Ate a P 1L fall, feeders out of running? Forum

[Anonymous User]

At H. Hit decent grades but a little bummed, no DSes (books) and fucked up an exam leading to a rightful P.

Obviously not in any kind of early feeder conversation with those results and doubt I will be at the end of the year even if I bang all H's and eke out a DS. My question is whether the P will knock me out of the running for feeders in general on plan since I think conventional wisdom is that the P's matter more than the H/DS splits.

[Iowahawk]

If you're conservative, I have no idea what standards for hiring at H are like after 1L, that's maybe something to ask someone from your Fed Soc chapter. If you're liberal, it's really too early to worry about feeders, but there are judges who require straight Hs. In general, entering law school worried about clerking on the Supreme Court is probably not a good way to go about things. Even at Harvard, the odds of you clerking on the Supreme Court are very very low, especially if you're liberal. This year, seven students from Harvard clerked on SCOTUS out of a class size of 600.

[Anonymous User]

To be honest, I do think it means you are largely out of the running. Its not the P itself, if you managed to get like 4 DS's this semester and made law review I don't think there are that many feeders who would hold a single P against you. However, the chances of that are extremely low. You have what, like a 3.8 or so, which is almost certainly top 20% as a 1L? I think its probably time to realize that while you are going to have a great career, and will very likely get a district court clerkship in a good district or even a regular COA if you are geographically flexible/lucky/conservative, feeders/SCOTUS are probably off the table.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I don’t understand how grades work at H, but as someone at a different school that feeders hire from now and again, it sounds like there are some pretty alarmist answers in here. Yeah obviously it helps to be the valedictorian if you want a feeder. But based on my conversations with the profs at my school who are the sort of clerkship gurus, there’s about one judge in the country who views it as disqualifying if your grades are not absolutely perfect and he’s up for AG.

I’ve made a few B’s, granted I’m still in the top 5%, but I’ve been repeatedly assured by profs that at least a few feeders and a good number of semi-feeders would at least consider hiring me. Research into alums who have clerked bear that out. So take that as you will; I know it’s a different school with a different grading system. There’s certainly some wisdom to not tying your self-worth in law school to the prospect of a SCOTUS clerkship because the chances are so slim for anyone, but to the extent that it keeps you going to have a dream, it sounds to me like you don’t need to pronounce that dream dead based on one meh grade.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I don’t understand how grades work at H, but as someone at a different school that feeders hire from now and again, it sounds like there are some pretty alarmist answers in here. Yeah obviously it helps to be the valedictorian if you want a feeder. But based on my conversations with the profs at my school who are the sort of clerkship gurus, there’s about one judge in the country who views it as disqualifying if your grades are not absolutely perfect and he’s up for AG.

I’ve made a few B’s, granted I’m still in the top 5%, but I’ve been repeatedly assured by profs that at least a few feeders and a good number of semi-feeders would at least consider hiring me. Research into alums who have clerked bear that out. So take that as you will; I know it’s a different school with a different grading system. There’s certainly some wisdom to not tying your self-worth in law school to the prospect of a SCOTUS clerkship because the chances are so slim for anyone, but to the extent that it keeps you going to have a dream, it sounds to me like you don’t need to pronounce that dream dead based on one meh grade.

Different anon. I don't know which school you attend, but "a few" Bs is usually disqualifying for SCOTUS. And although some semi-feeders are somewhat less nit-picky, it's not only Garland who demands perfect or essentially-perfect grades. The same goes for Srinivasan, Wilkinson, Katzmann, Fletcher, Sutton, Watford, Friedland, Tatel, and many others. This would be a different story if OP had 3-4 DS's to balance out the P. Without them, a feeder is probably not in the cards.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I don’t understand how grades work at H, but as someone at a different school that feeders hire from now and again, it sounds like there are some pretty alarmist answers in here. Yeah obviously it helps to be the valedictorian if you want a feeder. But based on my conversations with the profs at my school who are the sort of clerkship gurus, there’s about one judge in the country who views it as disqualifying if your grades are not absolutely perfect and he’s up for AG.

