Grades at Penn Forum

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randymarsh746

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by randymarsh746 » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:21 pm
So, the more pressing question: What is the 2L GPA around which you have a reasonable shot at clerking? As we all know, Fritton is useless.
Anecdotally, I applied mid-2L and secured several COA interviews with a 3.75. I emailed updated transcripts when grades were released after interviews, and I had a 3.8. I had no problem getting an offer, but I also have pretty unique work experience prior to law school. The clerkship office was pushing me to apply to state court and district court clerkships.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:51 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:21 pm
So, the more pressing question: What is the 2L GPA around which you have a reasonable shot at clerking? As we all know, Fritton is useless.
I can't tell you anyone else, but I got a D. Ct. with 3.83 (after 2L, class of '23 so no P/F).

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm

Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation. (And a 3.80 is still very good at Penn, maybe just not top 10% like it is at NYU.)
Last edited by Anonymous User on Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:28 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation.
Damn, why doesn't NYU play ball and grade inflate. Surely it hurts them in clerkships?

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:51 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:21 pm
So, the more pressing question: What is the 2L GPA around which you have a reasonable shot at clerking? As we all know, Fritton is useless.
I can't tell you anyone else, but I got a D. Ct. with 3.83 (after 2L, class of '23 so no P/F).
In a more competitive district or less? Hoping this is EDPA and not for example Nebraska

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:42 pm

Which D.Ct. did you get w/ a 3.8 ----- EDPA? or something more competitive like DNJ, California, NY, et al

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:18 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:21 pm
So, the more pressing question: What is the 2L GPA around which you have a reasonable shot at clerking? As we all know, Fritton is useless.
I don’t know how A+s are calculated but I got multiple COA interviews with ~3.75 GPA after 2L. I took mainly black letters, I think like 12 credits of them each semester. No special recommenders or connections.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:18 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jan 24, 2023 4:21 pm
So, the more pressing question: What is the 2L GPA around which you have a reasonable shot at clerking? As we all know, Fritton is useless.
I don’t know how A+s are calculated but I got multiple COA interviews with ~3.75 GPA after 2L. I took mainly black letters, I think like 12 credits of them each semester. No special recommenders or connections.
Is this not including A+ as 4.3

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation.
No, a 3.8 would be very good for CLS. You can game the system and get grades for your note and TA, but CLS still enforces a curve for all classes, including small seminars.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:38 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation.
No, a 3.8 would be very good for CLS. You can game the system and get grades for your note and TA, but CLS still enforces a curve for all classes, including small seminars.
Most classes at Penn are curved as well, it’s just inconsistent. Very few people are gaming the system by taking classes with easy curves. CLS has a more generous 1L curve like Penn does.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:14 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:38 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation.
No, a 3.8 would be very good for CLS. You can game the system and get grades for your note and TA, but CLS still enforces a curve for all classes, including small seminars.
What are the cutoffs for top 10/15/25 percent at CLS then? A 3.8 after 2L is probably somewhere around top 15% at Penn

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:22 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:38 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation.
No, a 3.8 would be very good for CLS. You can game the system and get grades for your note and TA, but CLS still enforces a curve for all classes, including small seminars.
What are the cutoffs for top 10/15/25 percent at CLS then? A 3.8 after 2L is probably somewhere around top 15% at Penn
At NYU 3.8 is probably just outside the top 5%—probably around top 6%. Top 10% is like 3.75ish. Being a 3.8 at NYU would have you very safely within the folds of magna. I assume CLS is about the same but maybe not.

No idea if UChicago has grade inflation given their system although I guess that's the point/benefit of their system.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:31 pm

Guys I’m a Penn 3L and there really isn’t grade inflation. People get Bs in seminars and the black letters by and large have tough curves. We’re not that much better than NYU and Columbia in this regard.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:22 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:14 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:38 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:15 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 12:09 pm
Comparing the Penn grades to NYU and Columbia, there seems to be a lot more grade inflation. I wonder if this noticeably helps Penn overperform NYU and Columbia for clerkships or if judges just are in the know and pick applications accordingly. At Columbia and NYU above a 3.8 in my experience is phenomenal (less than 30ish a class) yet it seems like above a 3.8 at Penn is nothing that special with respect to clerkships.
My impression was that NYU is the outlier here and that CLS has similar grade inflation.
No, a 3.8 would be very good for CLS. You can game the system and get grades for your note and TA, but CLS still enforces a curve for all classes, including small seminars.
What are the cutoffs for top 10/15/25 percent at CLS then? A 3.8 after 2L is probably somewhere around top 15% at Penn
At NYU 3.8 is probably just outside the top 5%—probably around top 6%. Top 10% is like 3.75ish. Being a 3.8 at NYU would have you very safely within the folds of magna. I assume CLS is about the same but maybe not.

