Borderline Summa at CCN with lots of factors working against me. Struck out on clerkships; where can I go next? Forum

[FirstArbiter]

I’m in the total opposite position (already clerked, worse school, and did need the biglaw money), so this is pure grass-is-greener-ism and probably not at all up your alley. But: why not hang a shingle in a place you like and try to go out on your own? You’re smart, seem from this post atypically self-aware, and are probably good at hustling. Could be fun and the people who make it the hugest often do something totally original.

Now there's an idea! My uncle lived the life of a small-town lawyer who hung a shingle right after graduation; it worked well for him, but I don't think it's for me, at least when I'm starting out. Having said that, I've always told myself that if "law as a career" doesn't work out for me, I'll start up a solo legal aid clinic and put in 40 hours a week there as a "job."

You're right about the grass always being greener. If I was planning to work in BigLaw for a while at some point, I would probably just shrug my shoulders at this. Instead, I feel like striking out on clerkships will end up throwing off my life plan by at least a few years.

[Anonymous User]

I’m in the total opposite position (already clerked, worse school, and did need the biglaw money), so this is pure grass-is-greener-ism and probably not at all up your alley. But: why not hang a shingle in a place you like and try to go out on your own? You’re smart, seem from this post atypically self-aware, and are probably good at hustling. Could be fun and the people who make it the hugest often do something totally original.

Now there's an idea! My uncle lived the life of a small-town lawyer who hung a shingle right after graduation; it worked well for him, but I don't think it's for me, at least when I'm starting out. Having said that, I've always told myself that if "law as a career" doesn't work out for me, I'll start up a solo legal aid clinic and put in 40 hours a week there as a "job."

You're right about the grass always being greener. If I was planning to work in BigLaw for a while at some point, I would probably just shrug my shoulders at this. Instead, I feel like striking out on clerkships will end up throwing off my life plan by at least a few years.

Have you considered applying to whatever the best criminal defense and civil rights firms in your hometown, or wherever you want to live, are? Those sorts of firms often don't do the OCI/SA thing because they're small even if they're good and hire good people. The downside is that they're sometimes hard to find, though, unless you know an insider practitioner who can connect you (maybe clinical profs at your law school, or at law schools in the areas you're interested in?).

[FirstArbiter]

Have you considered applying to whatever the best criminal defense and civil rights firms in your hometown, or wherever you want to live, are? Those sorts of firms often don't do the OCI/SA thing because they're small even if they're good and hire good people. The downside is that they're sometimes hard to find, though, unless you know an insider practitioner who can connect you (maybe clinical profs at your law school, or at law schools in the areas you're interested in?).

That might be a good idea. The judge I interned for is based in my hometown, is extremely well-connected, and has offered to keep pounding the pavement for me now that the clerkship search has fizzled--I could probably ask her if she knows anyone, which she almost assuredly does. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Anonymous User]

Per someone else in the thread. OP throw out some state supreme court applications (especially to your home state) and also to the Alaska Supreme Court OCI in Fall of your 3L spring.

Alaska Supreme Court is extremely competitive, because there's a large number of people who would jump for the opportunity to live in Alaska for a year (same reason Hawaii clerkships are hard to get).

If I were you, I'd go for a less popular state supreme court.

Just to add - the other reason Alaska/Hawaii fed & state clerkships are competitive is international students can't officially clerk in the CONUS and very few judges hire volunteer clerks. So the coif/magna T14 Canadians and other internationals gunning for 9th Cir or even ASS is very high.

Another less important reason - both are hotbeds for environ & immigration lawsuits and attract folks interested in those areas.

