stories to be heard. True?

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

I bet this is Pooler.

I’ve heard there are stories to be heard. True?

Idk if Pooler is a bad boss but her work product is not up to Second Circuit standard and she picks some really odd hills to die on. I don’t get the impression that she’s not hard-working though, she always seemed pretty up to speed and prompt on her cases.

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

I bet this is Pooler.

I’ve heard there are stories to be heard. True?

Idk if Pooler is a bad boss but her work product is not up to Second Circuit standard and she picks some really odd hills to die on. I don’t get the impression that she’s not hard-working though, she always seemed pretty up to speed and prompt on her cases.

Yeah the Pooler stories I've heard can generally be described more as "harmless crazy person" than "bad boss."

[Anonymous User]

Hello I was just asked to do something truly dumb, not related to any of our cases, that would take five days if done correctly, but she wants by tomorrow.

Also I don’t think my judge is reading the papers for our cases or my memos…

I bet this is Pooler.

I’ve heard there are stories to be heard. True?

Idk if Pooler is a bad boss but her work product is not up to Second Circuit standard and she picks some really odd hills to die on. I don’t get the impression that she’s not hard-working though, she always seemed pretty up to speed and prompt on her cases.

Yeah the Pooler stories I've heard can generally be described more as "harmless crazy person" than "bad boss."

Is she crazy though? I just thought she was just like a fine person, but just like not a good judge or particularly sought after clerkship (by Second Circuit standards, of course, I'm sure she still gets 100s of apps by virtue of being federal appellate judge).

[Anonymous User]

So two months in I just got sat down and given a litany of things I’m doing wrong, which basically amount to “be happier to be here.” None of these were things that had been raised in any way before. Including a complaint that I wasn’t doing enough work, which really blindsided me because to the extent I’ve gotten feedback it’s been positive. I’m considering leaving early, but just don’t know what to do and feel trapped.