Fall 2021 Post-Clerkship Hiring Forum

[Anonymous User]

I would not recommend clerking. Stay at your firm for a few years 3-5) and then clerk if you must, understanding that you may not be able to return to a big firm. Use that time to go do what you want to in life.

What a controversial but interesting take. Care to elaborate?

I have excellent grades, did well at both firms I worked at, have two good clerkships. Neither firm took me back when I tried to return (one is currently fucked by covid, previous one was pushing juniors into funds because their lit group wasn’t doing anything) and the hiring market has sucked each time I have done it. If I hadn’t clerked I’d still be making V10 money and be a very competitive applicant for the jobs I want. Instead I have a spotty resume, less money, and job insecurity. Woohoo!

This is my nightmare. V10's really aren't taking back clerks?!

Shocked me too. Honestly I’m getting pretty depressed because it’s now beginning to look like no one will work with me despite the fact that I got good reviews (glowing ones at the second place) and it’s hard to explain when I interview. If I hadn’t clerked (or stopped after the first, though I got the second clerkship during the first and before I knew I wasn’t going back to the V10) I’d be in a far better position

I'm the person who asked you to elaborate. I'm sorry to hear that OP. That sounds tough. The only word of comfort I'd be able to give is from other second-hand accounts and from my friends, who are involved in recruiting in BL this year, who all seem to say that clerkship hiring might rebound later this year. With OCI being postponed and all, hiring seems really wonky. I'm sure there will be a time and place for clerks eventually.

More generally, I've spoken to many practitioners at my firm that clerked leading up to '08 and '09 -- and you can imagine how screwed they were when they finished. All have said that, in the long term, their clerkship was certainly worth it--for the prestige and the benefits that its provided them during practice, even if the benefits were not felt nearly as soon as they had hoped. All this to say, even if it sucks right now OP, think of the long term. So few litigators can claim to have the credentials that you have, which are far above and beyond what most can claim. Don't let what is happening right now make you think you're screwed for eternity.

Thanks. Yeah, I have loved clerking. If I land a decent job (and things look better than I have said here, got two potential offers looking pretty good though not NYC big law) and have secure employment I’ll look back on this as an unfortunately stressful time that ultimately was worth it. I just don’t want people thinking they’ll clerk and then stroll into any office in NYC and get given a job because they may end up in my position. It’s just annoying because to me it seems like I did everything I could at every place I could but a couple hiring decisions and a poorly timed economic thing is really fucking me. But enough moping; I’m giving up social media for lent so hopefully I’ll be back with good news in a few months

Good luck - I'm really sorry to hear this. As the poster above said, you have great credentials and I believe the market will turn around. And grrr at your two past firms.

[Anonymous User]

Damn, I'm a CCN student about to begin clerking, should I be worried that I've screwed myself out of a job? Summered at a V5 firm.

You are very likely to be okay - especially next year when the market recovers more after covid. If you want extra security, just touch base with your V5 now and express that you're interested in coming back after clerking and that you'll be in touch once your judge allows. Just to stay top of mind, but you can of course go anywhere.

FWIW, not sure what V5 you're at, but CSM, S&C, and WLRK have been very good to their associates/former summers out clerking. No issues returning. (ETA: have also heard of people returning to Latham with no problem. Don't know anything about Skadden. Didn't remember what the current V5 is.)

There should be a list of big law firms that have done badly by their clerks, as a warning to future job-seekers. Not unlike the Reddit list highlighting firms that screwed their 2L summers during covid. Bad clerk firms that come to mind: Cleary, which told its former associates *while they were out clerking in 2020* that they couldn't come back. Also DPW, which was once beloved by litigators, especially for an USAO exit, has been pushing would-be litigators (including returning clerks) into corporate/bankruptcy if they still want their jobs. I heard of DPW doing this as early as 2017 before covid, because lit is slow there. If things have improved at these firms or if I've only heard of isolated examples, sorry for maligning - just sharing data points.

[Anonymous User]

Damn, I'm a CCN student about to begin clerking, should I be worried that I've screwed myself out of a job? Summered at a V5 firm.