No idea if UChicago has grade inflation given their system although I guess that's the point/benefit of their system.
Previous poster here. To be fair, I have no idea what rank a 3.8 is because we have no indication before commencement, unlike NYU.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:31 pm
Guys I’m a Penn 3L and there really isn’t grade inflation. People get Bs in seminars and the black letters by and large have tough curves. We’re not that much better than NYU and Columbia in this regard.
Also a Penn 3L and I agree. I think people are really overestimating the grade inflation. Most black letters have curves similar to the Penn 1L curve but there are a couple outliers. The past grade distributions are available for any Penn student to view. Seminars are a bit murkier because the past grade distributions aren’t available for many of them.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:31 pm
Guys I’m a Penn 3L and there really isn’t grade inflation. People get Bs in seminars and the black letters by and large have tough curves. We’re not that much better than NYU and Columbia in this regard.
Also a Penn 3L and I agree. I think people are really overestimating the grade inflation. Most black letters have curves similar to the Penn 1L curve but there are a couple outliers. The past grade distributions are available for any Penn student to view. Seminars are a bit murkier because the past grade distributions aren’t available for many of them.
Another penn 3L. I think there is inflation. All of us on here should post GPAs and honors in a few months to document

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:25 pm

What is the Penn standard curve you would see in like a normal Black Letter Law, large class ... say idk evidence. NYU's is 1% A+; 10% A; 20% A-; 26% B+; 43% B. Imo that feels insanely grade deflated compared to schools like idk Georgetown... no idea why our school won't increase it just a little bit

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:25 pm
What is the Penn standard curve you would see in like a normal Black Letter Law, large class ... say idk evidence. NYU's is 1% A+; 10% A; 20% A-; 26% B+; 43% B. Imo that feels insanely grade deflated compared to schools like idk Georgetown... no idea why our school won't increase it just a little bit
I think the curve for evidence/corps is around 35-38% A grades which is slightly more generous than the 1L curve (which I think was around 35% A grades at max?). NYU is definitely stricter. During recruiting I heard of a couple firms that had the same GPA cutoffs for Penn/CLS and lower for NYU.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:25 pm
What is the Penn standard curve you would see in like a normal Black Letter Law, large class ... say idk evidence. NYU's is 1% A+; 10% A; 20% A-; 26% B+; 43% B. Imo that feels insanely grade deflated compared to schools like idk Georgetown... no idea why our school won't increase it just a little bit
More like

20, 30, 25, 25

Something like that. More A fewer B.

Some (say, Tax?) go 30, 30, 25, 15

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:25 pm
What is the Penn standard curve you would see in like a normal Black Letter Law, large class ... say idk evidence. NYU's is 1% A+; 10% A; 20% A-; 26% B+; 43% B. Imo that feels insanely grade deflated compared to schools like idk Georgetown... no idea why our school won't increase it just a little bit
More like

20, 30, 25, 25

Something like that. More A fewer B.

Some (say, Tax?) go 30, 30, 25, 15
50% curve for A/A- for a BLL class at NYU law would be pretty insane. Only course that gets close to that is some of the Fed Court classes. Sometimes we have certain Professors (cough famous podcaster) who grade actually worse than the recommended curve for some reason.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:41 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:35 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:25 pm
What is the Penn standard curve you would see in like a normal Black Letter Law, large class ... say idk evidence. NYU's is 1% A+; 10% A; 20% A-; 26% B+; 43% B. Imo that feels insanely grade deflated compared to schools like idk Georgetown... no idea why our school won't increase it just a little bit
More like

20, 30, 25, 25

Something like that. More A fewer B.

Some (say, Tax?) go 30, 30, 25, 15
50% curve for A/A- for a BLL class at NYU law would be pretty insane. Only course that gets close to that is some of the Fed Court classes. Sometimes we have certain Professors (cough famous podcaster) who grade actually worse than the recommended curve for some reason.
No evidence class at penn is 50/50. Fed courts is though... should be higher based on who takes it tbh, like how some schools do it with median GPA

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:54 am

Also all the Crim Pro classes at Penn have terrible curves

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:57 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:54 am
Also all the Crim Pro classes at Penn have terrible curves
Penn's problem is the lack of a standard curve after 1L, so it's impossible to really judge how hard a class is going to be in advance other than (some) word of mouth or checking the grade distribution on paper for the last couple of years. For example, Hovenkamp is notorious for giving out a ridiculous amount of As given the size of Antitrust - but in other classes, like Evidence, an A is more meaningful.

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Re: Grades at Penn

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:01 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:12 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:00 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:31 pm
Guys I’m a Penn 3L and there really isn’t grade inflation. People get Bs in seminars and the black letters by and large have tough curves. We’re not that much better than NYU and Columbia in this regard.
Also a Penn 3L and I agree. I think people are really overestimating the grade inflation. Most black letters have curves similar to the Penn 1L curve but there are a couple outliers. The past grade distributions are available for any Penn student to view. Seminars are a bit murkier because the past grade distributions aren’t available for many of them.
Another penn 3L. I think there is inflation. All of us on here should post GPAs and honors in a few months to document
Strong agree that we should post GPAs/schedule difficulty & honors in a few months to help out classes after ours, especially since our class will no longer be affected by the P/F. NYU has a thread documenting each year's cutoff for the various honors, and I wish we did as well.

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