Grades at Y Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

I can't really say anything other than "it would be better to have an H"? we didn't have a strict "no Ps" policy although I would think Srinivasan etc would

the prof recs are how you reliably get interviews---I would really focus on that, can't overstate importance. not just a letter, an actual relationship. way more important than getting an H vs P in a class

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

I can't really say anything other than "it would be better to have an H"? we didn't have a strict "no Ps" policy although I would think Srinivasan etc would

the prof recs are how you reliably get interviews---I would really focus on that, can't overstate importance. not just a letter, an actual relationship. way more important than getting an H vs P in a class

Thanks so much! Who do you think is included in the group of Srinivasan etc.?

[Anonymous User]

Y alum here. You're wasting your time here asking on TLS. Having close relationships with a professor/professors who will push you to the judges you want is more important than a single P or YLJ (which, frankly, many judges care little about). More broadly, there are many incredible judges who are not feeders, especially given the current make up of the Court. Figure out what is actually important to you.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

I can't really say anything other than "it would be better to have an H"? we didn't have a strict "no Ps" policy although I would think Srinivasan etc would

the prof recs are how you reliably get interviews---I would really focus on that, can't overstate importance. not just a letter, an actual relationship. way more important than getting an H vs P in a class

Thanks so much! Who do you think is included in the group of Srinivasan etc.?

I'm not aware of any chambers with a strict "no Ps" policy. Even Garland hired the rare Yale clerk with a P in the pre-plan years. On the other hand, feeders really don't love seeing Ps at Yale given its relaxed curve. Don't count yourself out for a feeder, but I'd try to keep additional Ps to an absolute minimum.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

I can't really say anything other than "it would be better to have an H"? we didn't have a strict "no Ps" policy although I would think Srinivasan etc would

the prof recs are how you reliably get interviews---I would really focus on that, can't overstate importance. not just a letter, an actual relationship. way more important than getting an H vs P in a class

Thanks so much! Who do you think is included in the group of Srinivasan etc.?

I'm not aware of any chambers with a strict "no Ps" policy. Even Garland hired the rare Yale clerk with a P in the pre-plan years. On the other hand, feeders really don't love seeing Ps at Yale given its relaxed curve. Don't count yourself out for a feeder, but I'd try to keep additional Ps to an absolute minimum.

I always thought that this was a strange supposition because there are many classes at Yale that have the same 33 percent curve as H and S, but they’re treated differentially.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all--at the risk of sounding very whiny, I just received my first semester 2L grade and received my first P at YLS. For those of you in chambers who have examined YLS applications at the COA level (especially those at at the semi-feeder/feeder level), does it seem like a P makes a difference in strength of application, assuming, of course, that I'm able to get all Hs the next semester before applications, and strong recommendations? I've taken about 1-2 blackletters each semester. Thanks so much!

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

I can't really say anything other than "it would be better to have an H"? we didn't have a strict "no Ps" policy although I would think Srinivasan etc would

the prof recs are how you reliably get interviews---I would really focus on that, can't overstate importance. not just a letter, an actual relationship. way more important than getting an H vs P in a class

Thanks so much! Who do you think is included in the group of Srinivasan etc.?

I'm not aware of any chambers with a strict "no Ps" policy. Even Garland hired the rare Yale clerk with a P in the pre-plan years. On the other hand, feeders really don't love seeing Ps at Yale given its relaxed curve. Don't count yourself out for a feeder, but I'd try to keep additional Ps to an absolute minimum.

I always thought that this was a strange supposition because there are many classes at Yale that have the same 33 percent curve as H and S, but they’re treated differentially.

Yes, but judges can't always figure out which classes have a strict curve. Also, Yale has many graduates with straight Hs. Harvard has few, and Stanford has almost none. I would guess Yale students with Ps end up getting graded "on the curve" against their classmates.

[Anonymous User]

you need rec letters from the right profs, YLJ, publications, FedSoc if you're conservative (or pretending to be) etc. two semesters of Hs and a P doesn't tell us anything

I'm confident I have the first, definitely have the second, and assuming that I have all Hs, would love to know whether anyone would look askance at the P.

I can't really say anything other than "it would be better to have an H"? we didn't have a strict "no Ps" policy although I would think Srinivasan etc would

the prof recs are how you reliably get interviews---I would really focus on that, can't overstate importance. not just a letter, an actual relationship. way more important than getting an H vs P in a class

Thanks so much! Who do you think is included in the group of Srinivasan etc.?

I'm not aware of any chambers with a strict "no Ps" policy. Even Garland hired the rare Yale clerk with a P in the pre-plan years. On the other hand, feeders really don't love seeing Ps at Yale given its relaxed curve. Don't count yourself out for a feeder, but I'd try to keep additional Ps to an absolute minimum.

