2023-2024 Clerkship Application Thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

People need to stop fucking asking who’s moved or who hasn’t — don’t worry about it. If you get an interview, then you get one. If you don’t, you don’t. The sooner you learn to let go, the happier and more relaxed you’ll be.

Mod note: User kolio6 outed for anon abuse.

[Anonymous User]

People need to stop fucking asking who’s moved or who hasn’t — don’t worry about it. If you get an interview, then you get one. If you don’t, you don’t. The sooner you learn to let go, the happier and more relaxed you’ll be.

Mod Note: User kolio6 outed for anon abuse.

[Anonymous User]

People need to stop fucking asking who’s moved or who hasn’t — don’t worry about it. If you get an interview, then you get one. If you don’t, you don’t. The sooner you learn to let go, the happier and more relaxed you’ll be.

The only reason this thread exists for that exact information lmao

[Anonymous User]

Then this thread, and all like it, should cease to exist.

[Anonymous User]

Are there any circuit judges who regularly hire alumni who are a few years out into practice?

Perez, too

Speaking of Perez-has anyone heard anything from her?

[Anonymous User]

For those of us that struck out completely is there that much of an alumni boost for next year assuming our grades are the same? I'll still try again, but wondering if I should use this cycle as an indication that I was way too optimistic.

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

[Anonymous User]

For those of us that struck out completely is there that much of an alumni boost for next year assuming our grades are the same? I'll still try again, but wondering if I should use this cycle as an indication that I was way too optimistic.

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

[Anonymous User]

For those of us that struck out completely is there that much of an alumni boost for next year assuming our grades are the same? I'll still try again, but wondering if I should use this cycle as an indication that I was way too optimistic.

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

[Anonymous User]

For those of us that struck out completely is there that much of an alumni boost for next year assuming our grades are the same? I'll still try again, but wondering if I should use this cycle as an indication that I was way too optimistic.

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

[Anonymous User]

This is a random one, but is there any way to tell whether an OSCAR message from chambers is an individual or a forum response? I just got a very kind rejection from a judge I didn't interview with, and can't tell if it was specific feedback or just a mass message.

[Anonymous User]

Are there any circuit judges who regularly hire alumni who are a few years out into practice?

Perez, too

Speaking of Perez-has anyone heard anything from her?

My understanding is that she has moved in some capacity. However, I had a recommender reach out to her this week, and she emailed a response basically giving the standard "Thanks, I will give the application a close look," which I'm not sure she would do if she was totally filled at this point.

[kolio6]

For those of us that struck out completely is there that much of an alumni boost for next year assuming our grades are the same? I'll still try again, but wondering if I should use this cycle as an indication that I was way too optimistic.

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

^I think it's absurd to complain about this. Knowing how to ask for help and to form close connections with mentors are essential life skills. If you're so silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others, then that's not some "disparity"—that's a personal shortcoming you should be trying to overcome.

[Anonymous User]

Do judges ghost post-interview? Been over a week and nothing either way though the position is for 2025 - it seem to go well but the wait sucks

[nixy]

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

^I think it's absurd to complain about this. Knowing how to ask for help and to form close connections with mentors are essential life skills. If you're so silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others, then that's not some "disparity"—that's a personal shortcoming you should be trying to overcome.

I get your overall point, but it seems a stretch to say that people who are reluctant to ask others for favors or who are “silent but hardworking” are “silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others.” People do need to make connections and advocate for themselves, and need to get along with others, but you can be both quiet and an effective employee. You just may miss out on some of the benefits of gladhanding.

I think it’s fair to note that making connections isn’t as easy for some students as for others, whether because of your psychology (shyness) or your background (did you grow up in a family/setting that taught you professors were/weren’t a good source of assistance?). I agree that people should work on that, but the reasons why it’s harder for some people can be unfair.

[Anonymous User]

Hmm...well, I'm curious to know why you think you struck out completely? How broadly did you apply? I was an alumni applicant and had success but I think it was less to do with the fact that I had work experience and more that I applied broadly and got my professors to make calls in support of my applicant.

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

^I think it's absurd to complain about this. Knowing how to ask for help and to form close connections with mentors are essential life skills. If you're so silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others, then that's not some "disparity"—that's a personal shortcoming you should be trying to overcome.

This is moronic, being aggressive asking for favors and attention is typically a faux pas, not a sign of social skills, the clerkship process is just weird. I think TLS can overrate the importance of calls and recs, though, and lots of profs do a good job even for applicants who don’t live in office hours.

[kolio6]

MVP and top 5% + LR.Applied to every Circuit court judge that took apps but no district courts. Thought that would have been alright since all in my Circuit apps totaled about 90, but it seems like this was a poor idea. Next time perhaps my target would be non SDNY/DDC district courts.

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

^I think it's absurd to complain about this. Knowing how to ask for help and to form close connections with mentors are essential life skills. If you're so silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others, then that's not some "disparity"—that's a personal shortcoming you should be trying to overcome.

This is moronic, being aggressive asking for favors and attention is typically a faux pas, not a sign of social skills, the clerkship process is just weird. I think TLS can overrate the importance of calls and recs, though, and lots of profs do a good job even for applicants who don’t live in office hours.

