2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:41 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:29 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:22 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:12 pm
Anyone who has been on the hiring side have any insight as to how a transfer to HYS might be perceived in the more competitive circuits/districts? Lets say T10% at at T1 for 1L then T10% at the new school (only on one semester due to covid).
With COVID-19, I imagine it's kind of hard to judge someone based on just one semester of grades at the new school unless you totally crushed it. But it's possible to do very well in the process—transfer friend got a couple of feeder judge interviews.
Some people just don't like transfers. Columbia, NYU, and Georgetown all get a legion every year.

Otherwise, you should be fine, as long as your good marks in are in black letter courses, which would show that you're able to perform on the same level as other YHS students.
Care to elaborate on the first sentence?

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:24 pm
Any movement from Harris (4th)?
Filled per OSCAR.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:26 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:06 pm
Any movement with Diaz, Wilkinson, or Wynn in CA4?
Diaz has interviewed and given offers.
For 2021 or 2022? His Oscar posting said 2021 was full before the plan opened but was willing to look at some for 2022.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:36 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:51 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:06 pm
Any movement with Diaz, Wilkinson, or Wynn in CA4?
Diaz has interviewed and given offers.
For 2021 or 2022? His Oscar posting said 2021 was full before the plan opened but was willing to look at some for 2022.
Has given offers for 2022-23.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:42 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:30 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:21 pm
Anon because I attend Columbia. But wow, according to this blog tracking which schools place the most recent grads into clerkships Columbia is doing worse than U. Montana, Georgia, and the University of Mississippi....
I always take those things with a grain of salt because they look at percentage of students going directly into clerkships. The vast majority of my CLS classmates with clerkships are doing them a year or two post-grad. I think so many CLS grads have big law money coming, there’s less rush to jump into clerking/so many people think “I’ll do it after a few years of money”
I feel this is true, but is not the only factor behind CLS having comparatively poor clerkship numbers. I suspect the biggest issue is a relative lack of "connected" professors. I could also see a lot of students saying they will take the biglaw money for a year or two then getting sucked into the lifestyle and never clerking.
I tend to agree the relatively low CLS clerkship numbers are based on a NY focus of most students, and the fact that those judges hire for years out. That being said, I am a CLS student with a DC Circuit clerkship (and a non-2/9/DC appellate clerkship with a good judge), and I received plenty of interviews outside NY without perfect grades and some through professor connections. The way schools have to report clerkships is to the absolute detriment of CLS because it only counts people clerking right out, and it misses people clerking for feeder judges and/or judges on 2/9/DC (judges that would only hire from schools like UVA if you were at the absolute top of the class and on law review) who are doing so with at least a year of work experience.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by InvisiblePineapple » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:22 pm

Anyone heard from Gerry Lynch, Edward Chen, Sack, Krause, Furman, Rakoff, or Flaum (other than the confirmation email Monday)?

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:33 pm

InvisiblePineapple wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:22 pm
Anyone heard from Gerry Lynch, Edward Chen, Sack, Krause, Furman, Rakoff, or Flaum (other than the confirmation email Monday)?
^also wondering about about Lynch (Gerry) Sack, Brody, Cote, Saylor, Reyes, and Vitaliano. Also I know this was mentioned before but Howard too

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:33 pm
InvisiblePineapple wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:22 pm
Anyone heard from Gerry Lynch, Edward Chen, Sack, Krause, Furman, Rakoff, or Flaum (other than the confirmation email Monday)?
^also wondering about about Lynch (Gerry) Sack, Brody, Cote, Saylor, Reyes, and Vitaliano. Also I know this was mentioned before but Howard too
Krause and Saylor have at least given offers

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:11 pm

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Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:37 am
Does having a recommender flagging your application with a judge basically guarantee an interview? (Assuming the prof knows the judge and is decently renowned). I ask because I know of friends who have had recommenders call judges, and they instantly get an interview (sometimes on the same day they apply). But, I also know friends (high grades, LR, etc.) who have recommenders call judges, and nothing happens. I imagine for competitive postings, there are so many recommenders calling that the judge can't possibly interview all of those candidates.
I can answer pretty definitively that this cycle at least, having recommenders call for you does not guarantee an interview. CCN top 5% + LR, SA at a "feeder firm," well-connected with the profs who make the calls, and not a peep from the 2 judges (whom we've placed with before) my profs called before they filled their positions. Also if anyone similarly situated is despairing at this point, I'm right there with you--42 apps, 2 interviews day one (1 well-known senior COA judge and 1 district judge), no offers. Got one more interview (from another senior COA judge) at the end of last week and waiting to hear back. This is an insanely competitive year.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:18 pm

2/9/DC clerk here. We got calls/emails from recommenders about ~30 applicants, so no, having someone reach out on your behalf did not guarantee an interview. However, if you did *not* have someone reach out, that was highly detrimental to your chances of getting an interview

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:29 pm

Does anyone have any insight into whether Dolly Gee is hiring/for which terms?

