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What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:00 pm
by Anonymous User
Potential Clerk wants to know...
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:20 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:01 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Mar 04, 2021 12:05 pm
Depends on what you think is interesting. They do tons of administrative law, which includes a lot of very technical direct appeals from administrative agencies (think FERC regulations or Medicare reimbursement rates). They also handle most of the FOIA litigation, which imho is incredibly dry, and they have an extremely small criminal docket. On the upside, there's also not much immigration litigation (especially compared to courts like CA9), and in general it's one of the lighter work-loads for a COA.
Yeah, there's a circle of people for whom the DC Cir will have by far the most interesting docket, but most students who want to be litigators don't want to be pure admin specialists.
My rough impression is that CA2 might have the best docket for the average student, with a lot of complex business and criminal stuff, especially securities. CA7 is fairly similar but may be preferred by some because it publishes far more opinions and has more oral arguments. CA5 and CA11 have lots of death penalty stuff. CA9 has a broad docket and a uniquely high-profile/often-used en banc process but also a ton of immigration and habeas. CA8 and CA10 are probably the sleepiest but have some unique stuff because of Indian Country. CA3 is basically a less-prominent version of CA2 and is the leading circuit for bankruptcy. I don't know anything unique about CA6.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:49 am
by Anonymous User
That's a very basic breakdown. You could also consider things like, how much travel will be involved for panel argument weeks (and to where)? I clerked on CA11, which hears arguments in four cities but well over half of them are in Atlanta, a fun place to spend a week (and many others are in Miami). I would say these geographic concerns should be immediately behind the specific judge you'll be working for in terms of most important considerations, rather than trying parse the respective types of cases or prestige of CA 3/7/8 or whatever. No one cares unless you are gunning SCOTUS or very prestigious boutiques, and even then they probably don't care. The 2/9/DC heuristic probably stands up in those circumstances but the other geographic circuits are pretty similar. You will see very similar stuff at all of them.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:13 am
by Anonymous User
The 4th circuit hears very few oral arguments—maybe 10 or 11% of all cases. The unique(?) thing is that the judges sit roughly 6-7 times a year for a week at a time in Richmond, VA. Each panel of judges traditionally eats lunch together after argument (and their clerks eat lunch together separate from the judges). At dinner time, chambers usually pair up or triple up for dinner. And the clerks tend to go out to various bars together post-dinner. It’s a very collegial circuit for how hyper-partisan it can be (and yeesh, can it be hyper-partisan at times). While only C.J. Gregory sits in Richmond full time, each judge has a chambers in the Richmond courthouse in addition to their (much nicer) chambers in their home states. There are also special sittings at different schools around the circuit and other places on occasion (maybe 2-3 times a year). Only one panel of judges would travel for that and sit for only one day.
Caseload is more administrative law than you’d think given how many govt agencies are in VA (and to lesser extent MD). I think the cases are pretty typical as far as a circuit’s concerned. A mix of literally everything.
Because of how few cases get argued, most argued cases are resolved through published opinions, which is different from many circuits.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:09 pm
by Anonymous User
DC, 2, 7 are obviously mostly concentrated in one courthouse. DC and 7 have district courts in their buildings too. Federal Plaza in Chicago is the coolest modern courthouse complex I'm aware of, it's a set of wonderful van der Rohe designs with a great plaza in the middle of the Loop with a Calder sculpture out front.
I've always been a bit interested in judges who sit in unusual places. David Hamilton's chambers is in Indiana-Maurer Law School, not a federal building, and I think Milan Smith sits in a random building by the beach.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:00 pm
by Anonymous User
Anything unique about CA6 or Ohio in particular? Besides corn
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:30 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:09 pm
DC, 2, 7 are obviously mostly concentrated in one courthouse. DC and 7 have district courts in their buildings too. Federal Plaza in Chicago is the coolest modern courthouse complex I'm aware of, it's a set of wonderful van der Rohe designs with a great plaza in the middle of the Loop with a Calder sculpture out front.
I've always been a bit interested in judges who sit in unusual places. David Hamilton's chambers is in Indiana-Maurer Law School, not a federal building, and I think Milan Smith sits in a random building by the beach.
I've always been interested in this as well. On CA 5, Judges Owen and Duncan sit in the federal courthouse in Austin, while Willet's chambers is in a random office building in the Austin suburbs.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:47 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:09 pm
DC, 2, 7 are obviously mostly concentrated in one courthouse. DC and 7 have district courts in their buildings too. Federal Plaza in Chicago is the coolest modern courthouse complex I'm aware of, it's a set of wonderful van der Rohe designs with a great plaza in the middle of the Loop with a Calder sculpture out front.