Bad clerk firms that come to mind: Cleary, which told its former associates *while they were out clerking in 2020* that they couldn't come back. Also DPW, which was once beloved by litigators, especially for an USAO exit, has been pushing would-be litigators (including returning clerks) into corporate/bankruptcy if they still want their jobs. I heard of DPW doing this as early as 2017 before covid, because lit is slow there. If things have improved at these firms or if I've only heard of isolated examples, sorry for maligning - just sharing data points.

Yes, Cleary simply isn't hiring clerks to start in fall 2021. IDK whether they are in trouble, but there may be some truth to why they've decisively fallen out of the V10.

I heard the same about DPW. During the Great Recession, litigators were forced to do bankruptcy, which caused a lot of attrition.

[Anonymous User]

I’ve also heard nothing about any problems at Latham

[Anonymous User]

I'm seeing no biglaw movement whatsoever in Chicago—unclear if I'm being passed up despite having reasonably competitive credentials, the market really is that weak, or firms are indeed way behind (from what I hear, OCI is still eating up a lot of resources).

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know whether at Cravath/WLRK whether performance goes into whether to invite you back after a clerkship, or if it's automatic even if you have been only doing OK (and are in the first 1-2 years).

[Anonymous User]

Is this discussion applicable to us future clerks who accepted an offer for after the clerkship but aren't supposed to start back at a firm until 2022/2023? Accepted an offer in a smallish market with only a handful of BL firms and they're aware of my clerkship/want me to come back. If I've accepted the return offer, do I have anything to worry about?

[Anonymous User]

Is this discussion applicable to us future clerks who accepted an offer for after the clerkship but aren't supposed to start back at a firm until 2022/2023? Accepted an offer in a smallish market with only a handful of BL firms and they're aware of my clerkship/want me to come back. If I've accepted the return offer, do I have anything to worry about?

I would be surprised if you have problems, from what I understand and what this thread has indicated so far, a lot of the problem is unique to NYC biglaw, which has lots of slow lit groups. My knowledge of a smallish market (almost certainly not yours, but probably mildly representative) is that the few biglawish firms are expecting to be very, very busy with lit in 2021 because they do more trials as a proportion of their books and a lot of trials were continued. Plus if you’ve already accepted an offer that has to help.

[stoopkid13]

I agree with others who have said its too early to tell. OCI hiring was pushed out like 4-5 months from previous years. It's unrealistic to think post-clerkship hiring will look any more like previous years than OCI. And even in a typical year, I'm not sure February was a time to be worried. I'm also not really sure that hiring, as a whole, has fallen. Again, looking at OCI this year, I haven't seen any indication that OCI hiring has decreased, as opposed to just pushed back.

That said, I have wondered (and this is purely speculation) whether there is increasing tension between judges preferring experienced clerks, and firms preferring associates clerk straight out of law school. I think people often overlook the opportunity costs of clerking. Those costs only increase as you clerk further into your career (or double clerk). In terms of the experience you get/miss out on, there's a difference between clerking straight out of law school, and clerking 3 or 4 years out of law school. So for firms hiring clerks, there's a difference between recruiting a second year who's never taken a deposition, and a mid-level who's never taken a deposition.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know whether at Cravath/WLRK whether performance goes into whether to invite you back after a clerkship, or if it's automatic even if you have been only doing OK (and are in the first 1-2 years).

I know Cravath has told some they are not welcomed back, and told others they are, so i'm guessing performance had a lot to do with it.

[Anonymous User]

Current COA clerk just chiming in to corroborate the hiring bloodbath, though I'm not looking NYC. Even with solid connections and phone calls with former clerks of my judge at several big firms in large mid-major markets, I'm 0/3: 1 rejection on the papers, 1 silence (no screener), and 1 post-callback silence. Lots of rejections where I have fewer connections as well as lots of dead air. And my prior firm has been fucked by COVID, was pretty shitty to clerks last year, and isn't even hiring Lit laterals. So...all in all, things are rough out there, and I wish I'd just stayed put at my firm and left my judge in the lurch once it became clear that COVID was here to stay.

