HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

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The Lsat Airbender

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:10 pm

aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:24 am
Some posters, e.g. lavar, appear to be suggesting something much broader and more established than what you are. And that is just false, given my experience, which is enough to defeat the unbounded, universal claims that have been presented. I am really not saying anything more than FedSoc probably provides a boost in limited cases at schools where Fedsoc orgs have connections to particular chambers. But that is not saying much given that other orgs may have ins with particular judges as well. However, what was being presented was some sort of organized effort (or at least one indistinguishably effective across schools) that consistently benefits FedSoc people. I would love to know, for example, how many NYU or Columbia FedSoc (rising) 2Ls have clerkships compared to, say, their Chicago or UVA counterparts. If the difference is significant despite comparable interest, it seems disingenuous to say that FedSoc itself is creating the advantage, assuming you reasonably compare FedSoc applicants at each school to non-FedSoc applicants.

First of all, the bolded above is tripe if you won't say (in broad terms at least) what actual experience you have with clerkship hiring.

And, like, Fed Soc is most certainly an "organized effort" to get more like-minded people into clerkships(/professorships/the bench), and they most certainly succeed in that mission to a measurable extent, even at NYU or Berkeley or whatever. Per the organization's own statement of purpose:
[...]
In working to achieve these goals, the Society has created a conservative and libertarian intellectual network that extends to all levels of the legal community.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:27 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:10 pm
First of all, the bolded above is tripe if you won't say (in broad terms at least) what actual experience you have with clerkship hiring.
Going through the hiring process as a FedSoc member and talking to FedSoc clerks about hiring for FedSoc judges. We had essentially no support beyond notices from judges that they were hiring. Our chapter was not even aware of who was hiring unless the judge sent us letters. Only 2-3 judges did reach out. This is at a T6.

And, like, Fed Soc is most certainly an "organized effort" to get more like-minded people into clerkships(/professorships/the bench), and they most certainly succeed in that mission to a measurable extent, even at NYU or Berkeley or whatever. Per the organization's own statement of purpose:
[...]
In working to achieve these goals, the Society has created a conservative and libertarian intellectual network that extends to all levels of the legal community.
You are conflating an organization's mission statement with whether it successfully accomplishes that mission statement. You yourself claimed that FedSoc people from flyover states at median at T6 schools have no problem getting clerkships. I want you to substantiate that claim.

The question here is to what extent a FedSoc "network" exists that functions outside of individual chapters. Saying that Berkeley's FedSoc chapter is successful at placing Berkeley FedSoc applicants at particular chambers with connections to Berkeley's FedSoc chapter is virtually meaningless, since any tightly knit student org with strong connections to particular chambers will have an advantage in that process.

I am disputing the narrative that somehow there is a FedSoc network that means FedSoc applicants from any school have a functional boost in a significant number of chambers regardless of personal or professorial connections. No one has offered a shred of evidence that that is the case systemically.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:27 pm

aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:27 pm
I am disputing the narrative that somehow there is a FedSoc network that means FedSoc applicants from any school have a functional boost in a significant number of chambers regardless of personal or professorial connections. No one has offered a shred of evidence that that is the case systemically.
Systematic != universal. By way of comparison, left-handedness confers a massive, systematic advantage for becoming a major-league pitcher, even though that advantage doesn't really accrue to lefty women for extraneous reasons. You're certainly right that these benefits are uneven. Perversely, the feeding frenzy for YLS/HLS/Chicago conservatives probably squeezes out some of the comparative advantage for their counterparts at Columbia and NYU. But it's still an edge. Even getting one early interview is significant.

