What should my targets be? Forum

[Anonymous User]

2L at S. 2/3 Hs, 2 book prizes, no law review but secondary journal. Working for a W&C/Munger/WLRK/Kellogg type place this summer. Ideally would love a 2d or 9th Cir. clerkship but I understand how tough those are. Very geographically flexible and would prefer appellate clerkships but would jump at NDCA, SDNY, EDNY, DDC.

I'm aware that much depends on recommenders calling judges and other random circumstances/events. Generally speaking, though, how do you think I should set my sights?

[LBJ's Hair]

what does 2/3 Hs translate to at SLS, class-rank wise

[cheaptilts]

2L at S. 2/3 Hs, 2 book prizes, no law review but secondary journal. Working for a W&C/Munger/WLRK/Kellogg type place this summer. Ideally would love a 2d or 9th Cir. clerkship but I understand how tough those are. Very geographically flexible and would prefer appellate clerkships but would jump at NDCA, SDNY, EDNY, DDC.

I'm aware that much depends on recommenders calling judges and other random circumstances/events. Generally speaking, though, how do you think I should set my sights?

Set them at the clerkships you’re interested in. Probably competitive for at least some judges in every district/circuit. Focus on the ones listed first. Leverage connections with professors.

[Anonymous User]

what does 2/3 Hs translate to at SLS, class-rank wise

I have no idea, since SLS doesn't officially rank. Based on variously educated guesses I've seen on TLS, I'd guess about top 15%.

[QContinuum]

what does 2/3 Hs translate to at SLS, class-rank wise

I have no idea, since SLS doesn't officially rank. Based on variously educated guesses I've seen on TLS, I'd guess about top 15%.

Top 15% at SLS should be competitive for just about any A3 court, though of course results will vary depending on who your recommenders are and how enthusiastic they are about you. But grades-wise, you should be competitive for NDCA/SDNY/etc. or any of the CoAs, 2/9 included. Apply broadly and you should do fine. Consider "less desirable" locales if you're appellate or bust - e.g., there are folks who've gone to Anchorage to clerk on the 9th Circuit.

[Anonymous User]

How about top 15% at HLS? I imagine the chances will drop a fair amount, but still worth at least applying to comparable judges?

[cheaptilts]

How about top 15% at HLS? I imagine the chances will drop a fair amount, but still worth at least applying to comparable judges?

I wouldn’t self select out of applying to at least some judges in every circuit with near-magna grades from basically any t14. Obviously way less of a chance the farther down the ladder you go, but at a school like
HLS you at least have a shot with several judges on each circuit, assuming good recs and/or work experience and/or extracurricular and/or diversity and/or fedsoc membership and/or good connections with the judge for whatever reason.

You’d all be better served talking to a clerkship adviser at SLS/HLS, and it seems like the better the grades, the better the adviser (and professor) is willing to help.

[Anonymous User]

HYSer here. Thoughts on including a quick explanatory note on grades (in resume or in a separate addendum)? Something like: "magna/coif cutoff is generally around x. Current gpa is y."?

[Anonymous User]

HYSer here. Thoughts on including a quick explanatory note on grades (in resume or in a separate addendum)? Something like: "magna/coif cutoff is generally around x. Current gpa is y."?

Don’t do it. Chambers tends to see enough applications to evaluate grade scale, and if the grades are good it’ll be clear without the specific honors or whatever. It’ll just highlight the fact, which doesn’t help you any. You want to stand out for what you’ve done, not what you haven’t done.

[Anonymous User]

How about top 15% at HLS? I imagine the chances will drop a fair amount, but still worth at least applying to comparable judges?

With comparable grades at HLS, I was told that DC Circuit and true feeders would be a stretch, but not so much of one that it wouldn't be worth applying everywhere you want. The marginal cost of each additional application is so low that you might as well buy yourself a lottery ticket and apply; you never know what on your application will grab a judge's attention.

[Anonymous User]

What about 3H 2P at HLS? No idea about class rank but I'm guessing top 40% or so. Is COA out of the question?