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:37 am
Does having a recommender flagging your application with a judge basically guarantee an interview? (Assuming the prof knows the judge and is decently renowned). I ask because I know of friends who have had recommenders call judges, and they instantly get an interview (sometimes on the same day they apply). But, I also know friends (high grades, LR, etc.) who have recommenders call judges, and nothing happens. I imagine for competitive postings, there are so many recommenders calling that the judge can't possibly interview all of those candidates.
I can answer pretty definitively that this cycle at least, having recommenders call for you does not guarantee an interview. CCN top 5% + LR, SA at a "feeder firm," well-connected with the profs who make the calls, and not a peep from the 2 judges (whom we've placed with before) my profs called before they filled their positions. Also if anyone similarly situated is despairing at this point, I'm right there with you--42 apps, 2 interviews day one (1 well-known senior COA judge and 1 district judge), no offers. Got one more interview (from another senior COA judge) at the end of last week and waiting to hear back. This is an insanely competitive year.

I've got very similar stats and connections -- only got 1 interview and that was on the first day, but thankfully got the offer after about a week of waiting. Otherwise total radio silence.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Wild Card » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:26 pm

In my experience, calls do not work unless your prof. is actually friends with the judge--and even then, the judge might only begrudgingly interview you and then reject you, to stay on good terms with your prof.

I would defer to the 2d/9th/D.C. clerk above about calls being necessary for the most selective COAs.

What I would do if I were applying to those COAs is not to ask profs, but to ask judge(s) for whom I'd clerked to go to bat for me. Because, if I went to NYU, say, I wouldn't want to dedicate my three years there trying to become bffs with Richard Epstein.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:11 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:37 am
Does having a recommender flagging your application with a judge basically guarantee an interview? (Assuming the prof knows the judge and is decently renowned). I ask because I know of friends who have had recommenders call judges, and they instantly get an interview (sometimes on the same day they apply). But, I also know friends (high grades, LR, etc.) who have recommenders call judges, and nothing happens. I imagine for competitive postings, there are so many recommenders calling that the judge can't possibly interview all of those candidates.
I can answer pretty definitively that this cycle at least, having recommenders call for you does not guarantee an interview. CCN top 5% + LR, SA at a "feeder firm," well-connected with the profs who make the calls, and not a peep from the 2 judges (whom we've placed with before) my profs called before they filled their positions. Also if anyone similarly situated is despairing at this point, I'm right there with you--42 apps, 2 interviews day one (1 well-known senior COA judge and 1 district judge), no offers. Got one more interview (from another senior COA judge) at the end of last week and waiting to hear back. This is an insanely competitive year.
If you’re K&E at Chicago, this does not line up with what I’ve heard from the couple of others I talked to, who got slammed with interviews without feeder firms or fancy connections. Maybe apply more broadly (politically or geographically)? 42 isn’t that many especially if you’re doing both COAs and DCs.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:47 pm

Can anyone with a competent clerkship office tracking system provide any intel on Chutkan, Friedrich, Nichols (DDC), Rogers, Sentelle (CADC), and Matsumoto (EDNY)? All are still open on OSCAR.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:19 pm

Wild Card wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:26 pm
In my experience, calls do not work unless your prof. is actually friends with the judge--and even then, the judge might only begrudgingly interview you and then reject you, to stay on good terms with your prof.

I would defer to the 2d/9th/D.C. clerk above about calls being necessary for the most selective COAs.

What I would do if I were applying to those COAs is not to ask profs, but to ask judge(s) for whom I'd clerked to go to bat for me. Because, if I went to NYU, say, I wouldn't want to dedicate my three years there trying to become bffs with Richard Epstein.
Don't think this is a realistic option for most people because that would require completing a previous clerkship before applying to the next, you're applying years down the road/multiple years out of school.

I just got a district clerkship and am applying for COAs now, and let's just say I'm skeptical my judge (or any judge) would call another judge to vouch for me before I even started working for them.

The way I'm doing it (and the more realistic way I suspect) is asking my judge to put me in touch with former clerks of hers who have clerked on COAs and setting up meetings with them, in the hopes that they take to me enough to put a word in with their judges. Idk if I should actually ask them to call though, that seems gauche. But just trusting that they will let their judge know on their own also seems like a risky bet.

It's so frustrating how undiplomatic networking is in this space. Sigh.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm

Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. Maybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. Maybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help
It’s literally part of their job to make calls like this. It’s honestly not a begging thing, you just ask your professor if they’d be willing to make some calls or emails and they’ll say yes or no. In my experience, they are glad to because they want to help you succeed. You refusing to do something that pretty much every clerkship applicant does is just making it harder for yourself for no reason. Not even trying to be disrespectful, I just genuinely think you could land even more interviews

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. aMybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help
I guess I don't understand this attitude. Just think of a call as an extra LOR. You were willing to ask profs to do those, so what is the difference between that, and asking them to make a call?

I am a current D.Ct clerk. I really feel for all of you going through the process. I guess my takeaway after being on this side of it is - clerking at the federal level means that you both had good grades and were lucky. No other way to put it than you have to get lucky. For that reason, I recommend that everyone buy as many lottery tickets (i.e. OSCAR apps) as possible.