[Anonymous User]

Ok so someone can feel free to whoosh me in case I am missing something because I feel like I am going insane. What we have here is someone at a T6 on track to graduate with whatever magna equivalent honors their school gives if they give it to transfers which I'm pretty sure they do. Said person did not get a clerkship and is working at a firm they both don't like and fear will make them do corporate. And the advice has now turned into telling them to essentially abandon everything and work in a small firm or even by themselves. Not that there is anything wrong with individual lawyers or small firms, but that seems ridiculous when OP can apply to Kirkland/Quinn/SSC/other biglaw firm that will take them for lit and just reapply for clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

Ok so someone can feel free to whoosh me in case I am missing something because I feel like I am going insane. What we have here is someone at a T6 on track to graduate with whatever magna equivalent honors their school gives if they give it to transfers which I'm pretty sure they do. Said person did not get a clerkship and is working at a firm they both don't like and fear will make them do corporate. And the advice has now turned into telling them to essentially abandon everything and work in a small firm or even by themselves. Not that there is anything wrong with individual lawyers or small firms, but that seems ridiculous when OP can apply to Kirkland/Quinn/SSC/other biglaw firm that will take them for lit and just reapply for clerkships.

you are correct, the bolded advice is idiotic, and the poster who gave it is some weird new-account boomer

[kolio6]

Ok so someone can feel free to whoosh me in case I am missing something because I feel like I am going insane. What we have here is someone at a T6 on track to graduate with whatever magna equivalent honors their school gives if they give it to transfers which I'm pretty sure they do. Said person did not get a clerkship and is working at a firm they both don't like and fear will make them do corporate. And the advice has now turned into telling them to essentially abandon everything and work in a small firm or even by themselves. Not that there is anything wrong with individual lawyers or small firms, but that seems ridiculous when OP can apply to Kirkland/Quinn/SSC/other biglaw firm that will take them for lit and just reapply for clerkships.

you are correct, the bolded advice is idiotic, and the poster who gave it is some weird new-account boomer

I’ll third this. This isn’t the 1930s anymore — you can’t expect to pull a Robert Jackson in some small town in upstate New York and end up in the highest echelons of the legal profession.

[Anonymous User]

Per someone else in the thread. OP throw out some state supreme court applications (especially to your home state) and also to the Alaska Supreme Court OCI in Fall of your 3L spring.

Alaska Supreme Court is extremely competitive, because there's a large number of people who would jump for the opportunity to live in Alaska for a year (same reason Hawaii clerkships are hard to get).

If I were you, I'd go for a less popular state supreme court.

Just to add - the other reason Alaska/Hawaii fed & state clerkships are competitive is international students can't officially clerk in the CONUS and very few judges hire volunteer clerks. So the coif/magna T14 Canadians and other internationals gunning for 9th Cir or even ASS is very high.

Another less important reason - both are hotbeds for environ & immigration lawsuits and attract folks interested in those areas.

Some SSC allow internationals to clerk for pay. But yeah, fed clerkships in Alaska and Hawaii are more competitive than most people think.

[FirstArbiter]

Ok so someone can feel free to whoosh me in case I am missing something because I feel like I am going insane. What we have here is someone at a T6 on track to graduate with whatever magna equivalent honors their school gives if they give it to transfers which I'm pretty sure they do. Said person did not get a clerkship and is working at a firm they both don't like and fear will make them do corporate. And the advice has now turned into telling them to essentially abandon everything and work in a small firm or even by themselves. Not that there is anything wrong with individual lawyers or small firms, but that seems ridiculous when OP can apply to Kirkland/Quinn/SSC/other biglaw firm that will take them for lit and just reapply for clerkships.

you are correct, the bolded advice is idiotic, and the poster who gave it is some weird new-account boomer

I’ll third this. This isn’t the 1930s anymore — you can’t expect to pull a Robert Jackson in some small town in upstate New York and end up in the highest echelons of the legal profession.

I’ll agree that some of the advice here has gone a bit far afield from what I asked for, which I think has been ably addressed at this point. But on the other hand, I don’t have strong hopes or ambitions of ending up in the “highest echelons” of the profession or anything close to it; I’m just trying to do something interesting that won’t consume my entire life the way 40 years in big law would. So from that standpoint, I do appreciate some off the wall suggestions, even if they’re not exactly what I’m looking for.