Sorry for hijacking but didn't want to create a whole new thread.

[LBJ's Hair]

if you don't even have a full year of grades and they're not particularly good, dunno why you'd be rushing to apply?

[Anonymous User]

if you don't even have a full year of grades and they're not particularly good, dunno why you'd be rushing to apply?

3H/2P at HLS is by most measures very good and puts you in cum laude territory if your grades remain consistent. COA is most definitely not out of the question, although you'd need to improve your grades if you were aiming for feeders. But COA judges in smaller/medium-competitive regions routinely hire HLS grads in cum laude territory

[LBJ's Hair]

sorry I probably sounded like a dick. a better answer is "it depends on your goals."

if you're fairly geographically flexible, don't care about clerking in competitive districts, then sure apply. if you'd prefer not to be in sorta random state X several years in advance, you'll almost certainly be a more competitive candidate in a year, even if your grades don't move up just bc of prof recs. and your grades should get better if you make a concerted effort to improve them, pick classes strategically, etc.

more general point, maybe this thread is a good place to discuss: I seriously question the credential value of non-competitive COA clerkships if you're gonna be working in a major market like NYC/DC/etc. that doesn't mean you shouldn't do them--you'll probably learn a lot. and sometimes it's cool to spend a year in a random place. you get that out of any clerkship. but if you're a 1L who wants to practice law in NYC and just want the gold star, like...no one really cares what you did on the 8th Cir for a judge they haven't heard of.

this doesn't mean people shouldn't do those clerkships, just that *you should do it because you think you'll enjoy it, not because your current/future employer will be super impressed.*

there's this weird culture in certain law schools where it's like "ok you have to clerk, preferably district court AND appellate" and people who weren't particularly interested in doing it commit to spend a year, potentially two of their life in place they don't want to live, several years in advance, for no reason other than other law students made them feel like they should. and they do it for all these other people who don't actually give a shit

[Anonymous User]

what does 2/3 Hs translate to at SLS, class-rank wise

I have no idea, since SLS doesn't officially rank. Based on variously educated guesses I've seen on TLS, I'd guess about top 15%.

SLS grad here and former clerk in one of the districts you mention. Top 15% seems a bit generous with two-thirds Hs, but you're in the ballpark of your grades being strong enough that they're not going to bar you from any of the courts you're interested in. I'd expect that if you apply widely within those districts you'll get bites. My judge certainly would've had us call you in if you applied to our chambers, you have better grades than I did. If you want appellate, apply widely. I think with those grades, even without SLR, you can focus on applying to appellate judges with good reputations and district judges in the areas you want to live. That's not to say you might not wind up whiffing and not getting an offer, but I'd be pretty surprised.

I'd also completely ignore the advice of the above, who says that there's a question of the credential benefit for COA judges in random markets if you go to NYC/DC/etc. People might not know your judge by name, that's true, but at my firm a COA clerkship was quite beneficial in terms of getting initial quality work and brief-writing experience, even compared to "prestigious" district clerks. I actually have the opposite view of the poster above; I think almost any COA clerkship sends a pretty standard signal in the workplace, and it makes no sense (unless you're going for SCOTUS, which your grades, though great, almost certainly are too low for) to spend a year of your life working for a miserable boss with slightly higher "prestige" than a great judge who has reasonable expectations and wants to mentor his or her clerks.

[BlackAndOrange84]

I'd also completely ignore the advice of the above, who says that there's a question of the credential benefit for COA judges in random markets if you go to NYC/DC/etc. People might not know your judge by name, that's true, but at my firm a COA clerkship was quite beneficial in terms of getting initial quality work and brief-writing experience, even compared to "prestigious" district clerks. I actually have the opposite view of the poster above; I think almost any COA clerkship sends a pretty standard signal in the workplace, and it makes no sense (unless you're going for SCOTUS, which your grades, though great, almost certainly are too low for) to spend a year of your life working for a miserable boss with slightly higher "prestige" than a great judge who has reasonable expectations and wants to mentor his or her clerks.