I’ve made a few B’s, granted I’m still in the top 5%, but I’ve been repeatedly assured by profs that at least a few feeders and a good number of semi-feeders would at least consider hiring me. Research into alums who have clerked bear that out. So take that as you will; I know it’s a different school with a different grading system. There’s certainly some wisdom to not tying your self-worth in law school to the prospect of a SCOTUS clerkship because the chances are so slim for anyone, but to the extent that it keeps you going to have a dream, it sounds to me like you don’t need to pronounce that dream dead based on one meh grade.

Different anon. I don't know which school you attend, but "a few" Bs is usually disqualifying for SCOTUS. And although some semi-feeders are somewhat less nit-picky, it's not only Garland who demands perfect or essentially-perfect grades. The same goes for Srinivasan, Wilkinson, Katzmann, Fletcher, Sutton, Watford, Friedland, Tatel, and many others. This would be a different story if OP had 3-4 DS's to balance out the P. Without them, a feeder is probably not in the cards.

A few Bs isn’t disqualifying at Chicago if you’re conservative—the unusually low curve means straight As = probably the literal valedictorian here, and I’m sure some classes have no straight A students—but that’s a few Bs over the course of law school, not 1L year. Fletcher, Sutton, Tatel hire reasonably often from Chicago and definitely don’t require straight As. Same with Pryor, O’Scannlain, Thapar, and Katsas. Friedland rarely hires from Chicago but both of the students she has were not in the top 10% (which likely means no more than ~half As). Since conservatives hire so early connections matter a lot—Adam Mortara’s favorite 1Ls will get Pryor—and students who get them will often get Bs at some point, especially since many GPAs drop after 1L here. I think Garland, Srinivasan, and maybe Katzmann do, which means they’ve hired like three clerks combined ever from Chicago.

Feeders are kind of moot here if you’re liberal, though, since you have no real chance at SCOTUS period unless you can land Roberts or you’re a URM, though that may change if/when Jackson or Kruger replace Breyer.

[Anonymous User]

My anecdotal experience from H: classmates who got clerkships with the feederiest of the feeders (Garland, Katzmann, Boasberg, etc.*) had perfect grades. Think three or four DSs each semester of 1L. People who had one or two DSs with the remainder Hs, maybe a P or two, easily landed clerkships with more "normal" but still excellent judges in SDNY and DDC and moved up to non-feeder circuit judges after. With good luck, networking, and consistent or improving grades, you might find a clerkship with an occasional feeder, but to be frank, I think the odds are long.

I know a lot of people, myself included, with grades similar to yours (more Hs than Ps) who ended up with excellent non-feeder clerkships in DDC, SDNY, CA2, and even CADC. The path may be longer, potentially requiring work experience before clerking, but it is absolutely feasible. Remember that feeder and SCOTUS clerkships are rare, and you will still gain incredible training, be a valuable commodity on the legal market, and find rewarding work without one.

*I don't know about the conservatives.

[Anonymous User]

My anecdotal experience from H: classmates who got clerkships with the feederiest of the feeders (Garland, Katzmann, Boasberg, etc.*) had perfect grades. Think three or four DSs each semester of 1L. People who had one or two DSs with the remainder Hs, maybe a P or two, easily landed clerkships with more "normal" but still excellent judges in SDNY and DDC and moved up to non-feeder circuit judges after. With good luck, networking, and consistent or improving grades, you might find a clerkship with an occasional feeder, but to be frank, I think the odds are long.

I know a lot of people, myself included, with grades similar to yours (more Hs than Ps) who ended up with excellent non-feeder clerkships in DDC, SDNY, CA2, and even CADC. The path may be longer, potentially requiring work experience before clerking, but it is absolutely feasible. Remember that feeder and SCOTUS clerkships are rare, and you will still gain incredible training, be a valuable commodity on the legal market, and find rewarding work without one.

*I don't know about the conservatives.