[Wild Card]

And even in a typical year, I'm not sure February was a time to be worried. I'm also not really sure that hiring, as a whole, has fallen. Again, looking at OCI this year, I haven't seen any indication that OCI hiring has decreased, as opposed to just pushed back.

Really? I'd been under the impression folks were securing jobs as early as November or December, and that was traditionally prime hiring season.

Granted, I also see posts by folks here claiming to land jobs as late as June or July -- which is a horrific thought to me.

[Wild Card]

That said, I have wondered (and this is purely speculation) whether there is increasing tension between judges preferring experienced clerks, and firms preferring associates clerk straight out of law school.

What about those who clerk straight out of law school, or after only a few months or a year of practice? If I were a firm strapped for cash, I'd wonder whether I'd want to pay premium for a candidate with only a clerkship and little to no practice experience. I'm beginning to think these biglaw firms can't afford to hand out $50,000 left and right anymore.

[Anonymous User]

Trying to get a sense of how other clerks have fared in the elite boutique realm. I'm lucky to have received final interviews with 2-3 firms but I've been waiting for weeks to find out about offers. Time to assume it's a ding?

[nixy]

And even in a typical year, I'm not sure February was a time to be worried. I'm also not really sure that hiring, as a whole, has fallen. Again, looking at OCI this year, I haven't seen any indication that OCI hiring has decreased, as opposed to just pushed back.

Really? I'd been under the impression folks were securing jobs as early as November or December, and that was traditionally prime hiring season.

Granted, I also see posts by folks here claiming to land jobs as late as June or July -- which is a horrific thought to me.

Traditionally (and certainly when I was going through this a bit ago), prime season was applying in February, getting hired February/March. It was never as early as November/December, though I’m sure some people (probably the more gilded candidates) lucked out and got jobs then. But most people who applied that early got told to wait till later. I do think there had been a little bit of consistent drift earlier into January, but November and December have never been the traditional prime hiring season.

And every year there have been quite a lot of people who don’t get hired until June/July. I’m sure it’s not fun waiting till then, but people shouldn’t think they’re out of the running at this time of the year.

I think in part the takeaway is that clerking doesn’t transform you as a candidate. It’s necessary for employers that require a clerkship, of course, but it doesn’t necessarily make you competitive for jobs that you weren’t previously competitive for (in the absence of, say, a really connected judge going to bat hard for you). The upside is that the majority of federal clerks were already competitive for lots of biglaw jobs, so will mostly come out okay, but it’s not quite the golden ticket it’s often portrayed to be.

(I also get that this year is unusual. I agree that OCI is very likely to push things later, and that covid will make firms more cautious.)

[Anonymous User]

What about those who clerk straight out of law school, or after only a few months or a year of practice? If I were a firm strapped for cash, I'd wonder whether I'd want to pay premium for a candidate with only a clerkship and little to no practice experience. I'm beginning to think these biglaw firms can't afford to hand out $50,000 left and right anymore.

I think there is some truth to this, but anecdotally I'm a K-JD, double-clerk (and not particularly well-known d ct or coa judges), and I landed a job for this fall with a well-respected firm with a market-rate bonus.

[Anonymous User]

Is this discussion applicable to us future clerks who accepted an offer for after the clerkship but aren't supposed to start back at a firm until 2022/2023? Accepted an offer in a smallish market with only a handful of BL firms and they're aware of my clerkship/want me to come back. If I've accepted the return offer, do I have anything to worry about?

I would be surprised if you have problems, from what I understand and what this thread has indicated so far, a lot of the problem is unique to NYC biglaw, which has lots of slow lit groups. My knowledge of a smallish market (almost certainly not yours, but probably mildly representative) is that the few biglawish firms are expecting to be very, very busy with lit in 2021 because they do more trials as a proportion of their books and a lot of trials were continued. Plus if you’ve already accepted an offer that has to help.

Good to hear. I imagine that things ought to change in 2 years—hopefully for the better.

[Anonymous User]

That is a major yikes that Cravath has been turning some clerks away...do we know what years?

[stoopkid13]

That said, I have wondered (and this is purely speculation) whether there is increasing tension between judges preferring experienced clerks, and firms preferring associates clerk straight out of law school.