I've always been a bit interested in judges who sit in unusual places. David Hamilton's chambers is in Indiana-Maurer Law School, not a federal building, and I think Milan Smith sits in a random building by the beach.
I've always been interested in this as well. On CA 5, Judges Owen and Duncan sit in the federal courthouse in Austin, while Willet's chambers is in a random office building in the Austin suburbs.
On CA3, Chief Judge Smith sits alone in a nondescript office building in Altoona, PA. Not sure why. His clerks weren’t super thrilled about this, but I suppose COL is super low.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:45 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:00 pm
Anything unique about CA6 or Ohio in particular? Besides corn
Lots of senior judges and pretty average number of filings compared to other circuits, so very manageable caseload. Gets a quite a lot of election appeals out of Michigan & Ohio if you clerk in an election cycle too.
Cincinnati is sorta cool, though I wish there were sittings in like... Ann Arbor or Nashville once in awhile to see more of the Circuit.
That's about it lol
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:20 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:00 pm
Anything unique about CA6 or Ohio in particular? Besides corn
Lots of senior judges and pretty average number of filings compared to other circuits, so very manageable caseload. Gets a quite a lot of election appeals out of Michigan & Ohio if you clerk in an election cycle too.
Cincinnati is sorta cool, though I wish there were sittings in like... Ann Arbor or Nashville once in awhile to see more of the Circuit.
That's about it lol
Not sure if "unique," but CA6 has a substantial docket of death penalty cases. Three of the four states in the circuit still have the death penalty.
CA6 also has some Black Lung Benefits Act cases. I think CA4 sees some of those too.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:06 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:47 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:30 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:09 pm
DC, 2, 7 are obviously mostly concentrated in one courthouse. DC and 7 have district courts in their buildings too. Federal Plaza in Chicago is the coolest modern courthouse complex I'm aware of, it's a set of wonderful van der Rohe designs with a great plaza in the middle of the Loop with a Calder sculpture out front.
I've always been a bit interested in judges who sit in unusual places. David Hamilton's chambers is in Indiana-Maurer Law School, not a federal building, and I think Milan Smith sits in a random building by the beach.
I've always been interested in this as well. On CA 5, Judges Owen and Duncan sit in the federal courthouse in Austin, while Willet's chambers is in a random office building in the Austin suburbs.
On CA3, Chief Judge Smith sits alone in a nondescript office building in Altoona, PA. Not sure why. His clerks weren’t super thrilled about this, but I suppose COL is super low.
CA9 has Milan Smith in El Segundo and used to have Harry Pregerson up in the SFV. Neither wanted the commute to Pasadena. Also the 5 San Diego judges are spread out across several buildings because San Diego's courthouse space is tight. Ryan Nelson is in a random office in Idaho Falls, which doesn't have a courthouse. The 4 Idaho judges actually sit in 4 different cities (Tallman, Smith, and Trott are in regular federal district courthouses).
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:05 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:20 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:00 pm
Anything unique about CA6 or Ohio in particular? Besides corn
Lots of senior judges and pretty average number of filings compared to other circuits, so very manageable caseload. Gets a quite a lot of election appeals out of Michigan & Ohio if you clerk in an election cycle too.
Cincinnati is sorta cool, though I wish there were sittings in like... Ann Arbor or Nashville once in awhile to see more of the Circuit.
That's about it lol
Not sure if "unique," but CA6 has a substantial docket of death penalty cases. Three of the four states in the circuit still have the death penalty.
CA6 also has some Black Lung Benefits Act cases. I think CA4 sees some of those too.
I’ve noticed the DP stuff come up a lot. Why the plethora of Black Lung cases?
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2021 10:35 pm
by nixy
coal mines in Kentucky.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:01 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:00 pm
Anything unique about CA6 or Ohio in particular? Besides corn
Lots of senior judges and pretty average number of filings compared to other circuits, so very manageable caseload. Gets a quite a lot of election appeals out of Michigan & Ohio if you clerk in an election cycle too.
Cincinnati is sorta cool, though I wish there were sittings in like... Ann Arbor or Nashville once in awhile to see more of the Circuit.
That's about it lol
I'll be in Ohio during midterms, so I wonder if I'll get to see anything. Not sure how that plays out on the district level tbh.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:19 pm
by Anonymous User
Fun thread. Other than interesting Indian law, any thing else particularly notable about the 8th circuit? It covers a lot of area.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:57 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:19 pm
Fun thread. Other than interesting Indian law, any thing else particularly notable about the 8th circuit? It covers a lot of area.