Not doubting your H bona fides, but are there really that many students with 6-8 DSes in a year? 7-8 sounds like the one Sears winner and potentially even an anomalous Sears winner. 6 I can see a couple people having, but does that range really cover *all* the legit liberal feeders for both district and Circuit?

[Anonymous User]

My anecdotal experience from H: classmates who got clerkships with the feederiest of the feeders (Garland, Katzmann, Boasberg, etc.*) had perfect grades. Think three or four DSs each semester of 1L. People who had one or two DSs with the remainder Hs, maybe a P or two, easily landed clerkships with more "normal" but still excellent judges in SDNY and DDC and moved up to non-feeder circuit judges after. With good luck, networking, and consistent or improving grades, you might find a clerkship with an occasional feeder, but to be frank, I think the odds are long.

I know a lot of people, myself included, with grades similar to yours (more Hs than Ps) who ended up with excellent non-feeder clerkships in DDC, SDNY, CA2, and even CADC. The path may be longer, potentially requiring work experience before clerking, but it is absolutely feasible. Remember that feeder and SCOTUS clerkships are rare, and you will still gain incredible training, be a valuable commodity on the legal market, and find rewarding work without one.

*I don't know about the conservatives.

Not doubting your H bona fides, but are there really that many students with 6-8 DSes in a year? 7-8 sounds like the one Sears winner and potentially even an anomalous Sears winner. 6 I can see a couple people having, but does that range really cover *all* the legit liberal feeders for both district and Circuit?

Anon above. So yes, 7-8 is (almost by definition) Sears level, but it's also true that of the four people I know who clerked for one of the three judges mentioned, two were Sears winners and the other two were very close. I'd guess—and acknowledge this is based on totally anecdotal, personal, possibly anomalous experience—that at least a few per year get 6. I can say with more certainty that often several people per section get 4-5. That adds up to a lot of people in the 4-6 range (maybe two dozen?) at the front of the line for feeders. Then throw in the people with special credentials (HLR President, Ames oralists, Rhodes and Marshall scholars, the unusually well connected, etc.) who have "normal" grades, and it's tough for anyone else to stand out to a feeder. Whether that leaves *any* spots with legit liberal feeders probably depends on how you define feeders. But hopefully this rough guess at the math based on conversations I've had with classmates, mentors/mentees, and faculty in the know is helpful. As with all advice, YMMV.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe I don’t understand how grades work at H, but as someone at a different school that feeders hire from now and again, it sounds like there are some pretty alarmist answers in here. Yeah obviously it helps to be the valedictorian if you want a feeder. But based on my conversations with the profs at my school who are the sort of clerkship gurus, there’s about one judge in the country who views it as disqualifying if your grades are not absolutely perfect and he’s up for AG.

I’ve made a few B’s, granted I’m still in the top 5%, but I’ve been repeatedly assured by profs that at least a few feeders and a good number of semi-feeders would at least consider hiring me. Research into alums who have clerked bear that out. So take that as you will; I know it’s a different school with a different grading system. There’s certainly some wisdom to not tying your self-worth in law school to the prospect of a SCOTUS clerkship because the chances are so slim for anyone, but to the extent that it keeps you going to have a dream, it sounds to me like you don’t need to pronounce that dream dead based on one meh grade.

Different anon. I don't know which school you attend, but "a few" Bs is usually disqualifying for SCOTUS. And although some semi-feeders are somewhat less nit-picky, it's not only Garland who demands perfect or essentially-perfect grades. The same goes for Srinivasan, Wilkinson, Katzmann, Fletcher, Sutton, Watford, Friedland, Tatel, and many others. This would be a different story if OP had 3-4 DS's to balance out the P. Without them, a feeder is probably not in the cards.

Does this mean 3-4 DS’es in the fall or by the end of the year?