I always thought that this was a strange supposition because there are many classes at Yale that have the same 33 percent curve as H and S, but they’re treated differentially.

Yes, but judges can't always figure out which classes have a strict curve. Also, Yale has many graduates with straight Hs. Harvard has few, and Stanford has almost none. I would guess Yale students with Ps end up getting graded "on the curve" against their classmates.

So, it sounds like anyone who has even a P on their transcript at any point is fighting an uphill battle for a feeder clerkship/SCOTUS? And OP is barely halfway through their second year.

[Anonymous User]

It also matters what the P is in. A P in Admin has sunk applicants.

[The Lsat Airbender]

So, it sounds like anyone who has even a P on their transcript at any point is fighting an uphill battle for a feeder clerkship/SCOTUS? And OP is barely halfway through their second year.

One would be "fighting uphill" for feeders regardless of grades. As has been noted, a P or two isn't going to hold someone back if they have enough [recommender][FedSoc][diversity][journal][other personal connection] firepower. But you do need some of those things, or else why would you ever get hired over your classmates with straight H's?

Y alum here. You're wasting your time here asking on TLS. Having close relationships with a professor/professors who will push you to the judges you want is more important than a single P or YLJ (which, frankly, many judges care little about). More broadly, there are many incredible judges who are not feeders, especially given the current make up of the Court. Figure out what is actually important to you.

^^^

[Anonymous User]

It also matters what the P is in. A P in Admin has sunk applicants.

OP here. P is not in admin, which I received an H in.

[Anonymous User]

So, it sounds like anyone who has even a P on their transcript at any point is fighting an uphill battle for a feeder clerkship/SCOTUS? And OP is barely halfway through their second year.

One would be "fighting uphill" for feeders regardless of grades. As has been noted, a P or two isn't going to hold someone back if they have enough [recommender][FedSoc][diversity][journal][other personal connection] firepower. But you do need some of those things, or else why would you ever get hired over your classmates with straight H's?

Y alum here. You're wasting your time here asking on TLS. Having close relationships with a professor/professors who will push you to the judges you want is more important than a single P or YLJ (which, frankly, many judges care little about). More broadly, there are many incredible judges who are not feeders, especially given the current make up of the Court. Figure out what is actually important to you.

^^^

OP here. I’m fairly certain I have better connections than other 2Ls as far as professors go, I’m just mostly curious if the P will meaningfully change my shot at a feeder or semi feeder. It sounds like the answer to that is no, as long as I have journal/Professor connections.

[The Lsat Airbender]

"Meaningfully" is a low bar. I don't think the P is immaterial. But the nice thing about YLS is that you can have a couple blemishes and still be considered one of the top 40 clerkship prospects in any given year.

[Anonymous User]

So, it sounds like anyone who has even a P on their transcript at any point is fighting an uphill battle for a feeder clerkship/SCOTUS? And OP is barely halfway through their second year.

One would be "fighting uphill" for feeders regardless of grades. As has been noted, a P or two isn't going to hold someone back if they have enough [recommender][FedSoc][diversity][journal][other personal connection] firepower. But you do need some of those things, or else why would you ever get hired over your classmates with straight H's?

Y alum here. You're wasting your time here asking on TLS. Having close relationships with a professor/professors who will push you to the judges you want is more important than a single P or YLJ (which, frankly, many judges care little about). More broadly, there are many incredible judges who are not feeders, especially given the current make up of the Court. Figure out what is actually important to you.

^^^

OP here. I’m fairly certain I have better connections than other 2Ls as far as professors go, I’m just mostly curious if the P will meaningfully change my shot at a feeder or semi feeder. It sounds like the answer to that is no, as long as I have journal/Professor connections.

I wouldn't say that. A P will meaningfully change your shot at a feeder or semi feeder; namely, it will make those outcomes less likely. You may have a strong enough resume to overcome that handicap, but don't count on someone like Srinivasan or Pillard absent extraordinary attenuating circumstances.

[Anonymous User]

In a similar situation as OP--thanks for all the wonderful info all. Would love to hear from people who have reviewed apps while clerking for semi/full feeders what they think.

[Anonymous User]

In a similar situation as OP--thanks for all the wonderful info all. Would love to hear from people who have reviewed apps while clerking for semi/full feeders what they think.

I'm one of the above posters and fit this description. What would you like to know?

[Anonymous User]

In a similar situation as OP--thanks for all the wonderful info all. Would love to hear from people who have reviewed apps while clerking for semi/full feeders what they think.

I'm one of the above posters and fit this description. What would you like to know?