What about those who clerk straight out of law school, or after only a few months or a year of practice? If I were a firm strapped for cash, I'd wonder whether I'd want to pay premium for a candidate with only a clerkship and little to no practice experience. I'm beginning to think these biglaw firms can't afford to hand out $50,000 left and right anymore.

Maybe, but if you are a firm strapped for cash I don't know that you'd pay 50k for a mid-level hire either, especially when that mid-level has the same clerkship experience as a junior you can pay a lower salary. As hard as recruiting may be for someone clerking straight out of law school, I still think recruiting will be even harder for clerks looking to join as mid-levels. Generally, people seem to underestimate how disruptive clerking after your second year of practice can be, at least in terms of your development as an associate.

On the timing question, my experience was similar to Nixy's.

[Anonymous User]

Trying to get a sense of how other clerks have fared in the elite boutique realm. I'm lucky to have received final interviews with 2-3 firms but I've been waiting for weeks to find out about offers. Time to assume it's a ding?

I wouldn't assume yet. Heard that these places do rolling offers, based on prior years. Lots of different factors play into timing (e.g. when hiring folks can meet, those who applied earlier are still contemplating offers).

[Anonymous User]

When people here talk about their firms not taking them back, y'all mean you left the firm after working full time right? In that case, it's standard not to have a return offer from the firm before you start clerking? Whereas I am a 3L who summered at one of the firm discussed in this thread, will be clerking right after graduation, and have a standing offer to come back after the clerkship (as I think is standard for clerking before starting full time). I understand there's always some chance the firm reneges, but am I basically safe barring even more extraordinary circumstances than what we're living through?

[Anonymous User]

When people here talk about their firms not taking them back, y'all mean you left the firm after working full time right? In that case, it's standard not to have a return offer from the firm before you start clerking? Whereas I am a 3L who summered at one of the firm discussed in this thread, will be clerking right after graduation, and have a standing offer to come back after the clerkship (as I think is standard for clerking before starting full time). I understand there's always some chance the firm reneges, but am I basically safe barring even more extraordinary circumstances than what we're living through?

I think people are talking about both circumstances - how good firms are to clerks trying to come back after summers or after full-time stints. I'd say you're more than likely safe, barring anything truly unusual, like a lit practice going down.

Despite the bad apple firms, the norm is that clerks have no problem going back to firms they once worked at. (Qualified by these reports that firms might not take someone back who's had performance issues. But those firms probably would start encouraging those exits anyway, even if the associate didn't leave to clerk.)

[Anonymous User]

That is a major yikes that Cravath has been turning some clerks away...do we know what years?

OP above that mentioned this. Not positive but had spent time at the firm first. I think between 1-3 years.

[Wild Card]

That said, I have wondered (and this is purely speculation) whether there is increasing tension between judges preferring experienced clerks, and firms preferring associates clerk straight out of law school.

What about those who clerk straight out of law school, or after only a few months or a year of practice? If I were a firm strapped for cash, I'd wonder whether I'd want to pay premium for a candidate with only a clerkship and little to no practice experience. I'm beginning to think these biglaw firms can't afford to hand out $50,000 left and right anymore.

Maybe, but if you are a firm strapped for cash I don't know that you'd pay 50k for a mid-level hire either, especially when that mid-level has the same clerkship experience as a junior you can pay a lower salary. As hard as recruiting may be for someone clerking straight out of law school, I still think recruiting will be even harder for clerks looking to join as mid-levels. Generally, people seem to underestimate how disruptive clerking after your second year of practice can be, at least in terms of your development as an associate.

On the timing question, my experience was similar to Nixy's.

What some V50 firms do, to my knowledge, is give a midlevel lateral two years of credit only, regardless of how much practice and clerkship experience he or she had beforehand.

So a midlevel lateral with many, many years of experience would receive a clerkship bonus, but would start as a third year and be paid a third year's salary -- of course, the midlevel would be expected to do senior-level work and be held to the standards of a senior ....

What I mean is that firms can milk and bleed a midlevel lateral in a way they could not junior laterals.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone applied to or heard from Wheeler Trigg in Denver? I'm wondering if regional firms would be better targets rather than generic lit biglaw.