I would point out that this thread is notionally about moderate students at Harvard. If I were advising a moderate HLS 1L about the clerkship hunt I would strongly recommend (among other things) that they take a look at the Federalist Society. Because it confers a substantial, unearned advantage in the hiring process.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:34 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:27 pm
Systematic != universal. By way of comparison, left-handedness confers a massive, systematic advantage for becoming a major-league pitcher, even though that advantage doesn't really accrue to lefty women for extraneous reasons. You're certainly right that these benefits are uneven. Perversely, the feeding frenzy for YLS/HLS/Chicago conservatives probably squeezes out some of the comparative advantage for their counterparts at Columbia and NYU. But it's still an edge. Even getting one early interview is significant.
You are completely missing the point, which is that the FedSoc bonus is chapter-dependent, which means it is not actually a FedSoc bonus. You seem to acknowledge that there is not actually a generalized FedSoc "network" that actually confers advantages upon applicants.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:53 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:27 pm
aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:27 pm
I am disputing the narrative that somehow there is a FedSoc network that means FedSoc applicants from any school have a functional boost in a significant number of chambers regardless of personal or professorial connections. No one has offered a shred of evidence that that is the case systemically.
Systematic != universal. By way of comparison, left-handedness confers a massive, systematic advantage for becoming a major-league pitcher, even though that advantage doesn't really accrue to lefty women for extraneous reasons. You're certainly right that these benefits are uneven. Perversely, the feeding frenzy for YLS/HLS/Chicago conservatives probably squeezes out some of the comparative advantage for their counterparts at Columbia and NYU. But it's still an edge. Even getting one early interview is significant.

I would point out that this thread is notionally about moderate students at Harvard. If I were advising a moderate HLS 1L about the clerkship hunt I would strongly recommend (among other things) that they take a look at the Federalist Society. Because it confers a substantial, unearned advantage in the hiring process.
I can tell you that’s a terrible idea. Part of the fed soc boost comes from having upperclassmen vouch for you to alumni(clerks and former clerks) and other connections to judges.

If you only join for the clerkships and aren’t on board with the judicial philosophy, it will be obvious to other members. At best, members will just ignore requests for help on applications. At worst, they will inform other members of your transactional approach to fed soc.

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The Lsat Airbender

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:42 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:53 pm
I can tell you that’s a terrible idea. Part of the fed soc boost comes from having upperclassmen vouch for you to alumni(clerks and former clerks) and other connections to judges.

If you only join for the clerkships and aren’t on board with the judicial philosophy, it will be obvious to other members. At best, members will just ignore requests for help on applications. At worst, they will inform other members of your transactional approach to fed soc.
Agree with this, whence "take a look." Plenty of political moderates can get behind the FedSoc program, at least for a few years. Obviously it's not worth faking.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by lavarman84 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:05 am
None of that addresses what I said; in fact, I directly addressed most of this paragraph.
No, you didn't. I talked about genuine interest after you ranted about how it doesn't exist based on your experiences and what you hear from students at your law school. And to boot, you didn't even answer if you've clerked yet (and I now see from the totality of your responses that the answer is no). I don't see the point in arguing with another 1L who hasn't yet seen how the sausage is made. Have a good night, Aegor.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:42 pm

lavarman84 wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:52 pm
No, you didn't. I talked about genuine interest after you ranted about how it doesn't exist based on your experiences and what you hear from students at your law school.
You did not actually post about genuine interest. You posted about willingness, and your post was either based on non-indicative factors -- such as mere number of applications -- and your own assessment of yourself. Read your post if you do not believe me. None of that is more persuasive than any other anecdotal experience.

And to boot, you didn't even answer if you've clerked yet (and I now see from the totality of your responses that the answer is no).
Actually, I did.

I don't see the point in arguing with another 1L who hasn't yet seen how the sausage is made. Have a good night, Aegor.
But see, I have. And you continue to spout unsubstantiated crap. Given the strength of your claims, it should be absolutely easy to put me (and other unnamed posters) in our place by simply substantiating your assertions that FedSoc provides a meaningful boost to a generic FedSoc student at a generic law school to generic FedSoc chambers. But you cannot, because the version of reality you have crafted conflicts with reality itself.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by nixy » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:50 pm

aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:34 pm
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:27 pm
Systematic != universal. By way of comparison, left-handedness confers a massive, systematic advantage for becoming a major-league pitcher, even though that advantage doesn't really accrue to lefty women for extraneous reasons. You're certainly right that these benefits are uneven. Perversely, the feeding frenzy for YLS/HLS/Chicago conservatives probably squeezes out some of the comparative advantage for their counterparts at Columbia and NYU. But it's still an edge. Even getting one early interview is significant.
You are completely missing the point, which is that the FedSoc bonus is chapter-dependent, which means it is not actually a FedSoc bonus. You seem to acknowledge that there is not actually a generalized FedSoc "network" that actually confers advantages upon applicants.
The bolded isn't really true. I know there were a couple early dramatic claims about all FedSoc students everywhere getting clerkships!!! and I think those were overstated (and people have moved away from them). But you have had one person who's gone through the process of hiring clerks say that their judge expressly gave a boost for FedSoc. Just because not all FedSoc students from all schools get clerkships doesn't mean that as a whole, the FedSoc network isn't strong and doesn't confer a boost with certain judges. Your T6 may not be as hooked into the network, for whatever reason (maybe lack of alumni representation in the FedSoc judiciary? given NYU's public interest focus, for instance, I would imagine there aren't as many NYU FedSoc judges as, say, Chicago FedSoc judges? or maybe the crappy support for clerkships that appears to have plagued Columbia for quite a while?). That doesn't mean the network isn't real.

(Also... I'm really confused because you talk about going through the *application* process and not getting reached out to etc. That's not the same as being in chambers *and reviewing other people's applications for a judge*.)

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:59 pm

nixy wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:50 pm
The bolded isn't really true. I know there were a couple early dramatic claims about all FedSoc students everywhere getting clerkships!!! and I think those were overstated (and people have moved away from them).
Great. We agree, then.
But you have had one person who's gone through the process of hiring clerks say that their judge expressly gave a boost for FedSoc. Just because not all FedSoc students from all schools get clerkships doesn't mean that as a whole, the FedSoc network isn't strong and doesn't confer a boost with certain judges.
Just because one FedSoc judge gives a boost to FedSoc applicants does not meant that the FedSoc network is strong either and confers a boost with a generic judge, or even a limited number of judges. I just want people to actually substantiate their claims regarding so-called FedSoc networks or progressive favoritism or whatever. As you acknowledge, people have been pretty flippant with those claims.

(Also... I'm really confused because you talk about going through the *application* process and not getting reached out to etc. That's not the same as being in chambers *and reviewing other people's applications for a judge*.)
Well, I know people in chambers, so that is the basis for my information.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by beepboopbeep » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:09 am

aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:59 pm
Just because one FedSoc judge gives a boost to FedSoc applicants does not meant that the FedSoc network is strong either and confers a boost with a generic judge, or even a limited number of judges. I just want people to actually substantiate their claims regarding so-called FedSoc networks or progressive favoritism or whatever. As you acknowledge, people have been pretty flippant with those claims.
The response I left up on the last page I think had a different point than you took from it. Query whether any individual poster on here has a good vantage point on the national fedsoc network or the hiring practices of judges nationwide. At most, some of us have clerked for a judge or two or three, and went to one or maybe two schools. If you are genuinely wondering whether fedsoc confers an edge in clerkship hiring, rather than just trying to argue for its own sake, ask your professors or clerkship office what they've seen over time. At my school, the answer from several professors who were repeat players in the clerkship process was "yes, and it's a big advantage." Not an infallible one, but nevertheless real and measurable in quantity and quality. I'm all for questioning received wisdom, but you're just never going to get the level of direct evidence of a widespread cross-school network or benefit that you're asking for out of this forum, and there's no good reason to conclude that that signifies the received wisdom is false when all each of us can share is our individual experiences.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:59 am

