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D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:05 pm
by Anonymous User
Hey all--
I'm a district court clerk, c/o 2015. My grades weren't spectacular. Something around middle of the class at a T14. My application cycle went extremely well--I had interviews with six judges, including two chiefs, in districts around the country. I took the first offer.
Inquire away.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:06 pm
by Anonymous User
To how many judges did you apply?
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:12 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:To how many judges did you apply?
30-40. I don't remember the exact number.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:12 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:To how many judges did you apply?
30-40. I don't remember the exact number.
Did you target judges who listed "no preference" w/r/t class standing?
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:15 pm
by lavarman84
Without having top grades, what do you think stood out to judges in your applications? What did you do to boost your application?
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:15 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:To how many judges did you apply?
30-40. I don't remember the exact number.
Did you target judges who listed "no preference" w/r/t class standing?
Not specifically, but I did rule out judges who made it clear that there was a hard line cutoff. For instance, if an opening said "Top 10% required" or "Law Review required," then I wouldn't apply. But I applied to a few that said "Prefer top 25%." I believe one of my interviews was with one of those.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:24 pm
by Anonymous User
lawman84 wrote:Without having top grades, what do you think stood out to judges in your applications? What did you do to boost your application?
Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:42 pm
by rpupkin
Anonymous User wrote:Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
I'm not surprised that you landed a bunch of interviews. A significant number of judges look specifically for a commitment to public interest.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:45 pm
by Jchance
Anonymous User wrote:
Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
Nice sell. This is like capitalizing on judges' altruism, a solid strategy nonetheless, especially to those who look to give back to the community.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:46 pm
by Anonymous User
Are you in a flyover state? Are you from a flyover state?
Congrats by the way. I have underwhelming grades as well, so I understand where you're coming from. My hope is to get a D.Ct. clerkship and then use that to transition to the government. I've definitely sent out more applications than you did, but only have a couple interviews. Any tip/ advice?
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:58 pm
by rpupkin
Anonymous User wrote:Any tip/ advice?
Although the OP has a nice story, he or she buried the lead. The initial post doesn't contain the primary reason for OP's success: sustained commitment to public interest work. If you're not a public interest person, I'm not sure the OP's experience is going to be instructive.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:26 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Are you in a flyover state? Are you from a flyover state?
Congrats by the way. I have underwhelming grades as well, so I understand where you're coming from. My hope is to get a D.Ct. clerkship and then use that to transition to the government. I've definitely sent out more applications than you did, but only have a couple interviews. Any tip/ advice?
Not in or from a flyover state. My only tip for the interviews is not to stress and to be your true self. If you made it to the interview stage it's because the judge already likes you on paper and wants to see whether or not they want to spend a year or two with you/invest in the time it takes to shape you into a functional clerk/attorney. Your first 3-6 months you won't be very efficient. The act of taking clerks straight out of law school instead of clerks with significant experience is one that indicates a judge's commitment to the role of mentor and to the betterment of the legal profession. IMO it's best to go into it with an eye on genuineness. I don't know how all judges are, but all of my interviews were just shooting the sh!#--no substantive questions. It was clear the purpose was for the judge to decide if (s)he liked me, thought I was the kind of person who could dogsit, could rely on me to be open/honest/ask questions when I don't know what's going on. Coming off as rigid would probably be the biggest fail. The only substantive question I got was actually from the judge who hired me. I was asked about a Rule 29 motion. I said I didn't know what that was. I got hired.
Don't stress. Congrats on getting those interviews!
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:35 pm
by Anonymous User
rpupkin wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Any tip/ advice?
Although the OP has a nice story, he or she buried the lead. The initial post doesn't contain the primary reason for OP's success: sustained commitment to public interest work. If you're not a public interest person, I'm not sure the OP's experience is going to be instructive.
(1) there are plenty of people on these boards w/ public interest experience.
(2) there are plenty of people on these boards with patent/tech experience, thus making them a sell for judges doing PPP.
(3) there are plenty of people on these boards with myriad life experiences that can make them appealing to certain judges.
Point being--do ALJ searches on westlaw to learn more about the judges to whom you're applying (I did this for every one), and google google google. If you find/feel a personality/moral/convictions/experience fit, play it up. Not all judges graduated cum laude or were on law review, but I imagine very few feel unqualified to be judges. Every human is unique--tap into your true self, release your light, and direct it toward similar wavelengths.
Or you can listen to this dude tell you that you can't do it. Your choice. My advisors were the same. They were of no help to me. They gave me spreadsheets with grades of the last five years of students who clerked, clearly to discourage me from wasting their time. Turns out they wasted mine.
If you want it, go for it and give it your all.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:47 pm
by rpupkin
Anonymous User wrote:
Or you can listen to this dude tell you that you can't do it.
You're completely misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that anyone "can't do it."
I'm sorry your advisers were so horrible. At my law school, the clerkship adviser (and the faculty) were well aware of which judges valued public interest experience, and encouraged students with PI backgrounds/aspirations to apply to those judges, regardless of grades.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:47 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:rpupkin wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Any tip/ advice?
Although the OP has a nice story, he or she buried the lead. The initial post doesn't contain the primary reason for OP's success: sustained commitment to public interest work. If you're not a public interest person, I'm not sure the OP's experience is going to be instructive.
(1) there are plenty of people on these boards w/ public interest experience.
(2) there are plenty of people on these boards with patent/tech experience, thus making them a sell for judges doing PPP.
(3) there are plenty of people on these boards with myriad life experiences that can make them appealing to certain judges.