I second this advice against LBJHair's take on the abstract credential value of run-of-the-mill COA clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

I'd also completely ignore the advice of the above, who says that there's a question of the credential benefit for COA judges in random markets if you go to NYC/DC/etc. People might not know your judge by name, that's true, but at my firm a COA clerkship was quite beneficial in terms of getting initial quality work and brief-writing experience, even compared to "prestigious" district clerks. I actually have the opposite view of the poster above; I think almost any COA clerkship sends a pretty standard signal in the workplace, and it makes no sense (unless you're going for SCOTUS, which your grades, though great, almost certainly are too low for) to spend a year of your life working for a miserable boss with slightly higher "prestige" than a great judge who has reasonable expectations and wants to mentor his or her clerks.

I second this advice against LBJHair's take on the abstract credential value of run-of-the-mill COA clerkships.

I third this advice. I'm a COA clerk in a medium-competitive (non 2/9/DC) market and I'm currently applying for jobs in NY/DC. Can say with certainty that I would not have received two of my job offers if not for my COA clerkship, including one in an appellate group

[nixy]

Yeah, I don’t agree with LBJ’a hair about COA clerkships either. Maybe in some incredibly rarefied circles they’re so commonplace as to mean nothing without the imprimatur of a feeder, but I think that’s really unusual.

[lavarman84]

more general point, maybe this thread is a good place to discuss: I seriously question the credential value of non-competitive COA clerkships if you're gonna be working in a major market like NYC/DC/etc. that doesn't mean you shouldn't do them--you'll probably learn a lot. and sometimes it's cool to spend a year in a random place. you get that out of any clerkship. but if you're a 1L who wants to practice law in NYC and just want the gold star, like...no one really cares what you did on the 8th Cir for a judge they haven't heard of.

Shit, dude, I wish you would have told me a year ago who the "non-competitive COA clerkships" are. It would have saved me a lot of applying and interviewing. In my experience (from applying to every circuit except the Federal Circuit and interviewing with judges on a variety of different circuits), there is no such thing as a non-competitive COA clerkship.
(Although, I am open to the idea that there are a small handful of judges who are a lot less competitive because few people know when they're hiring or considering applicants.)

[Anonymous User]

3H/2P anon here. thanks for the advice everyone. No interest in feeders or anything like that and I'm actually targeting the secondary market where i'm from (not NY/DC/CA) so clerking in that circuit would be nice. I know it's too early but I just wanted to get a sense of whether my 2 Ps put COA out of reach or whether I can still be competitive if I maintain or improve my grades this semester. Which I know is an open question given how arbitrary they seem (except for lrw, I earned that H with my blood and sweat) and how smart everyone is here. It's very possible I do worse, who really knows.

One more thing: how does one get close to professors in a way that doesn't read "i am transparently sucking up to you for the purpose of advancing my career"? I know I need rec letters for the judges but whenever I talk to them it feels really artificial, like they know I really don't have a question about this one note case and that I'm only there so they can put a face to a name.

[Anonymous User]

3H/2P anon here. thanks for the advice everyone. No interest in feeders or anything like that and I'm actually targeting the secondary market where i'm from (not NY/DC/CA) so clerking in that circuit would be nice. I know it's too early but I just wanted to get a sense of whether my 2 Ps put COA out of reach or whether I can still be competitive if I maintain or improve my grades this semester. Which I know is an open question given how arbitrary they seem (except for lrw, I earned that H with my blood and sweat) and how smart everyone is here. It's very possible I do worse, who really knows.

One more thing: how does one get close to professors in a way that doesn't read "i am transparently sucking up to you for the purpose of advancing my career"? I know I need rec letters for the judges but whenever I talk to them it feels really artificial, like they know I really don't have a question about this one note case and that I'm only there so they can put a face to a name.

in my experience, professors don't really care that you're transparently sucking up. it's just part of their annual ritual of meeting with/recommending students, and they won't hold it against you (as long as you aren't unusually heavy-handed about it). but i will say that i tried to get around this, to some extent, by choosing small seminars in subject areas where i knew i would be a strong performer. that makes it easier both to have substantive conversations with the professor and to make a good impression.

if you're not interested in feeders and you're only in your second semester of 1L, you also shouldn't feel too rushed to make those connections. a lot of non-feeder COAs will still be considering apps throughout your 2L year and possibly into your 2L summer. so i'd focus on taking some strategic seminars during your 2L year.