[jotarokujo]

Per someone else in the thread. OP throw out some state supreme court applications (especially to your home state) and also to the Alaska Supreme Court OCI in Fall of your 3L spring.

Alaska Supreme Court is extremely competitive, because there's a large number of people who would jump for the opportunity to live in Alaska for a year (same reason Hawaii clerkships are hard to get).

If I were you, I'd go for a less popular state supreme court.

Summa at CCN is more than competitive for AK Supreme - I've known folks who have worse grades at my lower T14 who get it, so I'd apply if you have any interest. Maybe it varies by school, but there weren't that many people at my school who were enthused about moving to Alaska for a year for a state clerkship (I disagree with the snobbery because Anchorage sounds like a blast, but it is definitely a thing). Just apply to SSCs where you have ties or would like to practice.

the folks going to SCOAK from Y/S are not just the top 10%. sure, they're probably all above median but summa at CCN is competitive no doubt (idk about "more than competitive" in that i wouldn't say it's a lock)

[Anonymous User]

So, in my chambers, we interviewed someone similar to you. I thought they were a great candidate (and on paper, perhaps the most impressive candidate), but he did not get it. Goes to show that judges hire for all sorts reasons, often times pursuant to their own random quirks/preferences. Like you, I had quite good grades at my HYS and did not get a clerkship for the year following graduation, despite interviewing with a semi-feeder and "big-name" district courts.

If you want to clerk, doing biglaw for a year or two can definitely help give you options, if for no other reason than that there will be more openings (especially considering the amount of judges that strongly prefer work experience). Also, I'd advise you to make connections with professors this year; that is probably the most important thing, if you felt your recs week. If you are the type of person near the top of a T6, getting As with rockstar profs like Will Baude or the like, apply again after fostering more prof relationships. Especially because some of those profs can open lots of doors for you by calling their pals in the judiciary.

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

[FirstArbiter]

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

That's what I'm hoping for at this point; I've applied to most of the Honors programs and will probably add the rest as they post positions. I think I'll be fine if that ultimately pans out, but it's a pretty big crapshoot.

I ended up applying to some of the biglaw firms people in this thread mentioned, but that seems to have been a dead end. I had a 3L OCI screener with Quinn that the interviewer didn't show up to (and he never responded to my follow-up email). Not really a big deal since landing another biglaw job was never my goal, but I think some posters in this thread overestimate the interest of any of these firms in hiring 3Ls, if anyone is reading this in the future.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve heard you will have more luck as a lateral. If you don’t like your firm I’d start applying after 6-9 months. Shouldn’t be too bad to stick it out that long. Also don’t discount state or local stuff

[Anonymous User]

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

That's what I'm hoping for at this point; I've applied to most of the Honors programs and will probably add the rest as they post positions. I think I'll be fine if that ultimately pans out, but it's a pretty big crapshoot.

I ended up applying to some of the biglaw firms people in this thread mentioned, but that seems to have been a dead end. I had a 3L OCI screener with Quinn that the interviewer didn't show up to (and he never responded to my follow-up email). Not really a big deal since landing another biglaw job was never my goal, but I think some posters in this thread overestimate the interest of any of these firms in hiring 3Ls, if anyone is reading this in the future.

This is highly inappropriate that the Quinn person did not show up during your screener, and I suggest you reach out to your career services office to let them know and just double check there wasn't a miscommunication somewhere. If you're still interested in Quinn (which you may not be after that), I think it is still possible to get a position if it turns out this interviewer was just being unprofessional/had an emergency of the scale that justifies not responding to follow up emails.

[FirstArbiter]

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

That's what I'm hoping for at this point; I've applied to most of the Honors programs and will probably add the rest as they post positions. I think I'll be fine if that ultimately pans out, but it's a pretty big crapshoot.

