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Hi all,

I'm an HYS student with reasonably good grades (70% Hs) and a publication although no LR. A prof told me today that I don't deserve my clerkship -- I'm clerking at the CoA level on the East Coast. I may want to apply for a district court clerkship, so here's my question: Should I remove this prof as a recommender and look for someone else? I probably want experience as a district court clerk and I don't want to sabotage my chances.

Edit: I should note that this prof was a recommender for my CoA clerkship.

Can you give some more context? It's hard to tell what this is all about.

Are you saying you think your professor would torpedo your district court applications with a bad letter? Why did your he/she say that you "don't deserve" your clerkship?

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all,

I'm an HYS student with reasonably good grades (70% Hs) and a publication although no LR. A prof told me today that I don't deserve my clerkship -- I'm clerking at the CoA level on the East Coast. I may want to apply for a district court clerkship, so here's my question: Should I remove this prof as a recommender and look for someone else? I probably want experience as a district court clerk and I don't want to sabotage my chances.

Edit: I should note that this prof was a recommender for my CoA clerkship.

Why are you even asking this quesiton? If the asshole said you dont deserve a job then you don't even use them as a reference. Why waste your time using a person who doesn't think highly of you?

sparty99 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all,

I'm an HYS student with reasonably good grades (70% Hs) and a publication although no LR. A prof told me today that I don't deserve my clerkship -- I'm clerking at the CoA level on the East Coast. I may want to apply for a district court clerkship, so here's my question: Should I remove this prof as a recommender and look for someone else? I probably want experience as a district court clerk and I don't want to sabotage my chances.

Edit: I should note that this prof was a recommender for my CoA clerkship.

Why are you even asking this quesiton? If the asshole said you dont deserve a job then you don't even use them as a reference. Why waste your time using a person who doesn't think highly of you?

I used him/her for a reference for my CoA apps, and that ended up working fine. It's just that his/her letter is good (I've read it), but he/she told me in office hours that I don't deserve the CoA clerkship that I got.

Why don't I deserve my CoA clerkship? Because the judge usually takes LR people, and I'm not on LR.

lol at pretending this could be Y or S

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all,

I'm an HYS student with reasonably good grades (70% Hs) and a publication although no LR. A prof told me today that I don't deserve my clerkship -- I'm clerking at the CoA level on the East Coast. I may want to apply for a district court clerkship, so here's my question: Should I remove this prof as a recommender and look for someone else? I probably want experience as a district court clerk and I don't want to sabotage my chances.

Edit: I should note that this prof was a recommender for my CoA clerkship.

Jesus Christ... law professors are truly a breed apart, but that is astoundingly callous.

I wonder what it's like being that socially retarded/autistic/sociopathic. Is the landscape of human affection and courtesy just a jumble of inscrutable rituals from the perspective of someone like that?

Sometimes I think legal academia's most important function is to provide a form of institutionalization for a particularly obnoxious segment of the high functioning insane. Too bad the lunatics are running the asylum.

Edit: Regarding the question, given the laughably mechanistic way in which this professor apparently reasons, hell, you may actually be FINE using him as a reference just so long as the judges to whom you're applying don't usually INSIST upon law review on a resume.

Look, we can't judge what he meant or what the context was. One of my recommenders said that I outperformed my credentials. It wasn't a criticism. He was in my corner and helped with the process. It was just an assessment from someone who doesn't do sugar coating.

Whether your recommender's comment was the same sort of thing, though perhaps said with even less tact, or a sign that you should pick someone who is in your corner, you have to decide for yourself.

(1) Ask to see the letter. Continue to use it if it's good. Ditch it if he won't (a) show it to you or (b) at the very least guarantee you it's strong.

(2) Ditch him from your reference sheet. My chambers will not call a prof who writes an LOR but isn't on the reference sheet. This may seem surprising, but I think it's standard practice, as some (particularly famous) profs have time to scrawl out a letter for a student they love but won't be available to chat on the phone about it.

(3) Related to (2), use the reference sheet system (it'll be the second page of your resume document on OSCAR) if you aren't already.


And cheer up, OP: Harvard has more lay prestige, and a more extensive alumni network, than Yale or Stanford, so the trade-off for this incident will come!

Do not use him as a recommender if you can't see the letter before he sends it. Even lukewarm letters can tank your chances.

fats provolone wrote:lol at pretending this could be Y or S

OP here: It could be either S or Y, too. I will neither confirm nor deny this.

Thanks, all, for the tips. This process is absolutely miserable -- to make other students' lives easier, I wish I could out the prof and the school, but I'm not going to do that. At least not right now.

Anonymous User wrote:

fats provolone wrote:lol at pretending this could be Y or S

OP here: It could be either S or Y, too. I will neither confirm nor deny this.

Thanks, all, for the tips. This process is absolutely miserable -- to make other students' lives easier, I wish I could out the prof and the school, but I'm not going to do that. At least not right now.

This really isn't a big deal. You go to HYS. If only I can have such a problem.

Anonymous User wrote:Thanks, all, for the tips. This process is absolutely miserable -- to make other students' lives easier, I wish I could out the prof and the school, but I'm not going to do that. At least not right now.

Are you even sure the prof meant it as a criticism? In context, I could see that comment being a compliment--i.e., you have something special that LR students don't.

so yeah, this:

Anonymous User wrote:Look, we can't judge what he meant or what the context was. One of my recommenders said that I outperformed my credentials. It wasn't a criticism. He was in my corner and helped with the process. It was just an assessment from someone who doesn't do sugar coating.