beepboopbeep wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:09 am
aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:59 pm
Just because one FedSoc judge gives a boost to FedSoc applicants does not meant that the FedSoc network is strong either and confers a boost with a generic judge, or even a limited number of judges. I just want people to actually substantiate their claims regarding so-called FedSoc networks or progressive favoritism or whatever. As you acknowledge, people have been pretty flippant with those claims.
The response I left up on the last page I think had a different point than you took from it. Query whether any individual poster on here has a good vantage point on the national fedsoc network or the hiring practices of judges nationwide. At most, some of us have clerked for a judge or two or three, and went to one or maybe two schools. If you are genuinely wondering whether fedsoc confers an edge in clerkship hiring, rather than just trying to argue for its own sake, ask your professors or clerkship office what they've seen over time. At my school, the answer from several professors who were repeat players in the clerkship process was "yes, and it's a big advantage." Not an infallible one, but nevertheless real and measurable in quantity and quality. I'm all for questioning received wisdom, but you're just never going to get the level of direct evidence of a widespread cross-school network or benefit that you're asking for out of this forum, and there's no good reason to conclude that that signifies the received wisdom is false when all each of us can share is our individual experiences.
It sounds like this dude is sour grapes because he went to CLS and wasn't able to get a clerkship with Stone-but-not-Kent grades despite his commitment to the cause. I sympathize; it probably sucks to hear others assume "wow it must have been SO EASY for you."

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by Joachim2017 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:36 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:59 am
beepboopbeep wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:09 am
aegor wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:59 pm
Just because one FedSoc judge gives a boost to FedSoc applicants does not meant that the FedSoc network is strong either and confers a boost with a generic judge, or even a limited number of judges. I just want people to actually substantiate their claims regarding so-called FedSoc networks or progressive favoritism or whatever. As you acknowledge, people have been pretty flippant with those claims.
The response I left up on the last page I think had a different point than you took from it. Query whether any individual poster on here has a good vantage point on the national fedsoc network or the hiring practices of judges nationwide. At most, some of us have clerked for a judge or two or three, and went to one or maybe two schools. If you are genuinely wondering whether fedsoc confers an edge in clerkship hiring, rather than just trying to argue for its own sake, ask your professors or clerkship office what they've seen over time. At my school, the answer from several professors who were repeat players in the clerkship process was "yes, and it's a big advantage." Not an infallible one, but nevertheless real and measurable in quantity and quality. I'm all for questioning received wisdom, but you're just never going to get the level of direct evidence of a widespread cross-school network or benefit that you're asking for out of this forum, and there's no good reason to conclude that that signifies the received wisdom is false when all each of us can share is our individual experiences.
It sounds like this dude is sour grapes because he went to CLS and wasn't able to get a clerkship with Stone-but-not-Kent grades despite his commitment to the cause. I sympathize; it probably sucks to hear others assume "wow it must have been SO EASY for you."




I stopped following the FedSoc stuff a while ago in this thread, but the bolded is what I agree with and hope that we can all do. Regardless of your views about affirmative action or systemic justice or whatever, it shouldn't be hard to ask that you recognize there are always winners and losers, and just because a person belongs to a race/gender that was or is systemically advantaged, that doesn't mean individuals aren't legitimate in their feelings that they are being treated detrimentally because a "boost" is given to other individuals.

That feeling, not just of disappointment but that one has been treated unjustly based on their skin/gender/immutable characteristics, is a legitimate feeling for any young 20-something year-old person, full of ambition but also anxiety and hope and expectations for their lives and careers, to have. I just can't get behind the "people of YOUR type have been advantaged for centuries, so now it's time for you to shut up and accept that other people will be given a boost [which will necessarily be to your detriment] and you won't, based on things neither of you has any control over or responsibility for" mode of thinking. Racism and reverse racism, and affirmative action and its absence, both make sweeping generalizations that leave people feeling like they, as individuals, have been treated unjustly in its wake. There shouldn't be some upper bound to our capacity for empathy for everyone in this capitalist system.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by Necho2 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm

Yeah without getting deeply involved in this thread, the main takeaway from the Fed Soc network (at a school w a strong one) that I've seen is (1) Fed Soc folks with great grades get feeder-level clerkships pretty much without any exception, which isn't quite so guaranteed on the other end of the spectrum, and (2) the above-median (but not that far above) folks snag COAs at much higher rates than any other group of students similarly situated.