I ended up applying to some of the biglaw firms people in this thread mentioned, but that seems to have been a dead end. I had a 3L OCI screener with Quinn that the interviewer didn't show up to (and he never responded to my follow-up email). Not really a big deal since landing another biglaw job was never my goal, but I think some posters in this thread overestimate the interest of any of these firms in hiring 3Ls, if anyone is reading this in the future.

This is highly inappropriate that the Quinn person did not show up during your screener, and I suggest you reach out to your career services office to let them know and just double check there wasn't a miscommunication somewhere. If you're still interested in Quinn (which you may not be after that), I think it is still possible to get a position if it turns out this interviewer was just being unprofessional/had an emergency of the scale that justifies not responding to follow up emails.

Thank you, but it's definitely something I laughed off. In the event there was some emergency, etc., I wouldn't want the associate who dropped the ball to get chastised by ratting him out to career services, and if there wasn't...well that says something about the firm and/or their interest in me, which kind of renders the whole thing moot from my point of view. I wish I could have talked to Quinn, but I am much more interested in government work (which I have some good leads on).

[Anonymous User]

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

That's what I'm hoping for at this point; I've applied to most of the Honors programs and will probably add the rest as they post positions. I think I'll be fine if that ultimately pans out, but it's a pretty big crapshoot.

I ended up applying to some of the biglaw firms people in this thread mentioned, but that seems to have been a dead end. I had a 3L OCI screener with Quinn that the interviewer didn't show up to (and he never responded to my follow-up email). Not really a big deal since landing another biglaw job was never my goal, but I think some posters in this thread overestimate the interest of any of these firms in hiring 3Ls, if anyone is reading this in the future.

This is highly inappropriate that the Quinn person did not show up during your screener, and I suggest you reach out to your career services office to let them know and just double check there wasn't a miscommunication somewhere. If you're still interested in Quinn (which you may not be after that), I think it is still possible to get a position if it turns out this interviewer was just being unprofessional/had an emergency of the scale that justifies not responding to follow up emails.

Thank you, but it's definitely something I laughed off. In the event there was some emergency, etc., I wouldn't want the associate who dropped the ball to get chastised by ratting him out to career services, and if there wasn't...well that says something about the firm and/or their interest in me, which kind of renders the whole thing moot from my point of view. I wish I could have talked to Quinn, but I am much more interested in government work (which I have some good leads on).

My concern about DOJ Honors is that I have a good friend who like you was top 10% at CCN and hadn’t landed a clerkship and also had good connections with folks in a DOJ office — but DOJ honors rejected him because he didn’t have a clerkship lined up/didn’t have clerkship experience (he was a bit unclear on this). So I do think working at a firm and then lateraling is something you should definitely keep on the table.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

That's what I'm hoping for at this point; I've applied to most of the Honors programs and will probably add the rest as they post positions. I think I'll be fine if that ultimately pans out, but it's a pretty big crapshoot.

I ended up applying to some of the biglaw firms people in this thread mentioned, but that seems to have been a dead end. I had a 3L OCI screener with Quinn that the interviewer didn't show up to (and he never responded to my follow-up email). Not really a big deal since landing another biglaw job was never my goal, but I think some posters in this thread overestimate the interest of any of these firms in hiring 3Ls, if anyone is reading this in the future.

This is highly inappropriate that the Quinn person did not show up during your screener, and I suggest you reach out to your career services office to let them know and just double check there wasn't a miscommunication somewhere. If you're still interested in Quinn (which you may not be after that), I think it is still possible to get a position if it turns out this interviewer was just being unprofessional/had an emergency of the scale that justifies not responding to follow up emails.

Thank you, but it's definitely something I laughed off. In the event there was some emergency, etc., I wouldn't want the associate who dropped the ball to get chastised by ratting him out to career services, and if there wasn't...well that says something about the firm and/or their interest in me, which kind of renders the whole thing moot from my point of view. I wish I could have talked to Quinn, but I am much more interested in government work (which I have some good leads on).