Would love to know the sorts of factors in a resume/letter of recommendation that could overcome a P. I.e., is it the name of the recommender? What sorts of things are the recommenders saying that really stands out and can pull the file despite there being a P in your chambers?

[Anonymous User]

In a similar situation as OP--thanks for all the wonderful info all. Would love to hear from people who have reviewed apps while clerking for semi/full feeders what they think.

I'm one of the above posters and fit this description. What would you like to know?

Would love to know the sorts of factors in a resume/letter of recommendation that could overcome a P. I.e., is it the name of the recommender? What sorts of things are the recommenders saying that really stands out and can pull the file despite there being a P in your chambers?

(1) a clerkship with a judge my judge respects and (2) a very black letter-heavy transcript are virtual prereqs with my judge. Almost all of their clerks do an appellate/district combo, though obviously not all semi-/feeders are like that. Things that help include meeting the judge's idiosyncrasies (e.g. shared interests in areas of the law or prior employers or hobbies), ideological matching, professors and especially judges going to bat, and publications and other degrees (like a Rhodes/Marshall or JD/PhD). Not all of that is within your control, obviously, and there's a lot of luck involved.

[Anonymous User]

In a similar situation as OP--thanks for all the wonderful info all. Would love to hear from people who have reviewed apps while clerking for semi/full feeders what they think.

I'm one of the above posters and fit this description. What would you like to know?

Would love to know the sorts of factors in a resume/letter of recommendation that could overcome a P. I.e., is it the name of the recommender? What sorts of things are the recommenders saying that really stands out and can pull the file despite there being a P in your chambers?

(1) a clerkship with a judge my judge respects and (2) a very black letter-heavy transcript are virtual prereqs with my judge. Almost all of their clerks do an appellate/district combo, though obviously not all semi-/feeders are like that. Things that help include meeting the judge's idiosyncrasies (e.g. shared interests in areas of the law or prior employers or hobbies), ideological matching, professors and especially judges going to bat, and publications and other degrees (like a Rhodes/Marshall or JD/PhD). Not all of that is within your control, obviously, and there's a lot of luck involved.

What is considered "very black letter-heavy transcript"? 2 black letters each semester?

[Anonymous User]

It also matters what the P is in. A P in Admin has sunk applicants.

Not saying that isn't true (or potentially reasonable on, e.g., D.C. Cir.), but isn't Admin famously the most strictly curved class at YLS, or at least very close? I would think a judge would view it more negatively if someone got a P in a blackletter class with an easier curve, unless there's something I don't understand.

[Anonymous User]

It also matters what the P is in. A P in Admin has sunk applicants.

Not saying that isn't true (or potentially reasonable on, e.g., D.C. Cir.), but isn't Admin famously the most strictly curved class at YLS, or at least very close? I would think a judge would view it more negatively if someone got a P in a blackletter class with an easier curve, unless there's something I don't understand.

OP is asking specifically about feeders tho. Those judges can afford to be this picky.

[Anonymous User]

It also matters what the P is in. A P in Admin has sunk applicants.

Not saying that isn't true (or potentially reasonable on, e.g., D.C. Cir.), but isn't Admin famously the most strictly curved class at YLS, or at least very close? I would think a judge would view it more negatively if someone got a P in a blackletter class with an easier curve, unless there's something I don't understand.

OP is asking specifically about feeders tho. Those judges can afford to be this picky.

Original anon who posted about grades in Admin. Yes, this was from one feeder's perspective, and obviously not all judges feel the same way. But at a school where traditional markers of distinction are often lacking, grades in Admin can serve as a useful way to compare YLS candidates.

And, yes, Admin (at least with Parrillo and, I think, Rodriguez) is strictly curved. There are other blackletter classes with strict curves, and YLS clerks in chambers should be aware of them.

[Anonymous User]

Anon who's also a 2L at YLS and (seemingly) in much the same situation as OP. The advice I got from my recommenders and older friends was seriously don't sweat it -- obviously fewer Ps are better, but they're somewhat of a weak signal given that grades can be pretty arbitrary at YLS (if it makes you feel better, there are tons of anecdotal stories out there of feeder/SCOTUS clerks from YLS with 3+ Ps -- but who probably knocked it out of the park with recs, etc.).

I have heard that the game now for the top end of clerkships is less "how many Ps?" than "how many top exams?" precisely because the grading system is so opaque. People out in the world seem to know which professors shadowrank and ask you about it (I was asked in a firm job interview if I knew my Admin exam percentile!). That's to say, if you were on the upper end of that Admin H, that probably counts a lot more for you then a P in a class less germane to the work of the chambers you're targeting would count against you.