[Anonymous User]

Former feeder and scotus clerk here. No, you're not out of the running. Based on my experience reviewing applications, its actually pretty rare to have all Hs after 1L--a P (or even two) is by no means disqualifying. There are a lot of kids with mostly Hs and one or two Ps, though, so you'll need to balance out your Ps with a few DSs in black letter classes. Its not unusual at all for HYS SCOTUS clerks (whether liberal or conservatives) to have a few Ps. Even the most grade-sensitive justices (CJR, EK) hire HYS kids with Ps.

[Anonymous User]

I managed to get a learned hand during 1L (5 DS's on the year) and was told pretty straightforwardly my the clerking person at career services that I had a good shot at feeder level judges. (I wasnt interested, so who knows). I know sears prize winner my year had 6 DS, so I think 8 is an extraordinary sears prize winner.

[Anonymous User]

A few Bs isn’t disqualifying at Chicago if you’re conservative—the unusually low curve means straight As = probably the literal valedictorian here, and I’m sure some classes have no straight A students—but that’s a few Bs over the course of law school, not 1L year.

Yes speaking solely for Chicago, the number of students in a given class who graduate with straight A’s ranges from 0-2. Every year we have probably 3-4 conservatives who clerk for feeders who only ended up with high honors, which probably translates to something between 1-4 B’s over the course of law school (note we take about 1.5 times as many total classes as schools on semester systems). It’s also not uncommon that we have a liberal feeder or semi-feeder clerk or 2 who also graduated somewhere in that range and just got lucky (although sometimes it’s with a FedSoc judge who hires counter clerks). Idk maybe we just have an insane curve but I personally know people who given their honors range almost certainly made a few B’s over the course of law school and ended up with Fletcher, Watford, Chhabria, Nathan, Kruger, etc. I guess not Garland or Katzmann but they don’t really hire from us period.

[Anonymous User]

Look, I think everyone is missing something. Almost no one except the crazy 8 DS guy is saying a single P is disqualifying. However, OP has 0 DS's which means it is extremely unlikely he is going to nab a feeder unless he gets a couple next semester. The issue isn't the single P, its the lack of DS's.

[Anonymous User]

A few Bs isn’t disqualifying at Chicago if you’re conservative—the unusually low curve means straight As = probably the literal valedictorian here, and I’m sure some classes have no straight A students—but that’s a few Bs over the course of law school, not 1L year.

Yes speaking solely for Chicago, the number of students in a given class who graduate with straight A’s ranges from 0-2. Every year we have probably 3-4 conservatives who clerk for feeders who only ended up with high honors, which probably translates to something between 1-4 B’s over the course of law school (note we take about 1.5 times as many total classes as schools on semester systems). It’s also not uncommon that we have a liberal feeder or semi-feeder clerk or 2 who also graduated somewhere in that range and just got lucky (although sometimes it’s with a FedSoc judge who hires counter clerks). Idk maybe we just have an insane curve but I personally know people who given their honors range almost certainly made a few B’s over the course of law school and ended up with Fletcher, Watford, Chhabria, Nathan, Kruger, etc. I guess not Garland or Katzmann but they don’t really hire from us period.

You can get highest honors without straight As and high honors with like 6+ Bs, one of the few upsides of theoretically having seven different kinds of A. I know of a couple of people with transcripts with like half 184s and half 177s, only slightly exaggerating, which gets you high honors and IME a 2/7/9/DC clerkship. And some people pull feeders without even high honors, rn I know of students clerking for CT and Thapar with just honors, though I know for the latter Mortara worked his magic.

[Anonymous User]

You are not out of the running. But it’s just as much racking up DSs as not getting Ps so it will be uphill—and it’s uphil for anyone. Just focus on doing better and trying to get a couple DSs to the extent that is an achievable goal. FWIW I interviewed with a semi feeder with 2 P 1L fall.

[Anonymous User]

The issue isn't the single P, its the lack of DS's.

This is the answer.

Here's my experience: 3DS, 1P, rest H after 2L. Somewhat limited by the pandemic, which could have added to any of those totals. Didn't get a single sniff from a feeder or semi-feeder. Was told by a prof with deep SCOTUS connections that I needed more DSes to improve my chances. Ended up with a non-feeder 2/9/DC COA.