I understand the self-selection and ideological sorting argument but I'm not quite sure how far it goes- these are seriously competitive gigs without exception and I know plenty of non-Fed Soc folks who apply aggressively across the country, so someone's certainly being negatively affected by this preference, and if the judges consciously selecting people because of a preference for similar views, it's really hard for me to see that is being all that different from having a conscious preference for diversity, etc. or any of the other million things that judges idiosyncratically care about bc this is a close-quarters experience they're hiring for. If you think it's somehow pure and special in a way that other preferences (non-privileged background, certain schools, work experience, etc.) aren't I can see why you disagree, but it's hard to look at what is maybe the single strongest resume boost in the game and get worked up about one teaching fellow not writing a LOR and saying something ill-considered to someone they shouldn't have.

Fed Soc dude w/ no 1L clerkship- if you have good grades and apply consistently to open positions, I am quite positive you'll get something. I agree that the whole above median fed soc=1L clerkship was overstated and I understand your frustration, but we're not making this stuff up, I promise.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by nixy » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:22 pm

Joachim2017 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:36 pm
I stopped following the FedSoc stuff a while ago in this thread, but the bolded is what I agree with and hope that we can all do. Regardless of your views about affirmative action or systemic justice or whatever, it shouldn't be hard to ask that you recognize there are always winners and losers, and just because a person belongs to a race/gender that was or is systemically advantaged, that doesn't mean individuals aren't legitimate in their feelings that they are being treated detrimentally because a "boost" is given to other individuals.

That feeling, not just of disappointment but that one has been treated unjustly based on their skin/gender/immutable characteristics, is a legitimate feeling for any young 20-something year-old person, full of ambition but also anxiety and hope and expectations for their lives and careers, to have. I just can't get behind the "people of YOUR type have been advantaged for centuries, so now it's time for you to shut up and accept that other people will be given a boost [which will necessarily be to your detriment] and you won't, based on things neither of you has any control over or responsibility for" mode of thinking. Racism and reverse racism, and affirmative action and its absence, both make sweeping generalizations that leave people feeling like they, as individuals, have been treated unjustly in its wake. There shouldn't be some upper bound to our capacity for empathy for everyone in this capitalist system.
Don't agree with any of this. I'm not arguing b/c I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just wanted to register my disagreement so others know that no, not everyone feels like this.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by lavarman84 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:16 pm

nixy wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:22 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:36 pm
I stopped following the FedSoc stuff a while ago in this thread, but the bolded is what I agree with and hope that we can all do. Regardless of your views about affirmative action or systemic justice or whatever, it shouldn't be hard to ask that you recognize there are always winners and losers, and just because a person belongs to a race/gender that was or is systemically advantaged, that doesn't mean individuals aren't legitimate in their feelings that they are being treated detrimentally because a "boost" is given to other individuals.

That feeling, not just of disappointment but that one has been treated unjustly based on their skin/gender/immutable characteristics, is a legitimate feeling for any young 20-something year-old person, full of ambition but also anxiety and hope and expectations for their lives and careers, to have. I just can't get behind the "people of YOUR type have been advantaged for centuries, so now it's time for you to shut up and accept that other people will be given a boost [which will necessarily be to your detriment] and you won't, based on things neither of you has any control over or responsibility for" mode of thinking. Racism and reverse racism, and affirmative action and its absence, both make sweeping generalizations that leave people feeling like they, as individuals, have been treated unjustly in its wake. There shouldn't be some upper bound to our capacity for empathy for everyone in this capitalist system.
Don't agree with any of this. I'm not arguing b/c I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just wanted to register my disagreement so others know that no, not everyone feels like this.
Seconded.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by Joachim2017 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:55 pm

nixy wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:22 pm
Joachim2017 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:36 pm
I stopped following the FedSoc stuff a while ago in this thread, but the bolded is what I agree with and hope that we can all do. Regardless of your views about affirmative action or systemic justice or whatever, it shouldn't be hard to ask that you recognize there are always winners and losers, and just because a person belongs to a race/gender that was or is systemically advantaged, that doesn't mean individuals aren't legitimate in their feelings that they are being treated detrimentally because a "boost" is given to other individuals.