Yeah, that’s something notable about it, it geographically makes no sense (AR and MN together?) so the judges have pretty different cultural backgrounds which one CA8 judge said can make things interesting. It may be the most dispersed circuit also because it has a lot of judges in small cities and only one city (MSP) has more than one active judge.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:14 pm
by Anonymous User
Anything interesting about CA3? I hear the jurisdiction over DE makes for interesting securities/commercial cases, as well as possible Big Pharma matters over NJ(mecca of the industry).
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:23 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:14 pm
Anything interesting about CA3? I hear the jurisdiction over DE makes for interesting securities/commercial cases, as well as possible Big Pharma matters over NJ(mecca of the industry).
Former CA3 clerk. The Delaware factor isn't as big as you might think, thanks to the outsized popularity of the Delaware state courts. Some good bankruptcy appeals bubble up, though (which Ambro and Jordan like to snatch--thank god for the specialists), and some Big Pharma matters too (although, of course, the patent cases all go elsewhere), but it didn't feel like an outsized part of the docket. All said, CA3 is very meat-and-potatoes: a little bit of everything, alongside a
lot of immigration cases, with very few "political" cases hitting the Federal Reports my year.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:28 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:14 pm
Anything interesting about CA3? I hear the jurisdiction over DE makes for interesting securities/commercial cases, as well as possible Big Pharma matters over NJ(mecca of the industry).
They're really big on their collegiality, though I don't know if that affects clerks really.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:31 am
by Anonymous User
I'm clerking there now. There was at least one high profile case relating to the PA election results, and in any election year I think you can expect to see political cases. There have also been some high profile cases relating to drug and firearms laws. We've seen some products liability cases, mostly coming out of multidistrict or multicounty litigations in NJ or PA. As someone mentioned, the Delaware Chancery (fiduciary duty, corporate governance, appraisals etc) and D.Del patent cases don't come to us, but most sittings have one or two Biglaw-represented complex commercial and/or bankruptcy cases. Otherwise typical and small-time: immigration, criminal appeals, employment, Social Secrity, insurance disputes.
On collegiality, the court strives for it and everyone is very polite, but there are four hyperconservative Trump appointees who don't seem as willing to meet in the middle. The court is pretty split ideologically now, so more opinions are coming out with strongly worded dissents. But cases very rarely go en banc.
One other thing to note is that the Third Circuit is known for writing a very high amount of unpublished opinions and hearing a relatively low amount of arguments. So the workload (i.e. bench memos, detailed opinions) is much less than CA2, which hears argument on pretty much every case from what I heard.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:34 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:31 am
I'm clerking there now. There was at least one high profile case relating to the PA election results, and in any election year I think you can expect to see political cases. There have also been some high profile cases relating to drug and firearms laws. We've seen some products liability cases, mostly coming out of multidistrict or multicounty litigations in NJ or PA. As someone mentioned, the Delaware Chancery (fiduciary duty, corporate governance, appraisals etc) and D.Del patent cases don't come to us, but most sittings have one or two Biglaw-represented complex commercial and/or bankruptcy cases. Otherwise typical and small-time: immigration, criminal appeals, employment, Social Secrity, insurance disputes.
On collegiality, the court strives for it and everyone is very polite, but there are four hyperconservative Trump appointees who don't seem as willing to meet in the middle. The court is pretty split ideologically now, so more opinions are coming out with strongly worded dissents. But cases very rarely go en banc.
One other thing to note is that the Third Circuit is known for writing a very high amount of unpublished opinions and hearing a relatively low amount of arguments. So the workload (i.e. bench memos, detailed opinions) is much less than CA2, which hears argument on pretty much every case from what I heard.
CA2 also publishes few opinions and doesn’t really go en banc.
What leads you to say the Trump appointees are hyperconservative? The general reputation of the ones I know of—especially Bibas who’s the highest-profile—is that they’re pretty mainstream. Any impressions of specific judges you’d be willing to share, especially the new ones, would be welcome.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:11 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:34 am
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:31 am
I'm clerking there now. There was at least one high profile case relating to the PA election results, and in any election year I think you can expect to see political cases. There have also been some high profile cases relating to drug and firearms laws. We've seen some products liability cases, mostly coming out of multidistrict or multicounty litigations in NJ or PA. As someone mentioned, the Delaware Chancery (fiduciary duty, corporate governance, appraisals etc) and D.Del patent cases don't come to us, but most sittings have one or two Biglaw-represented complex commercial and/or bankruptcy cases. Otherwise typical and small-time: immigration, criminal appeals, employment, Social Secrity, insurance disputes.