My concern about DOJ Honors is that I have a good friend who like you was top 10% at CCN and hadn’t landed a clerkship and also had good connections with folks in a DOJ office — but DOJ honors rejected him because he didn’t have a clerkship lined up/didn’t have clerkship experience (he was a bit unclear on this). So I do think working at a firm and then lateraling is something you should definitely keep on the table.

DOJ doesn’t hold offers open for clerkships so it can’t be because he didn’t have one lined up. As for not having clerkship, I could see this being the case for very competitive litigating divisions (some Civil, Criminal and Civil Rights), but that’s why you shouldn’t apply to just those three.

[FirstArbiter]

My concern about DOJ Honors is that I have a good friend who like you was top 10% at CCN and hadn’t landed a clerkship and also had good connections with folks in a DOJ office — but DOJ honors rejected him because he didn’t have a clerkship lined up/didn’t have clerkship experience (he was a bit unclear on this). So I do think working at a firm and then lateraling is something you should definitely keep on the table.

This is consistent with what I've heard about DOJ Honors. I talked with a former clerk of the judge I interned for who basically went from hearing nothing back from DOJ as a 3L to getting the job pretty easily when she was clerking a year later. Honestly, I'm more interested in some of the regulatory agencies than I am in DOJ, but I did send out an application; I definitely recognize that it's a long shot.

DOJ doesn’t hold offers open for clerkships so it can’t be because he didn’t have one lined up. As for not having clerkship, I could see this being the case for very competitive litigating divisions (some Civil, Criminal and Civil Rights), but that’s why you shouldn’t apply to just those three.

DOJ does limit applicants to only three components, so there's definitely some strategy involved in choosing which ones to list. Based on what I've heard, many components only hire applicants who list them first, so I chose to focus my application on a single division that (a) hires a lot of people and (b) looks for the kind of educational background I have.

[Anonymous User]

This whole thread is nuts. Bro just blanket the V100, do biglaw for a year, then clerk, and then do your thing. It is just one year.

[FirstArbiter]

This whole thread is nuts. Bro just blanket the V100, do biglaw for a year, then clerk, and then do your thing. It is just one year.

Except most of the government agencies I'm interested in hire either directly out of school/clerkships or after 4-6 years with specialized experience. I don't think I would realistically be out of biglaw after one year.

[Anonymous User]

This whole thread is nuts. Bro just blanket the V100, do biglaw for a year, then clerk, and then do your thing. It is just one year.

Except most of the government agencies I'm interested in hire either directly out of school/clerkships or after 4-6 years with specialized experience. I don't think I would realistically be out of biglaw after one year.

OP you’re absolutely correct. I am two years out (clerked for a federal district court) and entering DOJ Honors in the fall. I blanket applied to 100s of postings on USAjobs and didn’t hear back from a single one that wasn’t explicitly an entry level honors program. If you don’t get honors, go to a firm and try to clerk, but I wouldn’t expect being able to get back into a competitive agency before four or five years out.

[Anonymous User]

If you don't care about money, a government honors program is a great option, but you may find you won't want to clerk and just stay in public service (and this isn't a bad thing, per se).

That's what I'm hoping for at this point; I've applied to most of the Honors programs and will probably add the rest as they post positions. I think I'll be fine if that ultimately pans out, but it's a pretty big crapshoot.

I ended up applying to some of the biglaw firms people in this thread mentioned, but that seems to have been a dead end. I had a 3L OCI screener with Quinn that the interviewer didn't show up to (and he never responded to my follow-up email). Not really a big deal since landing another biglaw job was never my goal, but I think some posters in this thread overestimate the interest of any of these firms in hiring 3Ls, if anyone is reading this in the future.