That feeling, not just of disappointment but that one has been treated unjustly based on their skin/gender/immutable characteristics, is a legitimate feeling for any young 20-something year-old person, full of ambition but also anxiety and hope and expectations for their lives and careers, to have. I just can't get behind the "people of YOUR type have been advantaged for centuries, so now it's time for you to shut up and accept that other people will be given a boost [which will necessarily be to your detriment] and you won't, based on things neither of you has any control over or responsibility for" mode of thinking. Racism and reverse racism, and affirmative action and its absence, both make sweeping generalizations that leave people feeling like they, as individuals, have been treated unjustly in its wake. There shouldn't be some upper bound to our capacity for empathy for everyone in this capitalist system.
Don't agree with any of this. I'm not arguing b/c I know I'm not going to change your mind, I just wanted to register my disagreement so others know that no, not everyone feels like this.

I never said everyone feels like this. I think it betrays a fundamental lack of compassion (and it will make your own policy preferences that much harder to implement in the real world), but hey, you get up on that moral high ground and you do you.

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nixy

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by nixy » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:07 pm

And I never said that you said everyone felt like this. I didn't want the post go unremarked so that others here who read it wouldn't assume that everyone agreed with it.

Compassion and moral ground are in the eye of the beholder.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:32 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:09 am
Query whether any individual poster on here has a good vantage point on the national fedsoc network or the hiring practices of judges nationwide. At most, some of us have clerked for a judge or two or three, and went to one or maybe two schools.
All I was really asking for was that people confine their claims to their own actual knowledge. It took until this post for anyone to mention sources with actually broad knowledge (e.g. professors, although the fact they are plugged in creates a distinction between professor support at different schools).

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:59 am
It sounds like this dude is sour grapes because he went to CLS and wasn't able to get a clerkship with Stone-but-not-Kent grades despite his commitment to the cause. I sympathize; it probably sucks to hear others assume "wow it must have been SO EASY for you."
I already have a COA clerkship and would have no idea what it is like having to apply with merely above-average grades at CLS or my school. That being said, if you are implicitly acknowledging that Fed Soc people at CLS with above-median-but-not-top grades are not walking into clerkships, I think you have made my point for me, especially sincere you have specifically alleged that in this thread.

Necho2 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
Fed Soc dude w/ no 1L clerkship- if you have good grades and apply consistently to open positions, I am quite positive you'll get something. I agree that the whole above median fed soc=1L clerkship was overstated and I understand your frustration, but we're not making this stuff up, I promise.
As I have said several times, I have a clerkship already.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by lavarman84 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:32 pm

This dumpster fire of a thread certainly has been interesting. I can't say I expected to see some 1Ls appear to ardently contest what is conventional wisdom on this board and try to assert superior knowledge than people who have actually clerked. It made for an entertaining thread. :lol:

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:40 pm

aegor wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 5:32 pm
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:59 am
It sounds like this dude is sour grapes because he went to CLS and wasn't able to get a clerkship with Stone-but-not-Kent grades despite his commitment to the cause. I sympathize; it probably sucks to hear others assume "wow it must have been SO EASY for you."
I already have a COA clerkship and would have no idea what it is like having to apply with merely above-average grades at CLS or my school. That being said, if you are implicitly acknowledging that Fed Soc people at CLS with above-median-but-not-top grades are not walking into clerkships, I think you have made my point for me, especially sincere you have specifically alleged that in this thread.
O.K., so you have a slightly different chip on your shoulder; you don't like the implication that you "walked into" your future role. I understand how the strongest versions of that argument might offend you. It's perfectly conceivable that you would have done just as well without "the FedSoc boost," and people who insist otherwise are, for the most part, just being salty. But I'm pretty sure nobody is actually making those strong arguments in this thread.