Whether your recommender's comment was the same sort of thing, though perhaps said with even less tact, or a sign that you should pick someone who is in your corner, you have to decide for yourself.

ggocat wrote: Are you even sure the prof meant it as a criticism? In context, I could see that comment being a compliment--i.e., you have something special that LR students don't.

Yeah, I get the feeling, based on my experience with socially awkward law professors, that he meant it sort of as a compliment. I doubt he would write a luke warm letter after having written one that helped you land COA.

Also, even if he really thinks you don't "deserve" the COA clerkship (whatever that means), he probably thinks you would be well-suited for the common district clerkship.

exitoptions wrote:

ggocat wrote: Are you even sure the prof meant it as a criticism? In context, I could see that comment being a compliment--i.e., you have something special that LR students don't.

Yeah, I get the feeling, based on my experience with socially awkward law professors, that he meant it sort of as a compliment. I doubt he would write a luke warm letter after having written one that helped you land COA.

Also, even if he really thinks you don't "deserve" the COA clerkship (whatever that means), he probably thinks you would be well-suited for the common district clerkship.

I've heard of profs saying similar things. In fact one particular professor at my HYS school came to mind immediately when I read OP. I read a letter by another professor at my school that basically said "this candidate isn't a deep thinker, but that makes them well-suited for a district court clerkship."

If you can get a letter that you know is effusive (even if it's from a less well-known prof) I say do that. Regardless of what this prof said or how they said it, your stats and prior clerkship will get you good looks from well-regarded d. ct. judges. It's not worth the risk of having a lukewarm letter from a fancy prof when you can get a good one from someone else.

this is bizarre.

Anonymous User wrote:

sparty99 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all,

I'm an HYS student with reasonably good grades (70% Hs) and a publication although no LR. A prof told me today that I don't deserve my clerkship -- I'm clerking at the CoA level on the East Coast. I may want to apply for a district court clerkship, so here's my question: Should I remove this prof as a recommender and look for someone else? I probably want experience as a district court clerk and I don't want to sabotage my chances.

Edit: I should note that this prof was a recommender for my CoA clerkship.

Why are you even asking this quesiton? If the asshole said you dont deserve a job then you don't even use them as a reference. Why waste your time using a person who doesn't think highly of you?

Why don't I deserve my CoA clerkship? Because the judge usually takes LR people, and I'm not on LR.

Are you f'n kidding me?

I'm a lowly d. ct. clerk who wasn't on LR. Judge could not care less whether someone is on LR.

He was inviting you to thank him for getting you this clerkship.

One of my recommenders balked when he asked me which journal I was on, and I answered none. He wanted me to check that I wasn't wasting my time and his time. Upon checking, I was advised to apply anyway. This prof. said he would recommend me anyway because I was a top student --- he just doubted it would make a difference without being on Law Review. I got a d. ct. clerkship I'm happy with.

tl;dr: your prof probably thinks highly of you as a student, and wrote you a good LOR, but doubts judges will care unless you have LR too.

You need to check the dates of the threads you're responding to, and not bump old threads for no reason. The original question was from 2014.

Skump wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all,

I'm an HYS student with reasonably good grades (70% Hs) and a publication although no LR. A prof told me today that I don't deserve my clerkship -- I'm clerking at the CoA level on the East Coast. I may want to apply for a district court clerkship, so here's my question: Should I remove this prof as a recommender and look for someone else? I probably want experience as a district court clerk and I don't want to sabotage my chances.

Edit: I should note that this prof was a recommender for my CoA clerkship.

Jesus Christ... law professors are truly a breed apart, but that is astoundingly callous.

I wonder what it's like being that socially retarded/autistic/sociopathic. Is the landscape of human affection and courtesy just a jumble of inscrutable rituals from the perspective of someone like that?

Sometimes I think legal academia's most important function is to provide a form of institutionalization for a particularly obnoxious segment of the high functioning insane. Too bad the lunatics are running the asylum.

Edit: Regarding the question, given the laughably mechanistic way in which this professor apparently reasons, hell, you may actually be FINE using him as a reference just so long as the judges to whom you're applying don't usually INSIST upon law review on a resume.

LOL @ jumble of rituals.

Makes me wonder if he was actually trying to be light-hearted. Or, rather, trying to express surprise that the judge actually took somebody w/out LR. And that's how it came out. Which is hilarious.

It's not just law profs, though. A lot of economists and financial folks in government are weird like that, too. Plus the enviros. I'm talking like tennis shoes with frumpy suit types.

good bump, worth reading this thread for the phrase "is the landscape of human affection and courtesy just a jumble of inscrutable rituals"

sounds like a HYS professor whose initials might be MM. not surprised to hear this at all, this professor has been known to say such things to students.

As someone on HYS LR, I thought that your professor's sentiment is a really strange one.

Yes, some number of LR folks get uber-prestigious clerkships, but between how write-on is structured, how arbitrary the entire application process is, and also personal preferences, the actual range of outcomes is pretty variable.

Skump wrote:I wonder what it's like being that socially retarded/autistic/sociopathic. Is the landscape of human affection and courtesy just a jumble of inscrutable rituals from the perspective of someone like that?

This is literally how I feel about social interaction. It is a series of arbitrary rules to be learned. It might as well be a set of Supreme Court rules, except there's no book to study from.