Point being--do ALJ searches on westlaw to learn more about the judges to whom you're applying (I did this for every one), and google google google. If you find/feel a personality/moral/convictions/experience fit, play it up. Not all judges graduated cum laude or were on law review, but I imagine very few feel unqualified to be judges. Every human is unique--tap into your true self, release your light, and direct it toward similar wavelengths.
Or you can listen to this dude tell you that you can't do it. Your choice. My advisors were the same. They were of no help to me. They gave me spreadsheets with grades of the last five years of students who clerked, clearly to discourage me from wasting their time. Turns out they wasted mine.
If you want it, go for it and give it your all.
Thanks for articulating essentially the same experience I had except I was coming from a T2 years ago. Disowned by my school's clerkship committee and otherwise told to go play in traffic about my search for a clerkship. I went through the process completely on my own and made it work through nothing but my own persistence - no professor phone calls, insider connections, not a URM, etc.- until the stars aligned. Nice to see someone else buck the school reputation/law review/GPA prestige obsession that consumes these clerkship boards.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:04 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
I think it only consumes these boards because it also consumes a large part of the judiciary.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:24 pm
by Anonymous User
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think it only consumes these boards because it also consumes a large part of the judiciary.
You're right. I should have acknowledged that there is definite prestige fixation with federal judges to continue to hire their clerks using that criteria (it's disappointing that that is the way it is, and I'm biased obviously, but I think it's a loss for the judiciary). Perhaps I should have said these forums amplify that fixation.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:03 pm
by pie4ever
Anonymous User wrote:lawman84 wrote:Without having top grades, what do you think stood out to judges in your applications? What did you do to boost your application?
Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
OP, did you include your public interest commitment in your cover letter?
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:06 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Anonymous User wrote:Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:11 pm
by pie4ever
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
Ha, thank you. Sorry for not reading more carefully and clogging the feed. My career office discouraged me from mentioning any PI background in my cover letters, so good to know that others did things differently and were successful.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:15 pm
by rpupkin
pie4ever wrote:A. Nony Mouse wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
Ha, thank you. Sorry for not reading more carefully and clogging the feed.
My career office discouraged me from mentioning any PI background in my cover letters, so good to know that others did things differently and were successful.
Seriously? I can kinda see the value of that advice in the context of applying to firms (though even there I wouldn't categorically discourage applicants from mentioning past PI work), but it's ridiculous to discourage clerkship applicants from mentioning PI background or a sincere PI interest.
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:23 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
pie4ever wrote:A. Nony Mouse wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Before and during law school I had lots of the kind of public interest experience that progressives love, and I was on a full ride to my law school. I made clear in my cover letters that I plan to work in the public interest, and I tied the knowledge I'd gain from clerking to being able to provide holistic services to folks--aka that clerking would expose me to a broad array of stuff that would help me help clients in ways that go beyond my role in their particular case.
Ha, thank you. Sorry for not reading more carefully and clogging the feed. My career office discouraged me from mentioning any PI background in my cover letters, so good to know that others did things differently and were successful.
no worries.
it does suck that career offices are so bad at giving appropriate clerkship application advice. (Though my law school's current clerkship director, although a smart and lovely person, has never clerked, so...)
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:34 am
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:Anonymous User wrote:Are you in a flyover state? Are you from a flyover state?
Congrats by the way. I have underwhelming grades as well, so I understand where you're coming from. My hope is to get a D.Ct. clerkship and then use that to transition to the government. I've definitely sent out more applications than you did, but only have a couple interviews. Any tip/ advice?
Not in or from a flyover state. My only tip for the interviews is not to stress and to be your true self. If you made it to the interview stage it's because the judge already likes you on paper and wants to see whether or not they want to spend a year or two with you/invest in the time it takes to shape you into a functional clerk/attorney. Your first 3-6 months you won't be very efficient. The act of taking clerks straight out of law school instead of clerks with significant experience is one that indicates a judge's commitment to the role of mentor and to the betterment of the legal profession. IMO it's best to go into it with an eye on genuineness. I don't know how all judges are, but all of my interviews were just shooting the sh!#--no substantive questions. It was clear the purpose was for the judge to decide if (s)he liked me, thought I was the kind of person who could dogsit, could rely on me to be open/honest/ask questions when I don't know what's going on. Coming off as rigid would probably be the biggest fail. The only substantive question I got was actually from the judge who hired me. I was asked about a Rule 29 motion. I said I didn't know what that was. I got hired.
Don't stress. Congrats on getting those interviews!
Thanks! I'm pretty sure I only have interviews because I'm biglaw aspiring to be an ADA; most judges interviewing me were biglaw -> ADA's before becoming judge. And you're right that judges love mentoring kind-hearted people (I mean that sincerely). One post-interview rejection I got was a call telling me "the judge likes you, but she wants someone with more of a public interest focus, so she decided to hire [one of the other guys]"
(In all honestly, I'm not too upset. That guy is probably planning to do some good.)
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:21 pm
by Anonymous User
OP - first-bump from a fellow middle-of-my-T14 d. ct. clerk (I had experience + connections + PI commitment).
Re: D.Ct. Clerk w/ Underwhelming Grades Taking Q's
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:05 pm
by Waterfront_79
Anonymous User wrote:OP - first-bump from a fellow middle-of-my-T14 d. ct. clerk (I had experience + connections + PI commitment).
Can you elaborate on your experience? Externship? Real-life, paid work at a firm/gov't agency/state office?