2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm

If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:46 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm
If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.
In a similar boat and totally sympathize with the frustration. It certainly seems to be the case for the vast majority of applicants that the mass-mailing strategy has a very low success rate. But you also have to remember that each judge is receiving probably at least a hundred applications for two to four positions. So assuming many of those are similarly competitive for the judge as you are, it's just downright mathematically improbable that even 50 applications will turn up a significant number of interviews without a connection to help your application along. I'm also struggling not to take it personally, but also trying to recognize at least on an intellectual level that it doesn't mean your accomplishments are trash.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:56 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:45 pm
Any news on Capser (D. Mass.)?
I'm also interested in whether Casper has extended interviews/offers/is done

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:56 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:45 pm
Any news on Capser (D. Mass.)?
I'm also interested in whether Casper has extended interviews/offers/is done
Datapoint: top 25% MVP, LR Board, note published, family connections to northeast and haven't heard anything from Casper.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by JimComeyGhost » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm
If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.
If it makes you feel any better: T10-14, LR, strong softs, great letters/recommenders, grades right at 33%, 150+ applications, crickets...

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:47 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:26 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:25 am
Anyone heard from state supreme courts (or DC court of appeals?). Can't tell if they move slower or if I just didn't make the cut.
Know friends with interviews at top state court in NY, PA, DC, NJ
Thank you! I'm curious about Washington, Alaska, NC, Maine, and Mass as well!
Highly recommend AK SC. At least in my experience that hiring happened closer to the fall (Aug-Sept)

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:40 pm

Anyone have any insight about the magistrate judge hiring timeline? After striking out on D.Ct. I'm thinking about applying to a few mag judges, but wondering if most have hired already.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm
If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.
I feel the same, but I feel more like it was all a wasted effort, and anger at the unhelpful advice from my school. Trying to find excuses to convince myself that it was worth applying -- good to work on cleaning up the writing sample, good to ask people for LORs and now knowing who is willing to rec me (and who isn't). But mainly it's more that I know if I hadn't applied I'd never know if I had a chance.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm
If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.
I feel the same, but I feel more like it was all a wasted effort, and anger at the unhelpful advice from my school. Trying to find excuses to convince myself that it was worth applying -- good to work on cleaning up the writing sample, good to ask people for LORs and now knowing who is willing to rec me (and who isn't). But mainly it's more that I know if I hadn't applied I'd never know if I had a chance.
Career offices need to do a better job communicating how competitive clerkship hiring is. A while ago on this thread someone from a T50 posted about how their school was pushing everybody to apply for clerkships. I think their intentions are good and they don't want to hurt people's egos, but I wager that the first cut in applications many chambers makes contains a large number of candidates for whom applying to AIII clerkships was largely a waste of time.

I also think CSOs use the fact that there are exceptions where candidates without superb credentials get clerkships as evidence that "you should just apply anyway! You never know what a judge is looking for!!1!1!" When the exceptions to the norm are actually people whose parents are the judge's
close friends or law school classmate or have some other incredibly influential connection.

BTW, I am saying this as someone who has a clerkship and talked with my judge (not a household name/feeder by any stretch) about who he hires/past clerks, and who knows a lot of people going through this process.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm
If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.
I feel the same, but I feel more like it was all a wasted effort, and anger at the unhelpful advice from my school. Trying to find excuses to convince myself that it was worth applying -- good to work on cleaning up the writing sample, good to ask people for LORs and now knowing who is willing to rec me (and who isn't). But mainly it's more that I know if I hadn't applied I'd never know if I had a chance.
Career offices need to do a better job communicating how competitive clerkship hiring is. A while ago on this thread someone from a T50 posted about how their school was pushing everybody to apply for clerkships. I think their intentions are good and they don't want to hurt people's egos, but I wager that the first cut in applications many chambers makes contains a large number of candidates for whom applying to AIII clerkships was largely a waste of time.

I also think CSOs use the fact that there are exceptions where candidates without superb credentials get clerkships as evidence that "you should just apply anyway! You never know what a judge is looking for!!1!1!" When the exceptions to the norm are actually people whose parents are the judge's
close friends or law school classmate or have some other incredibly influential connection.

BTW, I am saying this as someone who has a clerkship and talked with my judge (not a household name/feeder by any stretch) about who he hires/past clerks, and who knows a lot of people going through this process.
I don't think I was misled exactly, I was told I was competitive for less popular DCs but that it's still tough. But I do feel like I didn't get enough support with the softs that put you over the top.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:29 am

From the perspective of CS it makes sense to encourage 50 kids to apply. Maybe one will get lucky.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:25 am
Anyone heard from state supreme courts (or DC court of appeals?). Can't tell if they move slower or if I just didn't make the cut.
Judge Easterly on the D.C. Court of Appeals has extended invitations for 2021-22 already; Judge Deahl is done; Chief Judge Blackburne-Rigsby won't look at 2021-22 applicants until after Labor Day.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by stoopkid13 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:50 am

I said this last year and I'll say it again: OCI warps clerkship applicants' expectations. If you are competitive for clerkships, you likely had multiple interviews at OCI, and even multiple offers. You probably didn't need to mass-mail (although you may have mass-mailed anyway). For many applicants, OCI is their only experience job hunting in the legal industry, and for the KJDs it may be their only experience job hunting period.