This is highly inappropriate that the Quinn person did not show up during your screener, and I suggest you reach out to your career services office to let them know and just double check there wasn't a miscommunication somewhere. If you're still interested in Quinn (which you may not be after that), I think it is still possible to get a position if it turns out this interviewer was just being unprofessional/had an emergency of the scale that justifies not responding to follow up emails.

Thank you, but it's definitely something I laughed off. In the event there was some emergency, etc., I wouldn't want the associate who dropped the ball to get chastised by ratting him out to career services, and if there wasn't...well that says something about the firm and/or their interest in me, which kind of renders the whole thing moot from my point of view. I wish I could have talked to Quinn, but I am much more interested in government work (which I have some good leads on).

My concern about DOJ Honors is that I have a good friend who like you was top 10% at CCN and hadn’t landed a clerkship and also had good connections with folks in a DOJ office — but DOJ honors rejected him because he didn’t have a clerkship lined up/didn’t have clerkship experience (he was a bit unclear on this). So I do think working at a firm and then lateraling is something you should definitely keep on the table.

DOJ doesn’t hold offers open for clerkships so it can’t be because he didn’t have one lined up. As for not having clerkship, I could see this being the case for very competitive litigating divisions (some Civil, Criminal and Civil Rights), but that’s why you shouldn’t apply to just those three.

DOJ *really* likes clerks. I think lined up means “I will start clerking right after I submit this application” (bc the honors app is due around Labor Day). The only positions where I know of non-clerks getting hired are the immigration judge clerkships, which don’t sound like what the OP wants to do.

[FirstArbiter]

This whole thread is nuts. Bro just blanket the V100, do biglaw for a year, then clerk, and then do your thing. It is just one year.

Except most of the government agencies I'm interested in hire either directly out of school/clerkships or after 4-6 years with specialized experience. I don't think I would realistically be out of biglaw after one year.

OP you’re absolutely correct. I am two years out (clerked for a federal district court) and entering DOJ Honors in the fall. I blanket applied to 100s of postings on USAjobs and didn’t hear back from a single one that wasn’t explicitly an entry level honors program. If you don’t get honors, go to a firm and try to clerk, but I wouldn’t expect being able to get back into a competitive agency before four or five years out.

Congratulations and good luck as you start at DOJ! I definitely get the sense that most federal hiring is very rigid, which is understandable, so I've focused on applying to Honors programs and other positions explicitly for entry-level attorneys. If that doesn't work out, I probably will end up applying broadly to firms, but I've managed to drum up a solid number of interviews from agencies already, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

[lavarman84]

This whole thread is nuts. Bro just blanket the V100, do biglaw for a year, then clerk, and then do your thing. It is just one year.

Except most of the government agencies I'm interested in hire either directly out of school/clerkships or after 4-6 years with specialized experience. I don't think I would realistically be out of biglaw after one year.

OP you’re absolutely correct. I am two years out (clerked for a federal district court) and entering DOJ Honors in the fall. I blanket applied to 100s of postings on USAjobs and didn’t hear back from a single one that wasn’t explicitly an entry level honors program. If you don’t get honors, go to a firm and try to clerk, but I wouldn’t expect being able to get back into a competitive agency before four or five years out.

Congratulations and good luck as you start at DOJ! I definitely get the sense that most federal hiring is very rigid, which is understandable, so I've focused on applying to Honors programs and other positions explicitly for entry-level attorneys. If that doesn't work out, I probably will end up applying broadly to firms, but I've managed to drum up a solid number of interviews from agencies already, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

It is very rigid. You're correct. If you do want to preserve your DOJ Honors eligibility and continue seeking clerkships, you could use a fellowship to fill that gap. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

[Anonymous User]

Re: rigidity - if you don’t have the prerequisite years of experience for a federal job your application won’t even get reviewed. Unfortunately there aren’t a lot of entry level positions. But yes, a fellowship will preserve your eligibility for honors.