Ultimately, you're not out of the running, but you need way more DSes, and getting those is extremely difficult. The fact that you didn't get any suggests either you were extremely unlucky or (much more likely) you need to figure out how to perform better on exams.

The surest route to a good clerkship is through professor connections. There are boatloads of kids with stellar grades, it's the professors hooking you up with the judge they know that gets you across the finish line.

[Anonymous User]

The issue isn't the single P, its the lack of DS's.

This is the answer.

Here's my experience: 3DS, 1P, rest H after 2L. Somewhat limited by the pandemic, which could have added to any of those totals. Didn't get a single sniff from a feeder or semi-feeder. Was told by a prof with deep SCOTUS connections that I needed more DSes to improve my chances. Ended up with a non-feeder 2/9/DC COA.

Ultimately, you're not out of the running, but you need way more DSes, and getting those is extremely difficult. The fact that you didn't get any suggests either you were extremely unlucky or (much more likely) you need to figure out how to perform better on exams.

The surest route to a good clerkship is through professor connections. There are boatloads of kids with stellar grades, it's the professors hooking you up with the judge they know that gets you across the finish line.

How many DSes are given out in each class at Harvard? Is a DS the rough equivalent of a true A on a normal system, or more like a CALI?

[Anonymous User]

The issue isn't the single P, its the lack of DS's.

This is the answer.

Here's my experience: 3DS, 1P, rest H after 2L. Somewhat limited by the pandemic, which could have added to any of those totals. Didn't get a single sniff from a feeder or semi-feeder. Was told by a prof with deep SCOTUS connections that I needed more DSes to improve my chances. Ended up with a non-feeder 2/9/DC COA.

Ultimately, you're not out of the running, but you need way more DSes, and getting those is extremely difficult. The fact that you didn't get any suggests either you were extremely unlucky or (much more likely) you need to figure out how to perform better on exams.

The surest route to a good clerkship is through professor connections. There are boatloads of kids with stellar grades, it's the professors hooking you up with the judge they know that gets you across the finish line.

How many DSes are given out in each class at Harvard? Is a DS the rough equivalent of a true A on a normal system, or more like a CALI?

Its like 7% of the class, so its somewhere in-between.

[Anonymous User]

The issue isn't the single P, its the lack of DS's.

This is the answer.

Here's my experience: 3DS, 1P, rest H after 2L. Somewhat limited by the pandemic, which could have added to any of those totals. Didn't get a single sniff from a feeder or semi-feeder. Was told by a prof with deep SCOTUS connections that I needed more DSes to improve my chances. Ended up with a non-feeder 2/9/DC COA.

Ultimately, you're not out of the running, but you need way more DSes, and getting those is extremely difficult. The fact that you didn't get any suggests either you were extremely unlucky or (much more likely) you need to figure out how to perform better on exams.

The surest route to a good clerkship is through professor connections. There are boatloads of kids with stellar grades, it's the professors hooking you up with the judge they know that gets you across the finish line.

How many DSes are given out in each class at Harvard? Is a DS the rough equivalent of a true A on a normal system, or more like a CALI?

Its like 7% of the class, so its somewhere in-between.

Just curious, is there an equivalent of a CALI at Harvard? I know at CLS (where I go), we have two types of award for the top student in a class. A "best in the class" award, and an A+, which is the best in the class if it is extra special (don't ask me why they do it this way lol).

[Anonymous User]

The issue isn't the single P, its the lack of DS's.

This is the answer.

Here's my experience: 3DS, 1P, rest H after 2L. Somewhat limited by the pandemic, which could have added to any of those totals. Didn't get a single sniff from a feeder or semi-feeder. Was told by a prof with deep SCOTUS connections that I needed more DSes to improve my chances. Ended up with a non-feeder 2/9/DC COA.

Ultimately, you're not out of the running, but you need way more DSes, and getting those is extremely difficult. The fact that you didn't get any suggests either you were extremely unlucky or (much more likely) you need to figure out how to perform better on exams.