But OCI is an aberration. Normal job hiring does not entail employers coming to your campus, setting up hospitality suites, and spending the whole day interviewing entry-level hires. Normal job hiring is mailing applications out into the void and sitting on pins and needles until you hear back. OCI firms make multiple offers for each spot; most jobs don't. Firms spend tens of thousands of dollars wooing you; most jobs don't. So try to keep that context in mind when thinking about your clerkship application experience.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by nixy » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:07 am

stoopkid13 wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:50 am
I said this last year and I'll say it again: OCI warps clerkship applicants' expectations. If you are competitive for clerkships, you likely had multiple interviews at OCI, and even multiple offers. You probably didn't need to mass-mail (although you may have mass-mailed anyway). For many applicants, OCI is their only experience job hunting in the legal industry, and for the KJDs it may be their only experience job hunting period.

But OCI is an aberration. Normal job hiring does not entail employers coming to your campus, setting up hospitality suites, and spending the whole day interviewing entry-level hires. Normal job hiring is mailing applications out into the void and sitting on pins and needles until you hear back. OCI firms make multiple offers for each spot; most jobs don't. Firms spend tens of thousands of dollars wooing you; most jobs don't. So try to keep that context in mind when thinking about your clerkship application experience.
I was thinking about posting something like this. I get the impression for some people, the clerkship application process is the first time they've really got turned down for something? I realize that's speculation, so I don't mean to overgeneralize. I get if your experience has been high undergrad grades --> high LSAT --> T14 --> at the very least decent grades --> OCI*, the clerkship hiring process is going to come as something of a shock. But it's not a commentary on you and your abilities, nor is it some unfair conspiracy. It's just what happens when there are way more applicants than positions, and judges (who hire every year or every two at the most) have a lot of other things they'd rather be doing and need to figure out how to pick 5-10 applicants to interview out of 400+ applications (and I'd wager there's a much smaller percentage of auto-rejects in that pool than in a lot of hiring situations). Some schools can definitely be more realistic about students' opportunities (my own pushed clerkships quite a lot, but at least was a little more realistic and heavily promoted state clerkships, which we had a lot of success with - for federal COA it was usually 1 person per graduating class, and fed DCt more like under 10), I get that. But it is probably helpful to think about the broader context for this.

*and I realize this trajectory by no means describes everyone here, though I think it probably describes some

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:59 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:25 am
Anyone heard from state supreme courts (or DC court of appeals?). Can't tell if they move slower or if I just didn't make the cut.
Judge Easterly on the D.C. Court of Appeals has extended invitations for 2021-22 already; Judge Deahl is done; Chief Judge Blackburne-Rigsby won't look at 2021-22 applicants until after Labor Day.
Thank you so much! Disappointed I didn't make the cut for Easterly but trying to stay optimistic! :)

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:33 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:07 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:39 pm
If people will indulge me in a rant and some hyperbole: At this point it's hard not to give in to despair. 50 rejections from judges throughout the country, ranging from the competitive to the run-of-the-mill, and others just sitting around, taunting me. I didn't expect anything in particular, but it's hard not to feel the sting after this much failure. Oh well, back to applying to any open job I can find, even though it won't turn out since the whole system runs on connections. Good luck to those special enough to have them.
I feel the same, but I feel more like it was all a wasted effort, and anger at the unhelpful advice from my school. Trying to find excuses to convince myself that it was worth applying -- good to work on cleaning up the writing sample, good to ask people for LORs and now knowing who is willing to rec me (and who isn't). But mainly it's more that I know if I hadn't applied I'd never know if I had a chance.
Career offices need to do a better job communicating how competitive clerkship hiring is. A while ago on this thread someone from a T50 posted about how their school was pushing everybody to apply for clerkships. I think their intentions are good and they don't want to hurt people's egos, but I wager that the first cut in applications many chambers makes contains a large number of candidates for whom applying to AIII clerkships was largely a waste of time.

I also think CSOs use the fact that there are exceptions where candidates without superb credentials get clerkships as evidence that "you should just apply anyway! You never know what a judge is looking for!!1!1!" When the exceptions to the norm are actually people whose parents are the judge's
close friends or law school classmate or have some other incredibly influential connection.