There's a lot of daylight between "first-come, first-served bonanza, even with mediocre grades" and "for any given school/grades profile, people who tick the FedSoc box are more likely to find something, and that something will tend to be more prestigious, than people who don't." Your disagreement with the latter statement only seems to be a matter of degree; i.e., not responsive to the underlying point that ideological preference, of a comparable degree to diversity preference and other sorts of "affirmative action," exists. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding you.

I don't get why you find the notion that FedSoc affiliation helps people get clerkships is so outrageous. Again, placing people into such positions is the whole premise of the organization.

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:43 pm

Necho2 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
Fed Soc dude w/ no 1L clerkship- if you have good grades and apply consistently to open positions, I am quite positive you'll get something. I agree that the whole above median fed soc=1L clerkship was overstated and I understand your frustration, but we're not making this stuff up, I promise.
As I have said several times, I have a clerkship already.
[/quote]

Good for you but I don't think I'm talking about you?

jackshunger wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:47 pm
As a FedSoc student with top grades without a clerkship, being a member is not infallible. Nor is this rubbish comment earlier that "every T6 FedSoc student above-median gets a clerkship 1L," true. Most FedSoc members get clerkships on the same timeline as everyone else, just applying to different judges.
This prompted my comment.

aegor

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:16 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:40 pm
O.K., so you have a slightly different chip on your shoulder; you don't like the implication that you "walked into" your future role.
What? I did "walk into" my future role because of my connections. I readily acknowledge that. I got my clerkship because of my personal connections through my local FedSoc chapter (although you still have to be top 5%).

There's a lot of daylight between "first-come, first-served bonanza, even with mediocre grades" and "for any given school/grades profile, people who tick the FedSoc box are more likely to find something, and that something will tend to be more prestigious, than people who don't." Your disagreement with the latter statement only seems to be a matter of degree; i.e., not responsive to the underlying point that ideological preference, of a comparable degree to diversity preference and other sorts of "affirmative action," exists. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding you.
The language in this thread has come much closer, if not reached altogether, the first. That is all I am saying. Plus the fact that the actual boost from FedSoc is more specifically in most cases a boost from the local FedSoc rather than just FedSoc itself. But I would say that affirmative action and preferring FedSoc people are not at all comparable in purpose, even if the outcome is functionally identical. Both are "unearned advantages," but the FedSoc boost is not affirmative action (not saying you are equating the two).

My anecdotal experience is also that median people, or even slightly-above-median people, are not getting much traction at the appellate level, although I would welcome data that disagree.

jackshunger

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by jackshunger » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:43 pm
Necho2 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:51 pm
Fed Soc dude w/ no 1L clerkship- if you have good grades and apply consistently to open positions, I am quite positive you'll get something. I agree that the whole above median fed soc=1L clerkship was overstated and I understand your frustration, but we're not making this stuff up, I promise.
As I have said several times, I have a clerkship already.
Good for you but I don't think I'm talking about you?

jackshunger wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:47 pm
As a FedSoc student with top grades without a clerkship, being a member is not infallible. Nor is this rubbish comment earlier that "every T6 FedSoc student above-median gets a clerkship 1L," true. Most FedSoc members get clerkships on the same timeline as everyone else, just applying to different judges.
This prompted my comment.
[/quote]

Not sure why the previous post is anonymous, but no worries - I'm not concerned about obtaining a clerkship at some point. As someone who went through the process, all I was pointing out is that the stronger statements made in this dumpster fire thread were wholly inaccurate and betrayed an ignorance of how FedSoc chapters at schools interact with chambers and the qualifications required to get a CoA clerkship 1L.

I stopped responding after my final post before because there is not much point. If you sincerely believe the statements in this thread made by other posters, you certainly aren't in FedSoc and nothing said would affect you anyway. Anyone in a FedSoc chapter would know better than to listen to this trife over questioning an officer.
Last edited by jackshunger on Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aegor

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Re: HLS "centrist" profs for clerkships

Post by aegor » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:43 pm
Good for you but I don't think I'm talking about you?
My mistake -- sorry.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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