The surest route to a good clerkship is through professor connections. There are boatloads of kids with stellar grades, it's the professors hooking you up with the judge they know that gets you across the finish line.

How many DSes are given out in each class at Harvard? Is a DS the rough equivalent of a true A on a normal system, or more like a CALI?

Its like 7% of the class, so its somewhere in-between.

Just curious, is there an equivalent of a CALI at Harvard? I know at CLS (where I go), we have two types of award for the top student in a class. A "best in the class" award, and an A+, which is the best in the class if it is extra special (don't ask me why they do it this way lol).

I don't think there is anything better than a DS in individual classes (there are, however, prizes for being 1st in the whole class etc.)

[Anonymous User]

Just curious, is there an equivalent of a CALI at Harvard? I know at CLS (where I go), we have two types of award for the top student in a class. A "best in the class" award, and an A+, which is the best in the class if it is extra special (don't ask me why they do it this way lol).

CLS 1L here. just curious, any chance you know how common it is for profs hand out an A+?

in one of my classes, both of my essays on the same final were chosen as model answers so I thought I might have a shot at one, but I imagine it just depends a lot on the prof

[Anonymous User]

Just curious, is there an equivalent of a CALI at Harvard? I know at CLS (where I go), we have two types of award for the top student in a class. A "best in the class" award, and an A+, which is the best in the class if it is extra special (don't ask me why they do it this way lol).

CLS 1L here. just curious, any chance you know how common it is for profs hand out an A+?

in one of my classes, both of my essays on the same final were chosen as model answers so I thought I might have a shot at one, but I imagine it just depends a lot on the prof

CLS 3L here. The grading document says that only one A+ can be given out per class and reserved only for extraordinary performance. It really does depend on the professor though and whether they want to give it out. Based on what my classmates said, basically every 1L professor I had gave out an A+.

[Anonymous User]

Just curious, is there an equivalent of a CALI at Harvard? I know at CLS (where I go), we have two types of award for the top student in a class. A "best in the class" award, and an A+, which is the best in the class if it is extra special (don't ask me why they do it this way lol).

CLS 1L here. just curious, any chance you know how common it is for profs hand out an A+?

in one of my classes, both of my essays on the same final were chosen as model answers so I thought I might have a shot at one, but I imagine it just depends a lot on the prof

CLS 3L here. The grading document says that only one A+ can be given out per class and reserved only for extraordinary performance. It really does depend on the professor though and whether they want to give it out. Based on what my classmates said, basically every 1L professor I had gave out an A+.

My guess is that Professors give out the A+ more often than the "Best In Class," but I do know people who have gotten "Best in Class" without an A+ before.

Also, shouldn't the anon who had both essays picked as model answers (great job BTW) already know what grade they got? LMK if I am missing something here.

[Anonymous User]

Just curious, is there an equivalent of a CALI at Harvard? I know at CLS (where I go), we have two types of award for the top student in a class. A "best in the class" award, and an A+, which is the best in the class if it is extra special (don't ask me why they do it this way lol).

CLS 1L here. just curious, any chance you know how common it is for profs hand out an A+?

in one of my classes, both of my essays on the same final were chosen as model answers so I thought I might have a shot at one, but I imagine it just depends a lot on the prof

CLS 3L here. The grading document says that only one A+ can be given out per class and reserved only for extraordinary performance. It really does depend on the professor though and whether they want to give it out. Based on what my classmates said, basically every 1L professor I had gave out an A+.

My guess is that Professors give out the A+ more often than the "Best In Class," but I do know people who have gotten "Best in Class" without an A+ before.

Also, shouldn't the anon who had both essays picked as model answers (great job BTW) already know what grade they got? LMK if I am missing something here.

that anon here - (thank you) and yes, I got an A but not the A+. thought that was implied, but yeah should’ve said I thought I “might have had” a shot rather than “might have.” I was just curious about it in general, not wondering whether this specific grade would be an A+.

and thanks both for the info!