In my judge's chambers, even after sorting by my judge's criteria (T6, top 10% - and yes, we do calculate GPAs, even for YHS - preferably with work experience at a top big law firm), we still have dozens and dozens of apps. A call from one of the judge's friends, a lawyer who knows the judge, or a well-known professor makes a big difference. So, to the extent that you can get profs to make calls, I recommend doing trying to get them to do so. It can't hurt, and can only help.

I'm so sorry that the system is this way. Fingers crossed for all of you.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. Maybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help
I guess I don't understand this attitude. Just think of a call as an extra LOR. You were willing to ask profs to do those, so what is the difference between that, and asking them to make a call?

I am a current D.Ct clerk. I really feel for all of you going through the process. I guess my takeaway after being on this side of it is - clerking at the federal level means that you both had good grades and were lucky. No other way to put it than you have to get lucky. For that reason, I recommend that everyone buy as many lottery tickets (i.e. OSCAR apps) as possible.

In my judge's chambers, even after sorting by my judge's criteria (T6, top 10% - and yes, we do calculate GPAs, even for YHS - preferably with work experience at a top big law firm), we still have dozens and dozens of apps. A call from one of the judge's friends, a lawyer who knows the judge, or a well-known professor makes a big difference. So, to the extent that you can get profs to make calls, I recommend doing trying to get them to do so. It can't hurt, and can only help.

I'm so sorry that the system is this way. Fingers crossed for all of you.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:40 pm

original anon. You are both right and I should change my approach.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. Maybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help
If you’re at Chicago, they probably made calls whether you asked them to or not. You probably need to have a conversation with Strahilevitz, etc. if you’re gunning for SCOTUS and want Dean Miles to go to bat for you with Srinivasan, etc. but I didn’t even know my writers and the clerkship committee had been calling (or that calls were much of a thing) until judges told me. They have it down to a science. It also makes it pretty artificial in that I believe that they game out pretty heavily which students get pushed to which judges (and control it completely for some judges like Easterbrook).

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:05 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. Maybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help
If you’re at Chicago, they probably made calls whether you asked them to or not. You probably need to have a conversation with Strahilevitz, etc. if you’re gunning for SCOTUS and want Dean Miles to go to bat for you with Srinivasan, etc. but I didn’t even know my writers and the clerkship committee had been calling (or that calls were much of a thing) until judges told me. They have it down to a science. It also makes it pretty artificial in that I believe that they game out pretty heavily which students get pushed to which judges (and control it completely for some judges like Easterbrook).
Interesting. how true was that apart from the top students? I imagine closer to median that well-connected professors and the dean do not want to expend political capital, but maybe they would for less competitive judges?

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Wild Card » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:16 pm
It’s literally part of their job to make calls like this. It’s honestly not a begging thing, you just ask your professor if they’d be willing to make some calls or emails and they’ll say yes or no. In my experience, they are glad to because they want to help you succeed. You refusing to do something that pretty much every clerkship applicant does is just making it harder for yourself for no reason.
The issue is that your professor may have been reluctant to recommend you in the first place.

For instance, say you're merely above median at CCN (low Stone/no cum laude) and weren't on law review, but you have some softs that would make you stand out--professional or life experience. Your profs. may have been willing to humor you by writing you a letter. But then, when you reach out to them and actually ask them to call or email, they'll think you're delusional and wasting their time, because they're under the impression that only magna+coif+LR or high-Stone/Kent+LR people can land clerkships.

So it can be tough and awkward for those who aren't at the very top, even at T6/T14 schools.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by LBJ's Hair » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:45 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:37 pm
Somewhat disappointing is that a lack of a call is a significant detriment to chances. It makes sense I guess, but it also seems like a race to the bottom. Maybe that is what it takes to get ahead, but I refuse to ask or beg my school or professors to make calls on my behalf. If they want to call on their own, that’s great. I do keep them informed because they are my recommenders. I do not have any connections or family or friends in law. I sent apps out and hoped for the best. Nothing too special, ~33% CCN, some pre-law school work experience, and have gotten a few interviews (COA and Dct). Regional ties help
If you’re at Chicago, they probably made calls whether you asked them to or not. You probably need to have a conversation with Strahilevitz, etc. if you’re gunning for SCOTUS and want Dean Miles to go to bat for you with Srinivasan, etc. but I didn’t even know my writers and the clerkship committee had been calling (or that calls were much of a thing) until judges told me. They have it down to a science. It also makes it pretty artificial in that I believe that they game out pretty heavily which students get pushed to which judges (and control it completely for some judges like Easterbrook).
This is more or less true at every law school for the top judges, FWIW. Very few students, if any, are gonna interview with a Srinivasan or Katzmann or w/e without a push from the right people.

To quote one feeder - "if I don't get a call from your dean, I assume you aren't the one."

It sounds unfair, but there are 3-4 spots, hundreds of students applying, and even just top 5% at HYS combined is what..30 students? 40? And you can't really tell the difference between top 5% and top 15% without a painstaking amount of work, piecing through each transcript.

From the judges' perspectives, it makes sense to rely on a few well-connected profs and the dean.
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