On collegiality, the court strives for it and everyone is very polite, but there are four hyperconservative Trump appointees who don't seem as willing to meet in the middle. The court is pretty split ideologically now, so more opinions are coming out with strongly worded dissents. But cases very rarely go en banc.
One other thing to note is that the Third Circuit is known for writing a very high amount of unpublished opinions and hearing a relatively low amount of arguments. So the workload (i.e. bench memos, detailed opinions) is much less than CA2, which hears argument on pretty much every case from what I heard.
CA2 also publishes few opinions and doesn’t really go en banc.
What leads you to say the Trump appointees are hyperconservative? The general reputation of the ones I know of—especially Bibas who’s the highest-profile—is that they’re pretty mainstream. Any impressions of specific judges you’d be willing to share, especially the new ones, would be welcome.
Different anon, clerked last year on CA3. Definitely don't agree with previous anon's assessment. For one, yes, Bibas is notably more progressive on criminal justice and general due process issues than many. When I think about the en banc split (in the very rare en banc cases), yeah, the four Trump appointees are probably likely to fall on one side of the ledger. But on some issues, Shwartz is likely to join them. On other issues, I could say the same about Ambro. And so on. CA3 just doesn't seem as ideologically charged to me across the board, although sure McKee and Restrepo might have different starting assumptions in criminal cases than, say, Porter or Phipps.
Also confused about the reference to collegiality. Sure, the court wants to avoid dissents, and some of the Trump appointees seem more open to dissenting. I wouldn't personally call that a fracture from the collegial culture. Collegiality can't possibly mean securing 3-0 decisions across most types of cases, can it? My judge sat with 3 of the 4 during my term, and they seemed very friendly, polite, and like they would make for good bosses. Yeah, it's accurate to call them conservative judges, but none of them is anything like Ho, if we're talking "hyperconservative."
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:55 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:34 am
What leads you to say the Trump appointees are hyperconservative? The general reputation of the ones I know of—especially Bibas who’s the highest-profile—is that they’re pretty mainstream. Any impressions of specific judges you’d be willing to share, especially the new ones, would be welcome.
What little I've heard about Matey suggests he's staking out a position pretty far to the right, and hires mostly Federalist Society clerks. A big shift from the judge he replaced.
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:11 am
by Anonymous User
Anyone with knowledge about CA1? Also, what’s it like to clerk in NH, RI, and ME(Southerner here lol)
Re: What makes each circuit special/what are the distinctive caseloads for each
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:43 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:11 am
Anyone with knowledge about CA1? Also, what’s it like to clerk in NH, RI, and ME(Southerner here lol)
CA1 is the smallest court of appeals and has a light caseload, with much of that caseload coming out of Puerto Rico, where the court sits 1-2 times per year (the rest of the sittings are in Boston). The caseload is a mix of everything, with the PR cases tilting toward the criminal side. Because of the light caseload CA1 publishes opinions fairly often.
Because the court is so small it can feel clubby, and the judges all hire heavily from Harvard. Barron is a feederish liberal and the hardest clerkship to get. The other Boston judge, Lynch, is highly respected as a judge but has a reputation as an extremely difficult person to work for (or to appear in front of). Howard in NH is the most conservative judge on the court, but is more center-right than anything. Thompson in RI likes to hire URMs and people with work experience. Kayatta in ME is a solid judge might be the most "gettable" clerkship for a non-URM applicant. The PR seat is vacant. The seniors include Boudin in Boston, who used to be a big feeder; Selya in RI, who is famous for using ridiculous 15-letter vocab words in opinions; Lipez in ME, who is quite liberal; and Stahl in Boston, who I know nothing about. Justice Souter also sits with the court often.
As far as what it's like to clerk in the non-Boston cities...Portland is a great place to live if you can handle the long winter. One of the best restaurant and brewery cities in America and Maine is full of outdoorsy things to do during its relatively short summer. Concord is boring as hell but you're within an hour of the mountains and beach and hey, no state taxes! (Many Howard clerks reverse commute from Boston, which is ambitious--unless I had a SO in Boston, I would bite the bullet and live in Concord.) Providence is kind of an underrated city, also a good restaurant scene and close to what are IMHO the best beaches in New England.