BTW, I am saying this as someone who has a clerkship and talked with my judge (not a household name/feeder by any stretch) about who he hires/past clerks, and who knows a lot of people going through this process.
current clerk and I agree entirely. I'm working for a dct judge (non-feeder) who says "no grade preference" on OSCAR, and we are vaguely open to that idea in the senses that someone who maybe is just outside top quarter has a really really incredible life story. we are also open to someone who is not at a T14, but they would have to be in the top few people in their class, not even top 5% probably. so while we are theoretically open to anyone, in the end almost every year we end up hiring top 10% from the top half of the T14. it's a very difficult process, much more difficult than OCI or law school admissions in my opinion. schools would save a lot of hurt feelings and mass mailing by communicating that.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:24 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:40 pm
Anyone have any insight about the magistrate judge hiring timeline? After striking out on D.Ct. I'm thinking about applying to a few mag judges, but wondering if most have hired already.
Only one SDNY MJ has begun interviewing. The others likely are still accepting.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:30 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:24 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:40 pm
Anyone have any insight about the magistrate judge hiring timeline? After striking out on D.Ct. I'm thinking about applying to a few mag judges, but wondering if most have hired already.
Only one SDNY MJ has begun interviewing. The others likely are still accepting.
Jumping on this thread. Received an interview invite with a MJ in EDNY this morning (after striking out with D.Ct), but I imagine in other districts they're moving slower.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by JimComeyGhost » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:25 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:24 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:40 pm
Anyone have any insight about the magistrate judge hiring timeline? After striking out on D.Ct. I'm thinking about applying to a few mag judges, but wondering if most have hired already.
Only one SDNY MJ has begun interviewing. The others likely are still accepting.
Any chance you can share which one it is?

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:17 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:46 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:59 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:25 am
Anyone heard from state supreme courts (or DC court of appeals?). Can't tell if they move slower or if I just didn't make the cut.
Judge Easterly on the D.C. Court of Appeals has extended invitations for 2021-22 already; Judge Deahl is done; Chief Judge Blackburne-Rigsby won't look at 2021-22 applicants until after Labor Day.
Thank you so much! Disappointed I didn't make the cut for Easterly but trying to stay optimistic! :)
At risk of generating false optimism that's not necessarily true. Her interviews / interview offers have been trickling out over the course of at least 1 week so she may not be done interviewing.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm

c/o 2020 adding a data point. Imo FedSoc membership (obv assuming you are a member) on resume helps (even if not in leadership) but it should be genuine because you will be asked about philosophy in interviews. CCN, above median, no journal. Mostly applied to Bush/Trump appointees as a proxy for judicial philosophy (say what you will of this). Got a few COA interviews and a few Dct interviews over the past couple weeks.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm
c/o 2020 adding a data point. Imo FedSoc membership (obv assuming you are a member) on resume helps (even if not in leadership) but it should be genuine because you will be asked about philosophy in interviews. CCN, above median, no journal. Mostly applied to Bush/Trump appointees as a proxy for judicial philosophy (say what you will of this). Got a few COA interviews and a few Dct interviews over the past couple weeks.
How did philosophy come up in your interviews? In mine, I was asked things like the following:
  • What is your approach to constitutional interpretation?
  • Which Justice(s) do you like best/is the best writer?
  • Can [X SCOTUS case] be defended from an originalist perspective?
  • Constitutional/statutory hypos
Anyway, good luck with your interviews and applications!

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm
c/o 2020 adding a data point. Imo FedSoc membership (obv assuming you are a member) on resume helps (even if not in leadership) but it should be genuine because you will be asked about philosophy in interviews. CCN, above median, no journal. Mostly applied to Bush/Trump appointees as a proxy for judicial philosophy (say what you will of this). Got a few COA interviews and a few Dct interviews over the past couple weeks.
How did philosophy come up in your interviews? In mine, I was asked things like the following:
  • What is your approach to constitutional interpretation?
  • Which Justice(s) do you like best/is the best writer?
  • Can [X SCOTUS case] be defended from an originalist perspective?
  • Constitutional/statutory hypos
Anyway, good luck with your interviews and applications!

A similar interview with a semi-feeder, had about 5 hrs of hypos that caused my brain to melt.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:21 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:26 pm
c/o 2020 adding a data point. Imo FedSoc membership (obv assuming you are a member) on resume helps (even if not in leadership) but it should be genuine because you will be asked about philosophy in interviews. CCN, above median, no journal. Mostly applied to Bush/Trump appointees as a proxy for judicial philosophy (say what you will of this). Got a few COA interviews and a few Dct interviews over the past couple weeks.
How did philosophy come up in your interviews? In mine, I was asked things like the following:
  • What is your approach to constitutional interpretation?
  • Which Justice(s) do you like best/is the best writer?
  • Can [X SCOTUS case] be defended from an originalist perspective?
  • Constitutional/statutory hypos
Anyway, good luck with your interviews and applications!

A similar interview with a semi-feeder, had about 5 hrs of hypos that caused my brain to melt.
Holy cow, is this kind of ideology-sleuthing common in FedSoc interviews? I had 3 interviews, 2 with ACS types and 1 with a nonideological Republican appointee, and none of them asked anything to sniff out my leanings.

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Re: 2021-2022 Clerkship Application Thread

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:15 pm

anon who started this little tangent. Seems to me they are common. Sometimes directly asking about judicial philosophy, sometimes in terms of cases, hypotheticals, doctrine. Lots of substantive questions. I enjoyed it because I think about that anyway outside of interviews

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