Sure, being aggressive is a faux pas. But what's not a faux pas is forming relationships by dropping by office hours, asking good questions in class, taking multiple classes with the same professor, or offering to RA or TA. If all you have is an A on an exam, how is the judge vetting you supposed to know if your recommender actually knows you and can actually vouch for you? This is not just a grades game.

Now, of course, the line might be thin between sucking dick and actually having genuine interest in having mentors for the rest of your career. But if you're so worried about crossing that line that you have to come up with excuses about "disparities" or the poor "quiet students," then you're just kidding yourself and blinking at reality.

[Anonymous User]

Got it. You definitely applied broadly so you might not be out of the running for this cycle. I received some circuit interviews as late as the first week of July when I applied. For this round, if you know of some judges who aren't yet full and/or haven't started interviewing, I might consider asking your recommenders to give the judge a call.

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

^I think it's absurd to complain about this. Knowing how to ask for help and to form close connections with mentors are essential life skills. If you're so silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others, then that's not some "disparity"—that's a personal shortcoming you should be trying to overcome.

This is moronic, being aggressive asking for favors and attention is typically a faux pas, not a sign of social skills, the clerkship process is just weird. I think TLS can overrate the importance of calls and recs, though, and lots of profs do a good job even for applicants who don’t live in office hours.

Sure, being aggressive is a faux pas. But what's not a faux pas is forming relationships by dropping by office hours, asking good questions in class, taking multiple classes with the same professor, or offering to RA or TA. If all you have is an A on an exam, how is the judge vetting you supposed to know if your recommender actually knows you and can actually vouch for you? This is not just a grades game.

Now, of course, the line might be thin between sucking dick and actually having genuine interest in having mentors for the rest of your career. But if you're so worried about crossing that line that you have to come up with excuses about "disparities" or the poor "quiet students," then you're just kidding yourself and blinking at reality.

What if one can both acknowledge reality and the importance of self-improvement while simultaneously commenting on the potential issues with said reality?

[Anonymous User]

Do judges ghost post-interview? Been over a week and nothing either way though the position is for 2025 - it seem to go well but the wait sucks

Unfortunately they do. I was ghosted by a COA judge after I interviewed in Feb. Never heard back and then eventually saw the position was filled on OSCAR. Lol.

[Anonymous User]

Do judges ghost post-interview? Been over a week and nothing either way though the position is for 2025 - it seem to go well but the wait sucks

Unfortunately they do. I was ghosted by a COA judge after I interviewed in Feb. Never heard back and then eventually saw the position was filled on OSCAR. Lol.

Damn that's rude

[Anonymous User]

Do judges ghost post-interview? Been over a week and nothing either way though the position is for 2025 - it seem to go well but the wait sucks

Unfortunately they do. I was ghosted by a COA judge after I interviewed in Feb. Never heard back and then eventually saw the position was filled on OSCAR. Lol.

Same thing happened to me. I wonder if it was the same judge.

[kolio6]

Thanks! Part of my issue may have been that I am kinda a shy person and not really very aggressive with recommenders about this process and calls. Guess I should just grow balls and ask them point blank in email if they would mind calling.

This is the right move! I know it can be a bit awkward, but I think the best way to calm yourself is to know that this is literally part of their job! They expect students to ask for this stuff and they expect to help the students out.

One of the more unfortunate things about the clerkship process seems to be that it rewards those students who are more agressive and in the "in" group at the expense of those who are the silent but hardworking type. Then again, that is not really unique to clerkship applications and is more a complaint about life, but such disparities certainly come to the fold during this process.

^I think it's absurd to complain about this. Knowing how to ask for help and to form close connections with mentors are essential life skills. If you're so silent to the detriment of your ability to work with or for others, then that's not some "disparity"—that's a personal shortcoming you should be trying to overcome.

This is moronic, being aggressive asking for favors and attention is typically a faux pas, not a sign of social skills, the clerkship process is just weird. I think TLS can overrate the importance of calls and recs, though, and lots of profs do a good job even for applicants who don’t live in office hours.

Sure, being aggressive is a faux pas. But what's not a faux pas is forming relationships by dropping by office hours, asking good questions in class, taking multiple classes with the same professor, or offering to RA or TA. If all you have is an A on an exam, how is the judge vetting you supposed to know if your recommender actually knows you and can actually vouch for you? This is not just a grades game.

Now, of course, the line might be thin between sucking dick and actually having genuine interest in having mentors for the rest of your career. But if you're so worried about crossing that line that you have to come up with excuses about "disparities" or the poor "quiet students," then you're just kidding yourself and blinking at reality.

What if one can both acknowledge reality and the importance of self-improvement while simultaneously commenting on the potential issues with said reality?

That absolutely works by me. I'm just not here for people whining about what I see as one of the least problematic parts of the process. Really, people should focus on how messed up the plan is by basically forcing judges to rely on proxies like school or the lack of transparency about what exactly judges are looking for.

[Anonymous User]

There's grounds to call an unofficial process that's external to the actual clerkship application yet impacts students' prospects problematic. And judges rely on proxies because of the volume of applicants. Getting rid of the plan won't do away with that.

[Anonymous User]

Off-plan hiring is much more random and connections-based than on-plan hiring; for students outside of top schools, it’s often hard to even figure out which judges are hiring.

[Anonymous User]

Lee (2d Cir) has moved

[Anonymous User]

Lee (2d Cir) has moved

Just now or moved last week and now just confirming?