[Laser Lady]

One more thing: how does one get close to professors in a way that doesn't read "i am transparently sucking up to you for the purpose of advancing my career"? I know I need rec letters for the judges but whenever I talk to them it feels really artificial, like they know I really don't have a question about this one note case and that I'm only there so they can put a face to a name.

If I were you, I would just be (reasonably) up-front about it. Find one or more of your professors who clerked (bonus points if the professor clerked in the location and/or for the type of judge you want to clerk for), and tell them, "Hey, I'm really interested in clerking, and I heard that you clerked for Judge So-and So. Do you have any advice on what a clerkship is like/how to get a clerkship/how useful a clerkship will be/how to get good recommendations for a clerkship?"

[Anonymous User]

One more thing: how does one get close to professors in a way that doesn't read "i am transparently sucking up to you for the purpose of advancing my career"? I know I need rec letters for the judges but whenever I talk to them it feels really artificial, like they know I really don't have a question about this one note case and that I'm only there so they can put a face to a name.

If I were you, I would just be (reasonably) up-front about it. Find one or more of your professors who clerked (bonus points if the professor clerked in the location and/or for the type of judge you want to clerk for), and tell them, "Hey, I'm really interested in clerking, and I heard that you clerked for Judge So-and So. Do you have any advice on what a clerkship is like/how to get a clerkship/how useful a clerkship will be/how to get good recommendations for a clerkship?"

3h/2p Anon. Yeah I was thinking of framing it this way. But I'm lucky enough that all of my professors who clerked, clerked for the Supreme Court and were far more successful than I am in law school (we all know the grades you need for SC) So they're likely going to read me as this overeager and slightly delusional gunner if I come at it like "I wanna be like you"

IDK, I'm likely being too self conscious, but that's my nature.

[lavarman84]

One more thing: how does one get close to professors in a way that doesn't read "i am transparently sucking up to you for the purpose of advancing my career"? I know I need rec letters for the judges but whenever I talk to them it feels really artificial, like they know I really don't have a question about this one note case and that I'm only there so they can put a face to a name.

If I were you, I would just be (reasonably) up-front about it. Find one or more of your professors who clerked (bonus points if the professor clerked in the location and/or for the type of judge you want to clerk for), and tell them, "Hey, I'm really interested in clerking, and I heard that you clerked for Judge So-and So. Do you have any advice on what a clerkship is like/how to get a clerkship/how useful a clerkship will be/how to get good recommendations for a clerkship?"

3h/2p Anon. Yeah I was thinking of framing it this way. But I'm lucky enough that all of my professors who clerked, clerked for the Supreme Court and were far more successful than I am in law school (we all know the grades you need for SC) So they're likely going to read me as this overeager and slightly delusional gunner if I come at it like "I wanna be like you"

IDK, I'm likely being too self conscious, but that's my nature.

You don't need to come at it that way. Just come at it like you want to clerk, period. You don't need to say, "I see you clerked for Justice ____; I want to clerk for the Supreme Court too." Just step up and talk to them. They're professors; this is nothing new.

[nixy]

"Hey, I'm really interested in clerking, and I heard that you clerked for Judge So-and So. Do you have any advice on what a clerkship is like/how to get a clerkship/how useful a clerkship will be/how to get good recommendations for a clerkship?"

3h/2p Anon. Yeah I was thinking of framing it this way. But I'm lucky enough that all of my professors who clerked, clerked for the Supreme Court and were far more successful than I am in law school (we all know the grades you need for SC) So they're likely going to read me as this overeager and slightly delusional gunner if I come at it like "I wanna be like you"

Saying "I'm interested in clerking and wondered if you have advice" isn't saying "I want to be like you."